Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
How is "amend" relevant if the world is governed by "final and binding"?
US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
How is "amend" relevant if the world is governed by "final and binding"?
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
Okay. Let's use what I believe your logic is here... Why does USAPA refuse to "amend" the seniority for the Empire and Trump Shuttle pilots?
The process we used to arrive at the list (Nic) was what we agreed to. Therein lies the "contract." You wish to amend that process/contract between the two groups? Why did you not seek amendment prior to the result?
nycbusdriver
Veteran
On a macroscopic level, nothing is final and binding except physical death. So far that is the ONLY thing over which humankind has not been able to demonstrate some amount of control.
On the microscopic level of any "final and binding" result of a human negotiation, as long as there are courts and lawyers, "final and binding" is a myth and everything is "amendable" through court action or other civil proceedings.
GorgeousGeorge
Senior
- Apr 29, 2008
- 326
- 357
Seniority is labor/management issue achieved at the negotiating table through the collective bargaining process. Seniority then lives in the contract. In the case of Trump/Empire, those seniority agreements were consummated by acceptance in combined collective bargaining agreements and have become functioning seniority lists. DOH with C & R's is USAPA merger policy, it isn't a policy to reorder functioning lists. Pilot integration has not taken place in the case of US/AWA and merged seniority is still an open issue that can only be resolved through a single collective bargaining agreement.
The Nicalou list outside of a combined CBA only existed as a bargaining position adopted by ALPA through a internal mechanism to solve seniority disputes. A combined contract has not been achieved, the union replaced, and a new bargaining position has been adopted in accordance with the merger policy of USAPA. Final and Binding was really only Final and Binding on ALPA but not really as evidenced by their own actions. If the West pilots really wanted to pursue a DFR case with any chance of being resolved by the tricentennial it should have been brought against ALPA.
USAPAWatch update:
The Eye has had a difficult time framing the outline of this posting. To be sure he tries to see each side of the issues discussed and spends a lot of time verifying information among USAPA officials, former west ALPA officials and company officials. Each group is paranoid of the others to the extent that all pilots at US Airways are ill served.
Web postings are available to The Eye on the former AWA pilot's web boards, USAPA web boards (such as they exist by independent efforts separate from USAPA) and general public web boards. We spend a lot of time reading and tracing down facts to what are mostly web board rumors whether it be from the west pilots or the east pilots. The Eye has solid resources in all of the affected groups and we know that each try to use us to advance their agenda. In the end we analyze the information, come to our own conclusions and post our opinion based on available facts and not propaganda from any interested group.
One thing is clear. The USAPA quick fix is not in, never was close to being in, and never will be in.
Let's just get one thing out of the way that has galled us to the point of head pounding. USAPA is fascinated that they have a "democratic" organization that reflects the will of the membership. What galls us is that every organization whether it be the women's knitting club or a union such as USAPA is bound by law to uphold democratic principles and procedures. Its basic Robert's Rules Of Order. USAPA must follow it, the Rotary Club must follow it, the model airplane club must follow it. Every organization that acts on behalf of others must follow the rules of being part of The United States of America. The fact that USAPA, in almost every communication they issue, champions their "new democratic union" is like saying that Americans are now free to eat french fries after decades of Franco oppression.
We suggest that the council updates out of Charlotte, Boston, Philadelphia, DCA, and USAPA in general stop waving the pom poms of democracy and start acting like a democratic organization. There is not one iota of difference between the way USAPA runs it's union and the way ALPA ran it's union. Procedures vary but the basic principles are exactly the same. By law. USAPA did not invent democracy but they have turned back the pages on representational democracy to a propositional democracy. Many states that allow any number of voter propositions that must be voted on by the state's citizens at large during general elections have found them to be hideously expensive and virtually impossible to enforce.
