E
EastUS
Guest
My apologies sir. It seems the amnesia's all mine, and I did assign you another's posting in error. Any thoughts on where we should go from this point in the mess we have though?
US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th
- Thread starter prechilill
- Start date
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My apologies sir. It seems the amnesia's all mine, and I did assign you another's posting in error. Any thoughts on where we should go from this point in the mess we have though?
nostradamus
Veteran
- Dec 7, 2004
- 2,038
- 0
Just heard about the crew news meeting in PHX 08/26/08. john mcIIvenna accused east pilots of burning fuel while speaking to Doug Parker, Ceo of USairways. The former alpa president of the america west pilots told the CEO that his fellow pilots have seen the east pilots taxi with both engines and apu running. The CEO and director of ops said that the shallow accusations of the former alpa mec president of america west pilots is not backed by statistics.
Basically Mr Parker, CEO of USairways, told the west pilot group that the nic award is dependent on negotiations.
The pilots of america west were basically told that the nic award will not buy them a cup of coffee unless the negotiations of USAPA with the company says so.
nostradamus
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- Dec 7, 2004
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E
EastUS
Guest
The only thing that comes to mind is that some seem to think they can lick enough management boot heels to be perceived as cute and even just plain adorable.... and actually get anythng at all for it.....Truly pathetic. "The easties are just plain mean, rotten and awfull..Won't you please give us good little westies our Nic Daddy!!??..slurp/kiss/lick/etc" Now there's some true "leadership" for you..Sheesh!.
Management couldn't hope for a finer set of "Useful Idiots" in their wildest dreams = "Good Boy Johnny!!...Bark at those evil easties!..What a good little puppy you are!..Daddy's so proud of you!!"...."No No!..You've had your little callsign treat...just keep barking away....and we promise that we'll think about giving you a nice pat on the head...OK..There's a Good Boy!!"
Megasnoop
Veteran
Ouch, Nostra, you really know how to take the wind out of there sails. mcIlvenna ripping us. So what's new. No proof, just the usual wining, lying accusations and he got shot down by Parker. That's what they resort to, the big lie. Tell it long enough and you can convince your own people its true.
The NIC dependent on negotiations? How could that be? Pre-Chil, The "Lurk," Captain Electric, Leo and all the other west usual suspects dont know what there talking about? And our own Traitor-Jake is full of it? That Jeff Freund was right, the NIC "is in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept?" You could knock me over with a feather. Now their attorney shopping. If you look long enough, you can always find someone to take your money.
Still waiting for you to cite one case, Traitor-Jake. Shurely your ALPO handlers can come up with one. snoop
Off topic, but extremely urgent, must-read news:
All of the Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition as of yesterday. A reliable source said that one of the purchasers commented that while Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as heck ain't doin' it to Alabama ...
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
http://www.concernedpilots.org/DesktopModu...&Tabid=2912
ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx (application/pdf Object)
Rakestraw vs United Airlines
"a union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one group of employees over another"
Sorry I couldn't copy and paste the letter.
Megasnoop
Veteran
Sorry, Traitor-Jake. Nice try but different deal. your way off the mark, just like when you were shilling for ALPO. there's not a single former East ALPO gagger who wouldn't rather have USAPA lose, even if it costs you numbers. First, UAL never changed unions. Second, there is no seniority roster in place here to guggle. But thanks for shooting down any Empire pilot efforts to re-order the east list now in place. That's one less hassel for USAPA to deal with.
"concernedpilots.org" Yeah, thats a reliable source. ALPO-invented, ALPO-funded and ALPO-staffed. 20% of East pilots can't be wrong!
So, one more time, T-J, cite one case where the courts will not allow USAPA to negotiate whatever they want. Just one. snoop
OP
prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
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- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #114
Snoop, no matter how much you want that upgrade, it isn't going to happen. You are blinded by your own emotions. USAPA doesn't have a case to bring to court and this is why we are almost five months into your union debacle and there has not been any discussions between USAPs and the company on selectively reordering the seniority list. You guys are going nowhere for a reason.
E
EastUS
Guest
:blink: Ummm...OK.....Whew!
Well..the bottom line is that Mr. Parker has again stated that any seniority issues will be determined within Union-Company negotiations...period. It's really that simple. People can seek to twist the facts of the situation around indefinately....and/or twist themselves around the axle indefinately....and not change any aspect of that reality in the slightest......
