US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[767jetz]

Landing with 45 minutes of fuel would imply landing a 757 with 3750 lbs total (your numbers), something I would not wish to get into the habit of doing, especially at *certain* airports.

Yes, and I agree. Like I said, this would only be in a light airplane, with VFR weather condition, no historic ATC delays, and for planning purposes only. (We usually beat the forecast landing fuel on short legs and light loads. Most captains will add 1000 or maybe 2000 if they see a planned landing of 4500, even in good conditions.

Anyway, the point of my original comment was not to dispute the prudence of having extra fuel for contingencies, but only to say that 14,000lbs on a 757 sounded a bit excessive even if your RR engines are less efficient.

 

[machtuck]

So, elixr, you think we are operating under one list or two? And when is this grand roll out of this imagined list you speak of?
You crack me up.

Uh...how many did Parker say we had at your "picnic" in PHX...(correct answer is neither 1 or 2 )

Who cares when the rollout is, what? did you already pay the retainer for the lawyer and now you're wondering why?

Don't worry so much. As you said, it'll get settled in court.

 

[Ralph]

The namecalling is to stop now. At least one of you is getting very close to the cornfield.

 

[KTM300]

Take "nic" proposal into your computer as a spreadsheet.

Do a sort based on DOH.

Print.

Voila!

What DOH do you want to use?

 

[nycbusdriver]

So you think you can create a list out of thin air which selectively penalizes some pilots and not others (selective application of DOH). Interesting. How are things in left field?

Can you produce USAPA's seniority list- I want to see it in print. Thanks.

Anyone with access to the east and west lists can pretty much come up with the list that USAPA will offer the company. It's a simple matter of ordering the pilots by date-of-hire.

No one is creating a list out of "thin air." There are two lists to be combined. Each pilot has a date-of-hire. Much court precedent fully supports DOH as an equitable means of integration.

Is there oxygen on your planet?

 

[SegmentKing]

whats the most junior east pilot's original DOH?

 

[prechilill]

Anyone with access to the east and west lists can pretty much come up with the list that USAPA will offer the company. It's a simple matter of ordering the pilots by date-of-hire.

No one is creating a list out of "thin air." There are two lists to be combined. Each pilot has a date-of-hire. Much court precedent fully supports DOH as an equitable means of integration.

Is there oxygen on your planet?

Key word obove is offer. Thanks for the clarification of the truth, busdriver. You may want to pass that on to your friends... So, the only combined list the company has afterall is Nicolau.
I love how you all contradict each others stories, though. Too funny.

 

[KTM300]

Anyone with access to the east and west lists can pretty much come up with the list that USAPA will offer the company. It's a simple matter of ordering the pilots by date-of-hire.

No one is creating a list out of "thin air." There are two lists to be combined. Each pilot has a date-of-hire. Much court precedent fully supports DOH as an equitable means of integration.

Is there oxygen on your planet?

I guess that means that USAPA better start with a fresh list for the East because the Shuttle and Empire pilots agree with you on 'ordering the pilots by date-of-hire.'

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I guess that means that USAPA better start with a fresh list for the East because the Shuttle and Empire pilots agree with you on 'ordering the pilots by date-of-hire.'

This was already been addressed months ago. The list currently in use at East which has lived through numerous contracts is the list and the one that will be combined with the West list.

 

[KTM300]

This was already been addressed months ago. The list currently in use at East is the list that will be combined with the West list.

Are you sure? Did you vote on something other than Date of Hire?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Are you sure? Did you vote on something other than Date of Hire?

The list currently in use at East which has lived through numerous contracts is the list and the one that will be combined with the West list.

DOH with reasonable conditions and restrictions is the merger policy. Past mergers are history and not subject to change, not because they were fair or unfair but the East list has been codified by numerous contracts including the joint contracts that brought previous merger lists together.

Im sure if you go back through your USAPA correspondences since the election, you will find the ones covering this issue.

 

[tazz]

And to Tazz:


Tazz, we know you were there in negotiations and your history of what happened seems true, despite some spin. I can't agree with your predictions. USAPA doesn't have too much leverage this round of negotiations. We're not due for Section 6 for another 16 months. We also view concessions different than you. For you a concessionary contract is agreeing to a 10% raise instead of 30%. We know concessions. For us, it's taking a real pay cut, forcing 2,000 furloughs. We've been there, lost our pensions, 40% pay cuts, 20% vacation cut, work rules cut to FARs. For us, your contract is a big pay raise. It's not what Parker offered 15 months ago. You can blame that on ALPO and our 2 MECs for not jumping on that one. But for a short-term DOH contract with fences, West parity just might pass. You guys should have jumped on the Wy River LOS when you had the chance. Unless Parker insists on LOS, the contract will be DOH with fences.