With that off our chest lets visit the recent meetings USAPA leaders conducted in Phoenix. First of all, USAPA violated their own constitution by not giving adequate notice of the meeting. They further violated their own constitution by not conducting separate meetings for the PHX base and the LAS base. Believe it or not, Vegas is a long, long way from PHX and each base has its own issues. Few PHX pilots will travel to Vegas for a meeting and Vegas pilots are not about to spend a whole day to get to PHX just to attend a one hour meeting. It is incumbent upon USAPA to provide the forum for each base. They do it for each of the east coast bases. Combining a PHX/LAS meeting is like combining a BOS/PHL meeting. We do not believe BOS pilots or PHL pilots would stand for a combined meeting.
We all know that there are very, very few west pilots that are members of USAPA. It cannot go unsaid that by holding a meeting that virtually every west pilot was barred from attending that USAPA was not trying to represent it's constituency. They were filling a legal square. In their updates USAPA pleads for member participation and point to the fact that only members in good standing can attend a meeting. While that is technically true it is up to each local council to make the rules about meeting attendance as they see fit. Since it's inception the AWA ALPA Local Council 62 opened every meeting, except local council election meetings, to everyone. Management had a standing invitation to attend, spouses and children were welcome, non-members were welcome, members in bad standing and delinquent members were always welcomed to attend any non-election union council meeting. It worked well for those AWA pilots for more than 12 years. Democracy flourished although it got ugly at times. But everyone left the meetings feeling their voice had been heard.
USAPA held a combined LAS/PHX domicile meeting on a holiday, in a building far away from the airport (by PHX standards), that was inconvenient to get to and that only two people were allowed to attend. Does that sound right, fair or reasonable to anyone? Upon realizing that their time was going to be wasted the USAPA leaders conducting the meeting could have and should have used their American provided democratic authority to open the meeting to all and have an informational presentation to present USAPA goals and to listen to questions and concerns of prospective USAPA members. There were more than 30 people (an average ALPA local meeting attendance count) willing to sit and listen. By not doing so USAPA failed a critical democratic test. They knew what they could expect and instead of trying to win over minds they instead hired an armed protective security force to protect...who? The democratic USAPA union from what they perceived to be a violent and hostile membership of two?
While on their fact finding trip to PHX the USAPA leaders were shocked to find anti USAPA stickers and paraphernalia in the crew lounge of the PHX pilot domicile. PHX pilots and the company have long had an understanding that the crew lounge is a neutral zone for the pilots. The company doesn't encroach there and the pilots have latitude to make the place their work home. Unofficial pro ALPA meetings as well as anti-ALPA meetings have always been held in the PHX crew room as well as the display of all sorts of pro this, anti that stickers as well as tables provided to ask for donations to whatever charitable cause. The only requirement was that materials could not be stuck onto the crew locker doors. Upon this discovery USAPA complained to Sr. VP Flight Operations Ed Bular. Without bothering to check the policy Bular ordered that the stickers and other materials be removed. We can only hope that Bular will be removed from his position with such efficiency since most of his decisions thus far have had to be recanted.
While they were at it the USAPA leaders thought it would be a wonderful idea to also file a lawsuit against the west chief pilot for not removing the paraphernalia that was posted on the union bulletin board per their request. What USAPA did not bother to find out is that the bulletin board is not theirs nor is it the company's. It still belongs to ALPA. There is contractual language in the old but still current and active west ALPA contract that specifically states that the bulletin board is to be purchased by ALPA and will always belong to ALPA. The company has no access to the locks on the board. The City of Phoenix installed the board and the company only provided wall space for it. By illegally obtaining the keys to the board and using it for USAPA purposes USAPA has committed theft. We suggest they remove the controversial USAPA material from the ALPA bulletin board, buy their own and strike an agreement with the company for placement. The attorneys, yet again, are involved.
We won't get into all the lawsuits filed by USAPA against just about everybody but our unofficial count is now up to 8 filed lawsuits.
