US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[GorgeousGeorge]

So how do you feel about USAPA doing absolutely nothing to further the plight of your hungry ex-furloughees? Is USAPA even serious about challenging Nicolau in court, or were you all just suckered again by your union?

According to Jeffry Freund, your own merger counsel, there is nothing to challenge. Nicalou was an ALPA bargaining position with no enforceable seniority rights. Only ALPA's constitution gave it any weight. There is new union, it's called USAPA which is compelled to establish seniority according to its own C & BL. It won't be an ALPA bargaining position established by weak guidelines.

Members of AOL, and AWAPPA might want to consider your comment on who is being suckered.

 

[traderjake]

There is a merged seniority list under our current CBA. It's is the only list unless a new one can be negotiated by USAPA.

Previous case law indicates that the courts will not allow USAPA to negotiate a DOH/LOS seniority list.

The fact that USAPA doesn't like the list does not mean it does not exist.

 

[EastUS]

There is a merged seniority list under our current CBA. It's is the only list unless a new one can be negotiated by USAPA.

Absolutely, and irrefutably correct as always Trader...which, of course, is why the furlough selections were done directly from that list...Oh!..sorry....nevermind.......

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

There is a merged seniority list under our current CBA. It's is the only list unless a new one can be negotiated by USAPA.

Previous case law indicates that the courts will not allow USAPA to negotiate a DOH/LOS seniority list.

The fact that USAPA doesn't like the list does not mean it does not exist.

Everyone knows Seham's and USAPA's legal opinion. Why don't you read Freund's(AWA meger counsel) legal opinion contained in his brief in the previous ALPA lawsuit in the court of the District of Columbia.

There is no list, there was a bargaining position arrived at under ALPA meger guidelines. ALPA was compelled to use all means to see it implemented, USAPA is under no such obligation.

As East pointed out the furloughs are according to the individual contracts because as far as the law and the company, two lists and agreements still exist. Freund argued that the Nicalou list has no enforceable seniority right because quite simply as a bargaining position it is subject to negotiation with US Airways. At the end of the day, they control everything in the contract.

By the way, previous case las suggests that longevity is the only methodology that is non arbitrary and withstands DFR issues.

 

[Megasnoop]

There is a merged seniority list under our current CBA. It's is the only list unless a new one can be negotiated by USAPA.

Previous case law indicates that the courts will not allow USAPA to negotiate a DOH/LOS seniority list.

The fact that USAPA doesn't like the list does not mean it does not exist.

Give it a rest, Jake. Cite the "previous case law" that says courts wont let USAPA to negotiate whatever list they want to. To make it easier for you, just cite one case where a new union was stopped by a court from negotiating whatever list they wanted before a previous list was IMPLEMENTED. Just one. At best, for you, Jake, this is new territory, no one's ever been there. At worst, your own attorney spelled it out, the list is nothing more than a negotiable document. And USAPA isn't going to negotiate it.

The NIC list exists but it's not in the single contract. In fact, there still isn't a single contract. ALPO is no longer on property. According to your own attorney, it was up for negotiations. Why do you refuse to address those facts? Because you konw you got a loser argument? snoop

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Give it a rest, Jake.

It's a waste of time dealing with Jake, Snoop. He was an ardent supporter of the Give Away Gang. There is an old saying, "You can't fix Stupid."

 

[electricjet98]

How do you think it best to proceed from where things are in this mess?

Let's make the happy assumption that Prechilled's standard wisdom, as posted in the reply above, isn't truly universal out west...all videos and "we hate you guys" proclamations in evidence to the contrary. We all do know that everyone's not completely insane out west, and let's start from there.

Well, the patronizing and condescending attitude is starting to get old once again. I'll leave you with this thought. BOTH sides have legitimate complaints as to the attitude and actions of the other side as well as the outlook of progress going forward. Until we all learn and accept that...this will continue to be a broken record.

I'm off to the Mogollon Rim area of central Arizona for a few days of hiking, four-wheeling, shooting and fishing (along with more than a few cervesa and good outdoor cooking)! A million acres of Ponderosa Pine at 6000 to 8000 foot elevation, cool temps and the elk should be just starting to bugle anyday!

Have a great Labor Day weekend, everyone!

 

[Megasnoop]

It's a waste of time dealing with Jake, Snoop. He was an ardent supporter of the Give Away Gang. There is an old saying, "You can't fix Stupid."

Yeah, I know. Speaking of the old Gagger crowd and "let my daddy vote," I saw Garland the other day looking a bit subdued, no eye contact. He might hold onto the left seat for the rest of his career courtesy of USAPA, but his ego can't admit whos responsible.

Now, the "best" of Prechil (digging through all 18 of his posts this week):

Here is another question for you- why would the west even negotiate with you at this point after you angry fo's have shown your true colors? When are you going to play by the rules?

You see, bud, trust is something you lost a long time ago (not that you care) so the bridge to a happy ending in this mess has pretty much been blown up by the angry furloughed fo's driving the USAP fantasy. I really can't believe someone like you can even fail to recognize the consequences of your own actions these past three years.
So, here is what we have learned on the west: The only way to deal with your kind is in the courts. That is the setting all events will play out. There is no point in dealing directly with the east- you guys have proven that is a dead end.
Actions speak louder than words, my friend. See you in court...

