US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[EastUS]

If all of you are “fairly seniorâ€￾ then you did not loss any years under Nicolau. But instead what we hear about is the 17 years loss of DOH that Nicolau....

You all will forgive me if I don’t believe you anymore. The BS meter is pegged.

The BS meter is indeed pegged.

If you can't so much as even begin to comprehend the idea that some can actually exist without their entire focus being "What's in it for MEEE!!???", than you've my fullest sympathy, and I'll fairly note that any thought other than the most completely self centered sort do appear completely incomprehensible to west posters in general...which truly speaks volumes....

Here's the bottom line for me: I'll never vote nic into existence. I find the "award" to be utterly unprincipled, completely immoral, and frankly...entirely insane. Add to that "small issue" of personal principles; You would first have to come up with some "reason" I should ever prefer to have the "cream of the west" as flying partners over people I've flown with for many years (who would be devastated by nic in the seniority arena). Give me even ONE reason you feel I should ever vote you/yours into their seat instead? ...Perhaps the fascinating and respectfull conversation to be had?...

 

[nycbusdriver]

Take 18% now and go for 10% more next time rather than wait until 28% is offered (because it won't and more will come at the expense of some other contract section).

Well, that's part of the problem that the west doesn't seem to understand. "Go for 10% more next time" is meaningless to the east pilots simply because of our collective age. There will likely BE no next time for a great percentage of us, so we are not willing to sell out now and inflict the Nic on those of us who are left.

And I find it hilarious that now the westies are talking about some nebulous "modified" Kirby proposal. Who exactly modified it? What exactly are the modifications? Where do you guys get this stuff? There is no "modified Kirby" on the negotiating table as far as anyone (including the NAC) knows. So, let's stop talking about the "modified Kirby" until we see something concrete in that regard.

 

[luvn737s]

So the senior people, who are unaffected by the Nicolau award, would rather sit and get nothing AND not set the stage for further advancement next round than vote on an improved contract that would be attainable? I thought the seniors were this altruistic bunch with nothing but their F/O's pride in mind.

Any "modifications" to Kirby's opener should come from the Professional Negotiator (somebody ought to go wake him up) that USAPA promised.

 

[ROACLT]

So the senior people, who are unaffected by the Nicolau award, would rather sit and get nothing AND not set the stage for further advancement next round than vote on an improved contract that would be attainable? I thought the seniors were this altruistic bunch with nothing but their F/O's pride in mind.

Any "modifications" to Kirby's opener should come from the Professional Negotiator (somebody ought to go wake him up) that USAPA promised.

That is what they are doing. It was considered deficient in every way and they are countering section by section.

 

[cactusboy53]

That is what they are doing. It was considered deficient in every way and they are countering section by section.

You have to be kidding me. Did you read ANY of the closed sections of the agreement that were closed, or are you just shooting from the hip. BE HONEST.

If you are simply saying that "If it has anything to do with the west contract, it can't be any good...", then you are simply adding on to the huge pile of hyperbole & hubris that the AFO Club manufactures every day. I can tell you that after reading the proposal for STD vs. "giving a XXX hour sick bank" as the bridge to LTD, I was in favor of the west's STD. It is overall a better "bridge" to LTD and takes away the temptation to burn through that sick time (as some may).

USAPA has taken a process that was quite nearly through, and has cost all of us MILLIONS of DOLLARS that we will NEVER recover. They promised a new contract in record time, and here we sit a two year anniversary and NO WHERE CLOSE TO A NEW CONTRACT. Conversely our peers are signing new contracts in an economic period that should produce little. Figure that one out.

USAPA doesn't have the power or tools (well, OK there are some tools in USAPA) to accomplish what they have proposed. What they have delivered is the delay of the inevitable implementation of the Nicolau award, MILLIONS of dollars in WASTED LEGAL FEES that have produced few minor wins, and the possibility of MILLIONS of dollars of damages in the near future.

Pick up the award, read the legal transcripts, and educate yourself.

In the immortal words of Dean Wormer: "Mr. Dorfman: 0.2. Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

 

[luvthe9]

You are in the top 370? What a bonus!

Thanks a lot Nic for placing 500 plus East pilots above all America West pilots. Looks like a windfall to me.

Bonus huh? I was hired a couple of years before A-West was even formed, you really can't be that stupid or greedy to think that you should go ahead of me, although with the sense of entitlement that you guys have I guess I know the answer.

 

[luvn737s]

Bonus huh? I was hired a couple of years before A-West was even formed, you really can't be that stupid or greedy to think that you should go ahead of me, although with the sense of entitlement that you guys have I guess I know the answer.

Hired at a company that no longer exists. You can't continue to ignore that bit of crucial information. The airline called USAirways is not a continuation of the airline you used to work for by the same name.

 

[RSVP767]

For those who have a direct line to the mind of all east pilots - Have any of them bothered to call/write their reps demanding a T/A upon which to vote? How can you predict how someone will vote if they show no interest in a vote anyhow?

Doesn't it seem at all strange that you think the senior pilots will suffer indefinitely under LOA 93 just to protect the unfounded fears of those junior to them? Is it rational to think that a pilot would choose to have their reps withhold a T/A just so that an errant vote for more money/better benefits might not accidently occur?

Once USAPA decides to stop chasing their tail and puts forward a T/A then the majority of west pilots will join and combined with those east pilots who see the futility in protecting their fellow pilots from the boogeyman that USAPA created, the contract will pass and things will move on.

As the Dems in Washington are finding out, incremental wins sure beat the loss of an overreaching agenda. The US pilots won't wait until the perfect contract comes along to pass it. They will see that a modified Kirby is a good win and sets the stage for more in the next round. Take 18% now and go for 10% more next time rather than wait until 28% is offered (because it won't and more will come at the expense of some other contract section).