The Nic exists as an historical piece of Alpa paperwork...and nothing more. Show me/all where the nic's being used at any level, in any way, shape or form as "the list" within ANY aspect of actual reality? USAPA has no reason whatsoever to "challenge" anything, nor seek to "selectively reorder" a "list" that only exists as a paperwork fantasy. Furloughs/seat vacancies/domicile bids...NOTHING is being determined by ANY aspect of Nic. There are currently two lists..east-west..and there will be one resulting from contract negotiations and adoption....period. Is ANY of this even beginning to finally sink in?
OK..The company "accepted" the list...they've also accepted hundreds of Christmas cards over time..and any "Ho Ho Ho!" contained within means nothing, unless and until negotiated into actual existence within a contract. Again: Is ANY of this even beginning to finally sink in?
"Emotions" have nothing to do with any of it...save to render some wholly unable to reason it seems.
machtuck
Senior
- Aug 11, 2008
- 262
- 0
Parker: "we have TWO seniority lists, and two contracts to follow, we are acting in accordance with each seniority list when it comes to these furloughs..."
We are dealing with the legal bargaining agent...not a unit out west...so, no, you may not review our numbers.....
hmmmm.
We are dealing with the legal bargaining agent...not a unit out west...so, no, you may not review our numbers.....
hmmmm.
Megasnoop
Veteran
Chil, I guess you dont read my posts. Int'l FO/IRO still works well for me. DOH/LOS or NIC, my only block-holder upgrade before age 65 (if I last that long) is on a narrow-D. I prefer 8 legs a month to 8 legs a trip. Unlike you, I'm not blinded by that upgrade lottery ticket that was so close, but didn't happen. Even with the LOS with fences, you're not going to dis my relative position and what I bid. Too bad you blew LOS off. Better than what your going to get.
Your source on that? Our leadership holds the cards close to the vest. If we're going nowhere, at least NIC is gone. snoop
Although I do not believe that seniority issues will be negotiated I will say this....
If indeed they were to be negotiated you must understand that Parker knows how badly the east wants DOH. He is a master of negotiation and my guess is that if we do end up with a usapa suggested list our top captain pay scale would be somewhere around $50./hr and days off would be around 6/mo., not to mention all of the reductions in other benefits. When the usapa negotiators finally work out that hard earned contract I will finally cede that your side has won. Until then I will continue to be amused at the banter on this board.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
from CLT base update letter Misguided Fuel Training
As we move away from the ill-fated and ill-advised fuel training of 8 of our most senior pilots, the Company is hoping that this poorly planned event fades into our memories and goes away. Your leadership will not allow this to occur until positive action by the Company to not only apologize to the 8 affected pilots but to the entire pilot group for stepping outside the bounds of our contract and the AQP program. The USAPA Safety and Training Committees are actively seeking closure on this issue with the Company and want assurances from all concerned that this type of intimidation and behavior will never again be used against any of our pilots. We are asking our pilots to stay informed on this issue and know that the entire BPR is firm in its resolve to defend Captain's Authority, and to prevent any further occurrence of this type of disciplinary action by management in the future.
Be Careful Out There
On Monday, August 25th, LAS weather caused several minimum fuel diversions into numerous airports on the West Coast. Flight 781, a 757, was dispatched into LAS with a scheduled landing fuel of 11,500 lbs. The Captain on this flight was one of the 8 Captains that were called in for fuel school. He was brought into fuel school for adding fuel on 17% of his flights with an average increase of 2790 lbs. This 30 year Captain, with approximately 10 years of experience on the 757, had personal policy based upon his experience that he would land with no less than 10,000 lbs for east coast destinations, and 14,000 lbs in LAS due to the lack of available nearby alternates. Monday, due to his recent experience with the fuel training discipline, he elected to go with dispatched fuel load. Upon arrival in the LAS terminal area there was a severe thunderstorm on the airport with microbursts that closed the airport. The flight was directed into a holding pattern with 11,500 lbs on board and after one turn the crew elected to proceed to their alternate of ONT. Due to traffic and weather they declared minimum fuel yet ATC vectored them east for 10 minutes to climb to 24,000 ft due to restricted airspace. The crew flew to ONT at long range cruise and eventually landed with 5000 lbs, well below the minimum landing fuel for the 757. Once on the ground they saw 8 other minimum fuel US Airways flights and took an extensive delay before returning to LAS.