This post is long enough already but we need to highlight a couple of important points about negotiations. First, as we have said before, there is never going to be a contract as long as USAPA is fighting half of its potential membership. That's just common sense. Until the leadership starts doing some positive things to unify the membership and potential members no matter how high the odds against them currently are, there is just no way anyone is going to negotiate with USAPA about anything. USAPA must find a way to bring west pilots into the fold and holding onto the strict DOH seniority integration policy is a sure road to failure. Failure not only of unity, but failure of negotiating anything and ultimate failure of the union. New unions do not have a good track record of success even when things are going their way. We hear from an increasing number of east pilots about their growing disillusionment with USAPA being able to deliver on any of their so called constitutionally mandated platforms. Constitutions can be changed as USAPA has just found out.
This is a blog and in order to promote free and honest communication we don't have to hold to higher journalistic standards. As we noted at the top we have sources within the inner circle of USAPA, the company and the west pilots. Many of those sources speak only on the condition of anonymity for obvious reasons as do we. We have tried to be neutral and fair to all sides so only you can be the judge that what we post is within the bounds of believability.
This week we have information directly from one of the USAPA negotiating committee members. He said that "USAPA has a snowball's chance in hell of negotiating a contract." When USAPA reopened ALL previously TA'd sections of the contract this USAPA negotiator realized by the company's extraordinary reaction that they (the company) were not dealing with serious men (USAPA). Hence CEO Doug Parker's statement in the PHX Crew News session last week about the union and the company being miles and miles apart on negotiated items and the dismal prospect of a new contract. The USAPA negotiator said, "We have already lost. USAPA leadership does not want to admit it. I don't think, based on the dwindling support and decreasing dues payments from members, that USAPA will last through the summer." USAPA calls for unity can't fix stupid.
Finally, one other thing that is more the company's fault than USAPA's. The company is taking delivery of new aircraft and quite a few are replacement aircraft for the west fleet. We all know about the transition agreement and the separate operations. East Airbus fleet manager John Hope or maybe someone else higher up figured he would be the one to take delivery of the new aircraft and fly it to Phoenix. US Airways is still two separate airlines. The east fleet manager has no authority to fly west aircraft. USAPA failed to note this distinction and it was up to vigilant west pilots to enforce USAPA endorsed policy of separate ops to stop this operation from happening. John Hope, for whatever reason, will now be a jump seater on the delivery flights as west pilots fly the new A321s to Phoenix.
We may have stretched our credibility with all of this but over the last few weeks The Eye has been trying to digest all of the information relayed above. Much of the time it just seemed to be too ridiculous to be believable. There is much more that we haven't said. Stay tuned and above all,
Be Responsible Union Pilots!
The Eye has had a difficult time framing the outline of this posting. To be sure he tries to see each side of the issues discussed and spends a lot of time verifying information among USAPA officials, former west ALPA officials and company officials. Each group is paranoid of the others to the extent that all pilots at US Airways are ill served.
Web postings are available to The Eye on the former AWA pilot's web boards, USAPA web boards (such as they exist by independent efforts separate from USAPA) and general public web boards. We spend a lot of time reading and tracing down facts to what are mostly web board rumors whether it be from the west pilots or the east pilots. The Eye has solid resources in all of the affected groups and we know that each try to use us to advance their agenda. In the end we analyze the information, come to our own conclusions and post our opinion based on available facts and not propaganda from any interested group.
One thing is clear. The USAPA quick fix is not in, never was close to being in, and never will be in.
Let's just get one thing out of the way that has galled us to the point of head pounding. USAPA is fascinated that they have a "democratic" organization that reflects the will of the membership. What galls us is that every organization whether it be the women's knitting club or a union such as USAPA is bound by law to uphold democratic principles and procedures. Its basic Robert's Rules Of Order. USAPA must follow it, the Rotary Club must follow it, the model airplane club must follow it. Every organization that acts on behalf of others must follow the rules of being part of The United States of America. The fact that USAPA, in almost every communication they issue, champions their "new democratic union" is like saying that Americans are now free to eat french fries after decades of Franco oppression.
We suggest that the council updates out of Charlotte, Boston, Philadelphia, DCA, and USAPA in general stop waving the pom poms of democracy and start acting like a democratic organization. There is not one iota of difference between the way USAPA runs it's union and the way ALPA ran it's union. Procedures vary but the basic principles are exactly the same. By law. USAPA did not invent democracy but they have turned back the pages on representational democracy to a propositional democracy. Many states that allow any number of voter propositions that must be voted on by the state's citizens at large during general elections have found them to be hideously expensive and virtually impossible to enforce.