Last, "The company already has a fantasy seniority list, somewhere mixed into the "who cares" files." East is right -The company really doesn't care. snoop

To clarify I was a nonvoting member of the MC working behind the scene, not present at negotiations but privy to everything going on. Please point out any spin you believe me to be weaving. You don't know anything about the west pilot group if you make a statement such as yours about the west version of a concessionary contract. A 10% raise with no backward movement on other points looks pretty good. You see, we are pretty familiar with the reshuffling of the deck chairs when it comes to negotiations, thanks to alpa. Wye river LOS was too little too late. The time for that was prior to arbitration and your side wouldn't budge from DOH. See my previous posts on that. A million dollars and lots of time and effort resulted in an arbitrator's decision. Those things don't get reversed. Why would we need to negotiate any more?

I don't expect you to agree with my opinion and I appreciate you recognizing that I do have some credibility. As I have stated before I do admire the tenacity of each side in doing what they believe is best for their own people. Those of us on the west do believe that we played by the rules, made the honest effort and would have accepted any decision by the arbitrator because that was the process we agreed to. If it went DOH we would have hated it but moved on.

If Parker actually negotiates away the list, which complies with all of his requirements and which he did accept, law suits will result. He knows this and as a numbers guy he is always calculating what something will cost him. Should he decide to negotiate the Nic decision he would have made a calculation on just what it would cost him to defend against the law suit and the possibility of what losing would cost. Even if he gambles who do you think will really pay? The company? No. The pilots. As I have said in previous posts it will cost usapa a LOT to get DOH. I don't believe you guys would vote in a contract that would include those costs.

 

[KTM300]

The list currently in use at East which has lived through numerous contracts is the list and the one that will be combined with the West list.

DOH with reasonable conditions and restrictions is the merger policy. Past mergers are history and not subject to change, not because they were fair or unfair but the East list has been codified by numerous contracts including the joint contracts that brought previous merger lists together.

Im sure if you go back through your USAPA correspondences since the election, you will find the ones covering this issue.

I must have overlooked something. Can you tell me where I can find the USAPA merger policy? The way I read it in the Constitution and By Laws is DOH is one of the objectives not merger policy.
I imagine many on the east that were placed in front of the Shuttle and Empire pilots are comfortable with the list. Could you be one of them?
DOH is DOH. But you also mentioned reasonable conditions and restrictions. What in your mind would be a reasonable condition and restriction for denying your fellow pilots their DOH. You sure as hell wanted yours!

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I must have overlooked something. Can you tell me where I can find the USAPA merger policy? The way I read it in the Constitution and By Laws is DOH is one of the objectives not merger policy.
I imagine many on the east that were placed in front of the Shuttle and Empire pilots are comfortable with the list. Could you be one of them?
DOH is DOH. But you also mentioned reasonable conditions and restrictions. What in your mind would be a reasonable condition and restriction for denying your fellow pilots their DOH. You sure as hell wanted yours!

Trying to stir up an issue that was addressed by USAPA months ago is a nice attempt at obfuscating the present situation. The issue was briefed by Seham to USAPA and that the current East list is settled because of the contracts that brought previous lists together and the numerous ones since. Might as well go back and start debating threads from three years ago if you think it will help implement the Nicalou award.

You can spin away but the only lists with legitimacy are the ones that exist in the current contracts both East and West. Nicalou was a bargaining position and nothing more and was never really fully embraced by the previous Collective Bargaining Agent, the only entity that had any responsibility to it. If you want to hold your breath, bluster, or sue, ALPA is the appropriate target of any anger issues you might have.

 

[KTM300]

Trying to stir up an issue that was addressed by USAPA months ago is a nice attempt at obfuscating the present situation. The issue was briefed by Seham to USAPA and that the current East list is settled because of the contracts that brought previous lists together and the numerous ones since. Might as well go back and start debating threads from three years ago if you think it will help implement the Nicalou award.

You can spin away but the only lists with legitimacy are the ones that exist in the current contracts both East and West. Nicalou was a bargaining position and nothing more and was never really fully embraced by the previous Collective Bargaining Agent, the only entity that had any responsibility to it. If you want to hold your breath, bluster, or sue, ALPA is the appropriate target of any anger issues you might have.

I guess it was only a matter of time before you had to bring the attorney into this debate. Bully for you!

We have all tried to throw attorneys names around, hiding behind the idea that my attorney is better than your attorney. My attorney is smarter than your attorney. I don't care what Seham briefed. He hasn't always made the right call.

I am merely asking from one pilot to another pilot your position on date of hire like the constitution and by laws outline. I am not attempting to obfuscate the present position. This isn't a spin tactic. You may not like the idea of date of hire for the Shuttle pilots or empire pilots, but I'm sure their DOH means something to them and they may see USAPA as recognizing something that you should too! But alas you choose not to. How sad. Am I now to understand that USAPA thinks that if the Shuttle/Empire pilots don't say anything and because Seham has spoken, DOH is what ALPA says it is! Holy S#%T!

CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND WHO YOU WANT TO REPRESENT YOU!