Truth is, we don't have to negotiate with you at all and we don't need your trust. If you don't join, your irrelevant. Your still living in the past. USAPA never agreed to anything. USAPA has its own rules and theyll follow them or theyll be gone. You need to talk to ALPO about why they didn't force the list and a contract on both sides when they had the chance. BTW, no USAPA signatures on any document I saw. Quit confusing the new CBA, USAPA, with the old one, ALPO.

Actions "these three years?" 80% of our pilots didn't like ALPO's actions over the past 3 years or the past 6 years, so we got rid of them and it took at least 60% of our CAs to get the job done. The CAs took the biggest hit on the pension. Go ahead sue away.

So we have two advertised honor guard pilots from the east that won't answer the question: Why can the west trust you now?
Anyone else from the east care to field this question??? Thanks in advance.
See you in court...

In court or wherever, chill. But the truth is, your irrelevant unless you join and pay dues. We don't really care if you trust us or not and we don't have to answer your questions.

You see, we can't really do anything until USAPA does something.
Going on five months now and they have yet to approach the company about throwing out Nicolau. A reasonable person can conclude there may be some internal problems with their lofty promises they made to the hungry animals back from furlough.

10-4, good buddy. Doing nothing must be driving you up a wall. I thought you were going to "see us in court" to force NIC into the contract. We're not negotiating our own list right now, negotiations going nowhere, your source on that?

So how do you feel about USAPA doing absolutely nothing to further the plight of your hungry ex-furloughees? Is USAPA even serious about challenging Nicolau in court, or were you all just suckered again by your union?

(Nicolau represents the combined seniority list as per the transition agreement, it is legal and binding. Dual ratification of any contract is still in effect- there are two pilot groups represented by one union.)

Then why aren't you in court forcing it into negotations? Legal and binding? Your old merger attorney said it was negotiable. So which is it? Lastly, USAPA dosn't have to challenge NIC in court. Its dead as far as were concerned. Dual ratification? Maybe if ALPO is still on property, but theyre gone. snoop

 

[prechilill]

The fact that USAPA doesn't like the list does not mean it does not exist.

Well said.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Lastly, USAPA dosn't have to challenge NIC in court. Its dead as far as were concerned. Dual ratification? Maybe if ALPO is still on property, but theyre gone. snoop

Well said.

 

[ussnark]

There is a merged seniority list under our current CBA. It's is the only list unless a new one can be negotiated by USAPA.

Previous case law indicates that the courts will not allow USAPA to negotiate a DOH/LOS seniority list.

The fact that USAPA doesn't like the list does not mean it does not exist.

Actually, there is not a "merged list". There is an "arbitrated list" that has three preconditions, it must be accompanied with one, each, ratified merger agreement and can only take effect under ALPA before one can call it a "merged seniority list".

The nic is a "position" and means nothing without those preconditions. As you likely know, there are many interpretations of what you mean by "negotiate", so, perhaps you mean something else, but, who are you going to negotiate with? certainly not the company, because they can only "accept" a list, not attempt to modify it. Negotiations between the two pilots groups, I guess is what you may mean.

Please list any historical court action that "will not allow USAPA to 'negotiate' a DOH/LOS seniority list, keeping in mind that USAPA is, in this case, negotiating with itself.

It might clarify things if you would keep your "lists" straight define "negotiation" for us.

 

[Sir Lurk-A-Lot]

Lol! We have finally gotten to the "well said" wars.

In that case I see your "well said" and raise you a SO THERE!

Actually pretty funny compared to the broken record that is usual in this recycled thread.

 

[EastUS]

Lol! We have finally gotten to the "well said" wars.

In that case I see your "well said" and raise you a SO THERE!

OH YEAH!!?? Seriously sir; any thoughts on reasonable notions for going forward? You previously posted the idea of dismissing "DOH Blah Blah Blah" from the USAPA charter and electing a President from the west. Do you honestly believe such notions to be at all reasonable at this time? I certainly hope not, and I'm open to any rational discussions here. Of course; that takes at least two participants to have any shot at.

 

[EastUS]

I'll leave you with this thought. BOTH sides have legitimate complaints as to the attitude and actions of the other side as well as the outlook of progress going forward. Until we all learn and accept that...this will continue to be a broken record.

I've no argument with that observation sir. Have a great few days away from all the "fun" we're all having with the mess we've all got to deal with.

 

[Sir Lurk-A-Lot]

OH YEAH!!?? Seriously sir; any thoughts on reasonable notions for going forward? You previously posted the idea of dismissing "DOH Blah Blah Blah" from the USAPA charter and electing a President from the west. Do you honestly believe such notions to be at all reasonable at this time? I certainly hope not, and I'm open to any rational discussions here. Of course; that takes at least two participants to have any shot at.

You either must have me mixed up with someone else or I have amnesia. Can you find the post where I said such thing because I surely don't remember typing that.