With that off our chest lets visit the recent meetings USAPA leaders conducted in Phoenix. First of all, USAPA violated their own constitution by not giving adequate notice of the meeting. They further violated their own constitution by not conducting separate meetings for the PHX base and the LAS base. Believe it or not, Vegas is a long, long way from PHX and each base has its own issues. Few PHX pilots will travel to Vegas for a meeting and Vegas pilots are not about to spend a whole day to get to PHX just to attend a one hour meeting. It is incumbent upon USAPA to provide the forum for each base. They do it for each of the east coast bases. Combining a PHX/LAS meeting is like combining a BOS/PHL meeting. We do not believe BOS pilots or PHL pilots would stand for a combined meeting.
We all know that there are very, very few west pilots that are members of USAPA. It cannot go unsaid that by holding a meeting that virtually every west pilot was barred from attending that USAPA was not trying to represent it's constituency. They were filling a legal square. In their updates USAPA pleads for member participation and point to the fact that only members in good standing can attend a meeting. While that is technically true it is up to each local council to make the rules about meeting attendance as they see fit. Since it's inception the AWA ALPA Local Council 62 opened every meeting, except local council election meetings, to everyone. Management had a standing invitation to attend, spouses and children were welcome, non-members were welcome, members in bad standing and delinquent members were always welcomed to attend any non-election union council meeting. It worked well for those AWA pilots for more than 12 years. Democracy flourished although it got ugly at times. But everyone left the meetings feeling their voice had been heard.
USAPA held a combined LAS/PHX domicile meeting on a holiday, in a building far away from the airport (by PHX standards), that was inconvenient to get to and that only two people were allowed to attend. Does that sound right, fair or reasonable to anyone? Upon realizing that their time was going to be wasted the USAPA leaders conducting the meeting could have and should have used their American provided democratic authority to open the meeting to all and have an informational presentation to present USAPA goals and to listen to questions and concerns of prospective USAPA members. There were more than 30 people (an average ALPA local meeting attendance count) willing to sit and listen. By not doing so USAPA failed a critical democratic test. They knew what they could expect and instead of trying to win over minds they instead hired an armed protective security force to protect...who? The democratic USAPA union from what they perceived to be a violent and hostile membership of two?
While on their fact finding trip to PHX the USAPA leaders were shocked to find anti USAPA stickers and paraphernalia in the crew lounge of the PHX pilot domicile. PHX pilots and the company have long had an understanding that the crew lounge is a neutral zone for the pilots. The company doesn't encroach there and the pilots have latitude to make the place their work home. Unofficial pro ALPA meetings as well as anti-ALPA meetings have always been held in the PHX crew room as well as the display of all sorts of pro this, anti that stickers as well as tables provided to ask for donations to whatever charitable cause. The only requirement was that materials could not be stuck onto the crew locker doors. Upon this discovery USAPA complained to Sr. VP Flight Operations Ed Bular. Without bothering to check the policy Bular ordered that the stickers and other materials be removed. We can only hope that Bular will be removed from his position with such efficiency since most of his decisions thus far have had to be recanted.
While they were at it the USAPA leaders thought it would be a wonderful idea to also file a lawsuit against the west chief pilot for not removing the paraphernalia that was posted on the union bulletin board per their request. What USAPA did not bother to find out is that the bulletin board is not theirs nor is it the company's. It still belongs to ALPA. There is contractual language in the old but still current and active west ALPA contract that specifically states that the bulletin board is to be purchased by ALPA and will always belong to ALPA. The company has no access to the locks on the board. The City of Phoenix installed the board and the company only provided wall space for it. By illegally obtaining the keys to the board and using it for USAPA purposes USAPA has committed theft. We suggest they remove the controversial USAPA material from the ALPA bulletin board, buy their own and strike an agreement with the company for placement. The attorneys, yet again, are involved.
