US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[EastUS]

We on the west are for the most part polite individuals and we try to return favors whenever possible. So far, we owe you guys a couple of lawsuits, a burning of over 1 million in negotiation costs and of course, a couple more years without a contract. We look forward to reciprocating everything you guys out east have passed our way.

Despite the standard threats and rantings contained in your "polite" posting, many west folks that I've met or "talked" with via the net, are indeed very decent people, and it's just a completely sad business that the two groups find themselves in as toxic a situation as could ever be engineered within a labor group. For that; I place no blame on any specific individuals, but rather the "processes" within an utterly insane, and entirely worthless "merger policy", that essentially mandated whimsical arbitration as the end result. We are where we are now, and must move forward from here.

No one doubts that the west will sue. That changes nothing in the overall picture.

 

[EastUS]

I am not attempting to obfuscate the present position. This isn't a spin tactic.
CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND WHO YOU WANT TO REPRESENT YOU!

BS. Next spin case?

 

[prechilill]

Despite the standard threats and rantings contained in your "polite" posting, many west folks that I've met or "talked" with via the net, are indeed very decent people, and it's just a completely sad business that the two groups find themselves in as toxic a situation as could be ever be engineered within a labor group. For that; I place no blame on any sepcific individuals, but rather the "processes" within an utterly insane, and entirely worthless "merger policy" that essentially mandated whimsical arbitration as the end result. We are where we are now, and must move forward from here.

No one doubts that the west will sue. That changes nothing in the overall picture.

Two lawsuits later along with a forced union change due to a bunch of elderly men throwing a temper tantrum, no contract and what does that give you? Figure it out.

 

[EastUS]

Two lawsuits later along with a forced union change due to a bunch of elderly men throwing a temper tantrum, no contract and what does that give you? Figure it out.

"..and what does that give you?" An alpoid and nic-free enviornment. "Figure it out." You'll perhaps pardon all of us if none see fit to earnestly indulge any lectures from you on temper tantrums....😉

On the "bunch of elderly men" I'll further note that your wholesale disrespect for all other people but yourself affords ample insight into any supposed fantasies you have of "character, honor,etc"..and is again clearly evidenced by your posting on the callsign issue = Prechilled: "but maybe this person, after having reached their full potential in life in a simple, customer service field, just doesn't realize how clueless they are." Some introspective time spent before your mirror might serve you well..especially as to any proper contemplation of "clueless".......

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I guess it was only a matter of time before you had to bring the attorney into this debate. Bully for you!

We have all tried to throw attorneys names around, hiding behind the idea that my attorney is better than your attorney. My attorney is smarter than your attorney. I don't care what Seham briefed. He hasn't always made the right call.

I am merely asking from one pilot to another pilot your position on date of hire like the constitution and by laws outline. I am not attempting to obfuscate the present position. This isn't a spin tactic. You may not like the idea of date of hire for the Shuttle pilots or empire pilots, but I'm sure their DOH means something to them and they may see USAPA as recognizing something that you should too! But alas you choose not to. How sad. Am I now to understand that USAPA thinks that if the Shuttle/Empire pilots don't say anything and because Seham has spoken, DOH is what ALPA says it is! Holy S#%T!

CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND WHO YOU WANT TO REPRESENT YOU!

This issue was brought forward to the USAPA BPR. They reviewed it, were briefed on the applicable legal issues by the union's counsel and as the list in place has been codified by many contracts it is considered settled. I might not like the answer, you either but that issue has been put to rest. Just more to be upset about how ALPA has shepherded the profession through the years. Fortunately, they are no longer an issue.

My position on DOH is that it is a benchmark of trade unionism and is something fully embraced by other professions who lack the ego-centric arrogance of pilots and understand that they are blue collar labor, with specialized skills. Pilots are nothing more than a factory worker or dozer operator, whose skills produces a product called an ASM. They operate heavy equipment just like a bulldozer operator and in terms of labor, an ASM is the same as a Graded Road. It's using a skill set in a specific class and craft to produce an end result. DOH should have been the benchmark for any and all mergers and not just those specific to US Airways.

USAPA is going to move forward and attempt to recognize what the terms labor and union mean but sadly, there is years and years of ALPA mistakes to be addressed. USAPA is in place to do the right things going forward and some past issues can be rectified going forward and some not and that's too bad but again the past is hung around the neck of ALPA and the things that can't be changed, should be vented at them.

The profession as whole has no understanding of true unionism and really has struggled to fit into that world. A lot of it has to do with ego and individualism and unwillingness to accept their career choice is a blue collar career. USAPA will do a much better job than ALPA because it isn't a clearing house for union dues and all of its efforts and resources will be focused on issues much closer to home but until the profession as a whole, all 60,000-70,000 pilots better understands its nature and their own, there isn't going to be any resurrection to the glory days of the past. Thats my .02 cents.

 

[KTM300]

BS. Next spin case?

BS? Next spin case? What are you implying?

DOH was the theme song from day one of USAPA's existence along with numerous differences between itself and ALPA, ensuring those that voted for Bradford and company was a vote for the professional pilot and their contribution based on DOH. USAPA over and over distanced itself from the practices of ALPA, except on this issue, yet you claim that I am spinning something. Don't you see the hypocracy in your position?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

BS? Next spin case? What are you implying?

DOH was the theme song from day one of USAPA's existence along with numerous differences between itself and ALPA, ensuring those that voted for Bradford and company was a vote for the professional pilot and their contribution based on DOH. USAPA over and over distanced itself from the practices of ALPA, except on this issue, yet you claim that I am spinning something. Don't you see the hypocracy in your position?