There is nothing to call or write our Reps about. We are miles apart, and years away from any meaningful contract proposal, and given the company's negotiating schedule, progression is at a snails' pace. The only indefinite suffering occurs under an implemented NIC, and those fears are not unfounded......they are a LOCK under NIC (a LOCK-OUT for many East F/O's who will never upgrade or get back to the left seat).

USAPA is not chasing their tail. They are the CBA charged with putting two polarized groups together. Most likely an insurmountable task given the positions of the two groups (ok, maybe they are chasing their tail). We are the 'boogeymen', East and West, polarized and cemented in our positions. Admittedly, both sides with some valid arguments. Nonetheless, here we are....fighting like children on the playground. Thank you NIC!

You are correct to say 'that perfect contract' won't materialize. We know that. Especially in this economic environment! So, we will take our 'incremental wins' (3%/year going forward.....my guess as to how the LOA93/84 grievence plays out......at a minimum) to beat the loss of an 'overreaching agenda' (NIC). It is going to be a long, long, turbulent road. So buckle up! Until a serious proposal is put forth in a TA, one that is palatable and beneficial to all involved, all this talk of a 'vote' is premature.

Now if you truly wish to understand the situation facing the East pilots, if you honestly want to get your finger on the pulse of the East pilots' minds, then ask yourself this question:

How may West pilots would vote 'yes' to a contract that contains a 10% pay raise, lowers the minimum fleet (to 250 aircraft?) AND implements a seniority list that virtually guarantees 85% of your (West) F/O's will NEVER upgrade?

Your answer will give you your own 'direct line to the mind of the East pilots'.

 

[N924PS]

Bonus huh? I was hired a couple of years before A-West was even formed, you really can't be that stupid or greedy to think that you should go ahead of me, although with the sense of entitlement that you guys have I guess I know the answer.

Mr. "I'm in the Top 370", most of that sense of entitlement rests on the East side.

America West pilots shouldn't have to pay for the rotten careers 2/3 of the East pilots have endured. It's not their fault USAir has been a crappy place to work since 9/11. Blame it on the bastards that flew the planes into the buildings and opportunistic Wolf and Gangwal who sliced and diced the airline in the aftermath. Blame ALPA for allowing outsourcing those jobs to Republic and other regionals.

If Nicolau had slotted the senior West pilots into the East 517 it wouldn't have been a big deal. You would still be enjoying your same lofty status and that senior Westie would be flying to HNL LIH or OGG. You could keep your premium wide body to yourself.

 

[RSVP767]

I can tell you that after reading the proposal for STD, I was in favor of the west's STD.

Please, please, keep your STD's. We don't want any of those over here!

Sorry! Couldn't pass that one up!

 

[RSVP767]

USAPA has taken a process that was quite nearly through, and has cost all of us MILLIONS of DOLLARS that we will NEVER recover. They promised a new contract in record time, and here we sit a two year anniversary and NO WHERE CLOSE TO A NEW CONTRACT. Conversely our peers are signing new contracts in an economic period that should produce little. Figure that one out.

aaahhh......It's called the NIC! Thank you George!

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

You have no idea of how wrong you are about the F/O group, or even the senior guys. They are not going to give in on the Nic. You are dreaming. Seriously, you have no idea how off you are, and you have no basis to say so. I fly with these guys, many different ones, all the time. You are going to get a NO vote to the end of time. They have been around too long to cave. Most were furloughed, or worked 17 yrs. and had a new hire put ahead of them. They are going to stick it to you when the vote comes. Denied. Sorry, but get ready for a long, protracted war.

If I had to guess I'd say you were in the cleary inner circle. Deny, Deny, Deny. Blather propaganda to the troops, make sure the truth is never told and never, never allow a poll or a vote. :down:

 

[nic4us]

Please, please, keep your STD's. We don't want any of those over here!

Sorry! Couldn't pass that one up!

Now that is funny.

But, in all fairness, usapa has its hands tied on this one. The company wants the West's Short term disability, the best in the industry, to go away. Yes, believe it or not, the West has an industry leading program in this respect. However, there were some pretty decent counters from the company (i.e. annual lump sums matching unused sick bank in a year etc.) that would have somewhat offset the West's loss. Did usapa reopen this section also?

 

[luvthe9]

Mr. "I'm in the Top 370", most of that sense of entitlement rests on the East side.

America West pilots shouldn't have to pay for the rotten careers 2/3 of the East pilots have endured. It's not their fault USAir has been a crappy place to work since 9/11. Blame it on the bastards that flew the planes into the buildings and opportunistic Wolf and Gangwal who sliced and diced the airline in the aftermath. Blame ALPA for allowing outsourcing those jobs to Republic and other regionals.

If Nicolau had slotted the senior West pilots into the East 517 it wouldn't have been a big deal. You would still be enjoying your same lofty status and that senior Westie would be flying to HNL LIH or OGG. You could keep your premium wide body to yourself.

The difference between you and me is you have that "I got mine attitude" that's why no one likes working with you, try not to be self centered. listen to the junior guys sometimes. That number 1 slot in PHX must be looking really good for you, and you can tell the west boys how you supported them through all this.

 

[RSVP767]

Now that is funny.

But, in all fairness, usapa has its hands tied on this one. The company wants the West's Short term disability, the best in the industry, to go away. Yes, believe it or not, the West has an industry leading program in this respect. However, there were some pretty decent counters from the company (i.e. annual lump sums matching unused sick bank in a year etc.) that would have somewhat offset the West's loss. Did usapa reopen this section also?

Industry leading STD's!

Seriously though. I don't know if this was reopened by USAPA. Just another issue among many yet to be resolved.