US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[EastUS]

I certainly will agree with you on the national seniority list. That doesn't address the DOH issue, however.

Really?..I'd think that had Alpo gotten off it's tail..that we'd not now even have reason for this discussion.

"Yet the shear mention of what real Date of Hire means, you start singing a different tune." Show me where, in any way shape or form..I've ever been or started "singing a different tune"? I'm all ears here.

" It is so easy to blame ALPA, isn't it? It's ALPA's fault, that's past history. The attorney has spoken,etc.,etc., etc.. Don't you get it, it was the pilots on the property not ALPA." Before you proceed further sir; understand that all of us here have recently endured the most intensely orchestrated, massive campaign of Alpo FUD, attempted fear mongering, batch lots of outright lies, and wholesale "justification" attempts for their utter incompetance... in all of history, and yet one more tiresome alpo shill's likely to have precious little effect at this time. Proceed forward at your pleasure now...and yes, yes..we all "know" that everything ever done by alpo's the complete fault of the line pilots, and not alpo in any way at all.....Next?

"If there is one reason to abhore the existence of USAPA it is because of the inconsistencies you and others display." Oh DO, please good sir, instruct me as to any "inconsistencies", within any position of personal principles, that I've shown here.

"Principles and morals define the character of true men and women." No kidding?...Really?..Gosh!!..I never even thought of that before!!...and,...ummm..err..I must naturally assume that you have some reasons for personally asserting that you've any surplus of such? Ok then; What are they?

Note that the "loudest" Champion of "INTEGRITY MATTERS" previously to post here...proved himself to be an utter fraud as a human being = a totally fraudulent "war hero"..and it's been my experience in life that those who most grandly assign themselves as paradigms for the "character of true men and women"..tend to have the least to personally offer up themselves....

 

[nycbusdriver]

I certainly will agree with you on the national seniority list. That doesn't address the DOH issue, however. There is one distinct difference between you and the Shuttle/Empire pilots on the property. You left Eastern, Shuttle merged with USAir and Empire Airlines merged with Piedmont Airlines. They have a Date of Hire just like you printed on the back of their company ID. From here it obviously gets sticky for some of you. The Constitution and By-Laws said Date of Hire, and the Date of Hire Drum was being beat loudly in the USAPA corner for everyone in the east to here, which brought USAPA to the property. The East pilots were so happy, they were beside themselves. Yet the shear mention of what real Date of Hire means, you start singing a different tune. It is so easy to blame ALPA, isn't it? It's ALPA's fault, that's past history. The attorney has spoken,etc.,etc., etc.. Don't you get it, it was the pilots on the property not ALPA.

If there is one reason to abhore the existence of USAPA it is because of the inconsistencies you and others display. Principles and morals define the character of true men and women. True professionals. USAPA may be the CBA for all of us now, but the analogy I see is that of the wolf in sheeps clothing with the wolf coming from the same pack as ALPA!

What you are proposing was considered by USAPA and rejected on advice of the attorneys. A union cannot go in and juggle a functioning seniority list to advantage or disadvantage anyone. Had they tried to do so, THEN there would be lawsuits. I think the Rakestraw vs. UAL decided that ALPA couldn't do a similar manipulation with a functioning seniority list over there.

Of course, we will now get the Nic touts trying to tell us that the Nic list is functioning, but the company makes it clear by their handling of the furloughs right now that it is NOT.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I certainly will agree with you on the national seniority list. That doesn't address the DOH issue, however. There is one distinct difference between you and the Shuttle/Empire pilots on the property. You left Eastern, Shuttle merged with USAir and Empire Airlines merged with Piedmont Airlines. They have a Date of Hire just like you printed on the back of their company ID. From here it obviously gets sticky for some of you. The Constitution and By-Laws said Date of Hire, and the Date of Hire Drum was being beat loudly in the USAPA corner for everyone in the east to here, which brought USAPA to the property. The East pilots were so happy, they were beside themselves. Yet the shear mention of what real Date of Hire means, you start singing a different tune. It is so easy to blame ALPA, isn't it? It's ALPA's fault, that's past history. The attorney has spoken,etc.,etc., etc.. Don't you get it, it was the pilots on the property not ALPA.