No promise was made that past mistakes could be corrected. In fact a lot of correspondence was offered that the Nicalou Award was exactly what both Freund(AWAPPA) and Seham(USAPPA) have argued, an "ALPA", bargaining position and the time to act was now and nip it in the bud before it was accepted as any part of a contract. Contracts are what give seniority weight because without them, the company would hire, fire, promote, demote and so forth according to their discretion as happens in the non-union world.

Maybe you weren't paying attention to the legal opinions regarding seniority that were put out as information.

 

[EastUS]

BS? Next spin case? What are you implying?

Don't you see the hypocracy in your position?

No sir, I don't see any such supposed hypocrisy. For myself?...I was ex Eastern, and would stand to benefit from that earlier DOH myself...but realize that the existent east list has been in place for many years, was not the doings of the Union in any way, and it'd be the fullest fool's errand to even try to tear things apart in attempting to right all of Alpo's countless wrongs within long-ago history.

I'm not implying anything. I'm directly stating that I believe your posts to be "spin", for some anti-Union agenda that makes no sense to me. What honest solutions are you seeking here?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Just watched the PHX Pilot Crew News.

I think it's obvious from his body language Doug has about had it with the whiners, but he still manages to answer the incessantly repetitive questions with grace and tact. Kudos to him.

It's amazing that there can be such a densely obtuse yet arrogant group of people all in one room.

I was especially fond of the slob in the white t-shirt and wide open Hawaiian shirt interrupting everyone, including the CEO, with his hideous rant. At the CLT training center, there is a dress code. He would not have passed.

And near the end Doug mentioned that the bargaining unit would represent its members, there was a derisive yowl. I didn't understand why. Doug was exactly correct. The bargaining unit IS IN FACT representing its members. NON-members need not be so indignant. You reap what you sow, after all.

 

[KTM300]

No sir, I don't see any such supposed hypocrisy. For myself?...I was ex Eastern, and would stand to benefit from that earlier DOH myself...but realize that the existent east list has been in place for many years, was not the doings of the Union in any way, and it'd be the fullest fool's errand to even try to tear things apart in attempting to right all of Alpo's countless wrongs within long-ago history.

I'm not implying anything. I'm directly stating that I believe your posts to be "spin", for some anti-Union agenda that makes no sense to me. What honest solutions are you seeking here?

Just out of curiosity...did you leave Eastern before they shut the doors or are you one of the shuttle pilots?

 

[EastUS]

Just out of curiosity...did you leave Eastern before they shut the doors or are you one of the shuttle pilots?

Well before they shut the doors..and were still even the Real = "Blue Card" Eastern. Alpa should have, long ago, established a national seniority list..but didn't, due to it's entirely farcical impersonation of any "union", the wholesale lack of any cohesive vision for unionized pilots anywhere, and ..well..simply far, far too many incredible inadequacies to even begin to address here. Regardless; What's existent within the east list is well established by many years now, and it would be utter lunacy, and completely futile, to tear things apart there in some search for redresses for any/all of alpa's countless blunders in long past history. I feel that the best that can reasonably be done at this point is to follow the current course.

 

[Phoenix]

I was especially fond of the slob in the white t-shirt and wide open Hawaiian shirt interrupting everyone, including the CEO, with his hideous rant. At the CLT training center, there is a dress code. He would not have passed.

It was a moment that made me cringe. 🙁

 

[ussnark]

(You obviously don't think much before you post)

Yes, you might have to actually do some work (for some 150 pilots), especially now that ALPA is not around to hold your hand and spoon feed you. Try it, sometime. You may actually find such a path to happiness, actually thinking for yourself, for once.

 

[ussnark]

Yes, and I agree. Like I said, this would only be in a light airplane, with VFR weather condition, no historic ATC delays, and for planning purposes only. (We usually beat the forecast landing fuel on short legs and light loads. Most captains will add 1000 or maybe 2000 if they see a planned landing of 4500, even in good conditions.

As I recall, a USAir 757 has a minimum planned landing fuel of 8000. An extra 6000 lbs for a PIT alternate would not be unusual, leaving a 14,000 lb. arrival fuel, assuming everything went in a correct manner.

 

[KTM300]

Well before they shut the doors..and were still even the Real = "Blue Card" Eastern. Alpa should have, long ago, established a national seniority list..but didn't, due to it's entirely farcical impersonation of any "union", the wholesale lack of any cohesive vision for unionized pilots anywhere, and ..well..simply far, far too many incredible inadequacies to even begin to address here. Regardless; What's existent within the east list is well established by many years now, and it would be utter lunacy, and completely futile, to tear things apart there in some search for redresses for any/all of alpa's countless blunders in long past history. I feel that the best that can reasonably be done at this point is to follow the current course.

I certainly will agree with you on the national seniority list. That doesn't address the DOH issue, however. There is one distinct difference between you and the Shuttle/Empire pilots on the property. You left Eastern, Shuttle merged with USAir and Empire Airlines merged with Piedmont Airlines. They have a Date of Hire just like you printed on the back of their company ID. From here it obviously gets sticky for some of you. The Constitution and By-Laws said Date of Hire, and the Date of Hire Drum was being beat loudly in the USAPA corner for everyone in the east to here, which brought USAPA to the property. The East pilots were so happy, they were beside themselves. Yet the shear mention of what real Date of Hire means, you start singing a different tune. It is so easy to blame ALPA, isn't it? It's ALPA's fault, that's past history. The attorney has spoken,etc.,etc., etc.. Don't you get it, it was the pilots on the property not ALPA.

If there is one reason to abhore the existence of USAPA it is because of the inconsistencies you and others display. Principles and morals define the character of true men and women. True professionals. USAPA may be the CBA for all of us now, but the analogy I see is that of the wolf in sheeps clothing with the wolf coming from the same pack as ALPA!