The point of this story is that this Captain was disciplined by our flight operations and training department for using his experience, and for doing what he was taught prior to the recent fuel schooling. The dispatchers are being pressured by our management to reduce arrival fuel loads, and now that intimidation is being applied to our Captains. As a result, some of our pilots are attempting to adjust their safety margins. We implore each and every one of our Pilots to exert your authority and exercise your judgment to keep each and every one of your flights in the "green." The unfortunate negative effect of the recent fuel "training" is how our pilots are thinking while operating their flights. This further demonstrates our points on this issue and we all know that the use of intimidation as discipline can lead to disaster. Do not let this Management influence your safety concerns regarding your operations. We must all be good Captains and be fully aware of our operational needs; enforce your final Captain's Authority to maintain the ultimate in safety.
This is another clear cut example that has been created by the flawed corporate culture at US Airways. Their attitude of "By shooting a few they will educate the rest" is not the way we should be doing business. Again, we all understand the need for fuel conservation but when intimidation is put into the safety net, bad things can and will happen. That being said, Be Careful Out There!
As we move away from the ill-fated and ill-advised fuel training of 8 of our most senior pilots, the Company is hoping that this poorly planned event fades into our memories and goes away. Your leadership will not allow this to occur until positive action by the Company to not only apologize to the 8 affected pilots but to the entire pilot group for stepping outside the bounds of our contract and the AQP program. The USAPA Safety and Training Committees are actively seeking closure on this issue with the Company and want assurances from all concerned that this type of intimidation and behavior will never again be used against any of our pilots. We are asking our pilots to stay informed on this issue and know that the entire BPR is firm in its resolve to defend Captain's Authority, and to prevent any further occurrence of this type of disciplinary action by management in the future.
Be Careful Out There
On Monday, August 25th, LAS weather caused several minimum fuel diversions into numerous airports on the West Coast. Flight 781, a 757, was dispatched into LAS with a scheduled landing fuel of 11,500 lbs. The Captain on this flight was one of the 8 Captains that were called in for fuel school. He was brought into fuel school for adding fuel on 17% of his flights with an average increase of 2790 lbs. This 30 year Captain, with approximately 10 years of experience on the 757, had personal policy based upon his experience that he would land with no less than 10,000 lbs for east coast destinations, and 14,000 lbs in LAS due to the lack of available nearby alternates. Monday, due to his recent experience with the fuel training discipline, he elected to go with dispatched fuel load. Upon arrival in the LAS terminal area there was a severe thunderstorm on the airport with microbursts that closed the airport. The flight was directed into a holding pattern with 11,500 lbs on board and after one turn the crew elected to proceed to their alternate of ONT. Due to traffic and weather they declared minimum fuel yet ATC vectored them east for 10 minutes to climb to 24,000 ft due to restricted airspace. The crew flew to ONT at long range cruise and eventually landed with 5000 lbs, well below the minimum landing fuel for the 757. Once on the ground they saw 8 other minimum fuel US Airways flights and took an extensive delay before returning to LAS.
The point of this story is that this Captain was disciplined by our flight operations and training department for using his experience, and for doing what he was taught prior to the recent fuel schooling. The dispatchers are being pressured by our management to reduce arrival fuel loads, and now that intimidation is being applied to our Captains. As a result, some of our pilots are attempting to adjust their safety margins. We implore each and every one of our Pilots to exert your authority and exercise your judgment to keep each and every one of your flights in the "green." The unfortunate negative effect of the recent fuel "training" is how our pilots are thinking while operating their flights. This further demonstrates our points on this issue and we all know that the use of intimidation as discipline can lead to disaster. Do not let this Management influence your safety concerns regarding your operations. We must all be good Captains and be fully aware of our operational needs; enforce your final Captain's Authority to maintain the ultimate in safety.
This is another clear cut example that has been created by the flawed corporate culture at US Airways. Their attitude of "By shooting a few they will educate the rest" is not the way we should be doing business. Again, we all understand the need for fuel conservation but when intimidation is put into the safety net, bad things can and will happen. That being said, Be Careful Out There!
E
EastUS
Guest
You're entitled to your beliefs, although they effect nothing...and I agree..just your last posting has provided much amusement.
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