If there is one reason to abhore the existence of USAPA it is because of the inconsistencies you and others display. Principles and morals define the character of true men and women. True professionals. USAPA may be the CBA for all of us now, but the analogy I see is that of the wolf in sheeps clothing with the wolf coming from the same pack as ALPA!

You are projecting your anger on issues that simply are past changing and in the "wouldn't it have been nice" category.

"Wouldn't it have been nice if ALPA had changed with deregulation and created a National Seniority List and altered the dynamic of the union with a unifying force to protect against competitive forces, a cyclical industry, bad management, etc."

"Wouldn't it have been nice if ALPA had stood by the Air Traffic Controllers in 81' and probably have stopped the beginning of the assault on organized labor that took place during the Reagan years"

"Wouldn't it have been nice if ALPA hadn't abandoned the Braniff Pilots in 82 and the ones that felt abandoned and crossed at CAL in 83 and helped break the union never did"

"Wouldn't it have been nice, if ALPA has better understood the profession and the changes of deregulation and not fouled things up so bad with the CAL strike"

and so on and so forth....... they didn't change and morphed into a Law Firm first and foremost, a Corporation second, and a labor union a distant third. Now they are gone from US Airways.

USAPA is about changing and fixing the here and now and establishing some basic union principles, doing away with the gravy train, and making an independent union as streamlined and efficient as possible in delivering representation according to its charter.

Anybody who was paying attention understood that the DOH plank of the Constitution was for the here and now and going forward. There was numerous letters during the campaign on established seniority and why Nicalou was not and would never be established unless introduced and ratified into a joint contract. The nature of those opinions was that reordering a list would be difficult, throwing out ALPA and it's flawed bargaining position(Nicalou) was doable and the perfect right of the pilot group.

Maybe you didn't understand that but most did.

 

[EastUS]

Maybe you didn't understand that but most did.

As fully demonstrated by the election results.......

 

[Megasnoop]

I certainly will agree with you on the national seniority list. That doesn't address the DOH issue, however.

KTM300, a national seniority list would be good for all of us, but won't work in our industry. Too many training costs and disruptions as carriers grow, shrink, go out of business. The only industries that have national (international) seniority lists are those where your a free-lancer, working out of a union hiring hall. One example I know first-hand because my uncle was in it for a while after WWII, was the seafarers' union. He'd work a trip for one line, take some time off and then go back to the hiring hall for the next job. National seniority ruled on jobs. Your benefits were from the union hall, not the shipping line. You just contracted yourself out. The line paid the union, which paid you.

It'll never work or happen for pilots. You'd need uniform training standards. Airlines are't going to let unions dictate who they hire. And what union? Suppose the airline was non-union. No, too many problems. Whenever pilots face shut-downs, layoffs, or feel they are being screwed in a merger, we float the idea of a national list. We are so predictable.

The East pilots were so happy, they were beside themselves. Yet the shear mention of what real Date of Hire means, you start singing a different tune. It is so easy to blame ALPA, isn't it? It's ALPA's fault, that's past history. The attorney has spoken,etc.,etc., etc.. Don't you get it, it was the pilots on the property not ALPA.

Attempting to redefine DOH to suit your own definition is desparation. One thing USAPA is doing right now is trying to stop the furloughs. First step, the notice of dispute just filed on the large RJs. ALPA ignored this obvious violation of the TA for almost two years. USAPA jumped right on it after digging up the data. According to our leadership, there will be more disputes filed in coming weeks. This will save more West jobs than East jobs. I'm no good at putting up links so maybe someone else will put up the entire USAPA update. I know none of this is going to make a Westie happy. You'd rather have USAPA fall on its face and the company win. Then you could say "I told you so." Sorry, but USAPA is going to deliver. None or our attorneys are drinking buddies with Jerry Glass. snooper



Mr. Al Hemenway
Vice President, Labor Relations
US Airways, Inc.
111 Rio Salado Parkway
Tempe, Arizona 85281

RE: Transition Dispute # 8/Operation of Large Small Jets

Dear Mr. Hemenway:

In accordance with the provisions contained in Section X © of the Transition Agreement, dated September 23, 2005 between the US Airline Pilots Association and US Airways, the Union is referring the above referenced matter to Arbitrator Richard Bloch for final resolution.

In accordance with Section X (E) of the Transition Agreement, the Board of Adjustment will hear the dispute commencing not later than thirty (30) days after referral of the issue. Arbitrator Bloch has indicated his availability on December 8, 9 or December 11, 12 in Washington, DC. Furthermore, he has agreed to advise the parties of any cancellation in his schedule that would allow the issue to be heard at an earlier date. Please advise the Union of which set of dates the Company will agree to schedule this issue. The union will agree to either.

I have instructed Captain Tracy L. Parrella, BPR Grievance Committee Chairman to coordinate the scheduling of this dispute.

Respectfully,
Stephen Bradford
President, US Airline Pilots Association

 

[prechilill]

If there is one reason to abhore the existence of USAPA it is because of the inconsistencies you and others display. Principles and morals define the character of true men and women. True professionals. USAPA may be the CBA for all of us now, but the analogy I see is that of the wolf in sheeps clothing with the wolf coming from the same pack as ALPA!

If DOH is good enough for the AWA pilots, it is good enough for everybody, top to bottom. Unfortunately, the hollow arguments being presented here by the USAPs contradict each other and they cannot even get their stories straight. Cohen and Weis stated changing unions does not have any bearing on seniority yet we are where we are now because a few angry FO's sold a fantasy to the east pilots.
TIme is not on Bradford's side.

So, where is the DOH list and when is it going to be "offered" (to borrow the term from you NYCBusdriver ) to the company? USAPA stated a vote for USAPA is a vote for DOH, so where is the DOH part?

 

[prechilill]

What you are proposing was considered by USAPA and rejected on advice of the attorneys. A union cannot go in and juggle a functioning seniority list to advantage or disadvantage anyone. Had they tried to do so, THEN there would be lawsuits. I think the Rakestraw vs. UAL decided that ALPA couldn't do a similar manipulation with a functioning seniority list over there.

Of course, we will now get the Nic touts trying to tell us that the Nic list is functioning, but the company makes it clear by their handling of the furloughs right now that it is NOT.

Can you please define what a function seniority list is. I couldn't find any case law history on that term and there is nothing with the NLRB. Oh wait, you made this up too! That's why I couldn't find it anywhere...

Functioning seniority list- now that is a funny twist to help you justify your own greed. And you wonder why the west doesn't want to deal with you types. After what has happened to the Empire pilots, why in the heck would we trust you little devils???

So, where can I see USAPs functioning seniority list? LOL Anybody have one around? Anyone?

 

[machtuck]

Chili, did you set an alarm to get an early start today?
Perhaps a hobby for you...no?

I have a suggestion that you should consider: why don't you let the Empire pilots deal with their own business...or are you an Empire pilot?

Didn't think so.

You (above others) seem to be more interested in the battle at hand than the subject at hand. You have no dog in the Empire pilots issues, if they have any. I know you shoot before you aim, but this has been hashed over already...see, a FULLY EXECUTED CONTRACT has occurred SEVERAL times over the years setting the East list in place...to reorder the East under a signed and codified list is not legal...or wise.

YOUR issue is not the same...

(I'll slow down for ya...)

East seniority list
West seniority list
NIC

NO properly executed CBA...

hmmmm.

Go back to bed...or whatever you do when you're not here.

 

[EastUS]

And you wonder why the west doesn't want to deal with you types.

Ummmm..... because we don't meet your dress code standards? Honestly; Do yourself a favor and take a breath...seriously..you're gonna' pop a blood vessel or two otherwise.

 

[prechilill]

Ummmm..... because we don't meet your dress code standards? Honestly; Do yourself a favor and take a breath...seriously..you're gonna' pop a blood vessel or two otherwise.

Aneurysms are much more prevalent in the aging population, please be careful.
How is the USAPA mob going to argue "principles" when they have none to uniformly apply?

 

[machtuck]

Key word obove is offer. Thanks for the clarification of the truth, busdriver. You may want to pass that on to your friends... So, the only combined list the company has afterall is Nicolau.
I love how you all contradict each others stories, though. Too funny.

I'd like to explore this, chili, remind me...you guys are threatening to SUE the company in order to FORCE them to implement the NIC...right? Let me get this straight: your lawyer "offered" the NIC (as an ALPA sanctioned bargaining position) to the company. Now, you're trying to FORCE them to abide by it with no joint contract....and you're splitting words with NYCbusdriver over the word "offer"...?

West= FORCE
East = OFFER

do I have this right?

I used to have a small terrier...ferocious little guy...energy beyond measure. He would challenge and attack any dog, of any size, with great vigor.

He also chased his tail in circles...so funny.

Sound familiar?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Can you please define what a function seniority list is. I couldn't find any case law history on that term and there is nothing with the NLRB. Oh wait, you made this up too! That's why I couldn't find it anywhere...

Functioning seniority list- now that is a funny twist to help you justify your own greed. And you wonder why the west doesn't want to deal with you types. After what has happened to the Empire pilots, why in the heck would we trust you little devils???

So, where can I see USAPs functioning seniority list? LOL Anybody have one around? Anyone?

Get yourself a dictionary and look up functioning. It's one that is actively doing its job. The Nic is theoretical.

It's not my own greed. I was a Piedmont captain by the time AWA started turning its first part 135 Dash 8 prop. My seniority number is well north of 300 on the east list and on the Nic list. I'm senior to all you west whiners no matter how you cut it, so greed is not my motivation. Fairness is.

USAPA has not proferred a combined list simply because they have chosen not to at this point. I have no idea why, but as I said previously, anyone with access to the east and west lists can probably come mighty close to what the USAPA list will look like. What we don't yet know is what USAPA will provide in the way of fences to protect your pathetic, low-yield west flying from east pilots, and keep the whining babies out of the bases that actually are keeping this airline afloat. (See the Aug 28 PHX Pilot Crew News, and watch Doug Parker explain that to you.)

 

[machtuck]

So, the only combined list the company has afterall is Nicolau.

So...I was looking for some fashion tips...so I thought I'd cue up the newest crew news again:

and I would like to call your attention to Parkers remarks under the pilot furlough topic when asked about out of seniority furloughs and what kinds of "lists" the company has...or doesn't have...

and listen closely...

"we don't have a combined list..."


hmmmmm.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

So...I was looking for some fashion tips...so I thought I'd cue up the newest crew news again:

and I would like to call your attention to Parkers remarks under the pilot furlough topic when asked about out of seniority furloughs and what kinds of "lists" the company has...or doesn't have...

and listen closely...

"we don't have a combined list..."


hmmmmm.

You are after all as you suggested earlier talking to a small terrier. They are great but comprehension skills leave a little to be desired.

 

[machtuck]

You are after all as you suggested earlier talking to a small terrier. They are great but comprehension skills leave a little to be desired.

Yes...I've so noticed. I just thought I might help chili get a grasp on what Parker thinks he has in his hand...I keep hearing what the west "thinks" he has...and he very clearly says what he does NOT have within the first 60 seconds of his response to the furlough question.

Just for the record...