We won't get into all the lawsuits filed by USAPA against just about everybody but our unofficial count is now up to 8 filed lawsuits.
This post is long enough already but we need to highlight a couple of important points about negotiations. First, as we have said before, there is never going to be a contract as long as USAPA is fighting half of its potential membership. That's just common sense. Until the leadership starts doing some positive things to unify the membership and potential members no matter how high the odds against them currently are, there is just no way anyone is going to negotiate with USAPA about anything. USAPA must find a way to bring west pilots into the fold and holding onto the strict DOH seniority integration policy is a sure road to failure. Failure not only of unity, but failure of negotiating anything and ultimate failure of the union. New unions do not have a good track record of success even when things are going their way. We hear from an increasing number of east pilots about their growing disillusionment with USAPA being able to deliver on any of their so called constitutionally mandated platforms. Constitutions can be changed as USAPA has just found out.
This is a blog and in order to promote free and honest communication we don't have to hold to higher journalistic standards. As we noted at the top we have sources within the inner circle of USAPA, the company and the west pilots. Many of those sources speak only on the condition of anonymity for obvious reasons as do we. We have tried to be neutral and fair to all sides so only you can be the judge that what we post is within the bounds of believability.
This week we have information directly from one of the USAPA negotiating committee members. He said that "USAPA has a snowball's chance in hell of negotiating a contract." When USAPA reopened ALL previously TA'd sections of the contract this USAPA negotiator realized by the company's extraordinary reaction that they (the company) were not dealing with serious men (USAPA). Hence CEO Doug Parker's statement in the PHX Crew News session last week about the union and the company being miles and miles apart on negotiated items and the dismal prospect of a new contract. The USAPA negotiator said, "We have already lost. USAPA leadership does not want to admit it. I don't think, based on the dwindling support and decreasing dues payments from members, that USAPA will last through the summer." USAPA calls for unity can't fix stupid.
Finally, one other thing that is more the company's fault than USAPA's. The company is taking delivery of new aircraft and quite a few are replacement aircraft for the west fleet. We all know about the transition agreement and the separate operations. East Airbus fleet manager John Hope or maybe someone else higher up figured he would be the one to take delivery of the new aircraft and fly it to Phoenix. US Airways is still two separate airlines. The east fleet manager has no authority to fly west aircraft. USAPA failed to note this distinction and it was up to vigilant west pilots to enforce USAPA endorsed policy of separate ops to stop this operation from happening. John Hope, for whatever reason, will now be a jump seater on the delivery flights as west pilots fly the new A321s to Phoenix.
We may have stretched our credibility with all of this but over the last few weeks The Eye has been trying to digest all of the information relayed above. Much of the time it just seemed to be too ridiculous to be believable. There is much more that we haven't said. Stay tuned and above all,
Be Responsible Union Pilots!
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
What do you call twenty millionaires sitting around and watching the Super Bowl on TV?
The Dallas Cowboys.
The Dallas Cowboys.
cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
- Banned
- #82
Bus driver,
Then you admit that the Empire/Trump law suit could win? Thereby changing the east list to a true DOH list?
nycbusdriver
Veteran
USAPA never said they had a "quick fix." They never even said they would guarantee ANY fix, quick or otherwise. And your pontification that it will "never be in" is specious. The courts will decide; never say "never."
This is an hilarious hodgepdoge of misunderstanding, misinformation and ignorance.
"Democracy is a form of government in which power is held by people under a free electoral system." We all know the results of the free election held by the NMB.
"French fries"?
"Decades of Franco oppression"?
How does the Spanish dictator, Franco, relate to your "french fries" comment? Missed that day in World History class, did we?
You will find very few Bular supporters in the east. That being said, if his decision was against the current policy, as Sr. VP for Inflight, he simply changed the policy. Stand by for the memo.
Well, then ALPA needs to be paying the company or the City of Phoenix rent for the space, or remove their bulletin board. Has ALPA made any request to get it back? Have they contracted with the City to have it removed and returned? Or, has ALPA abandoned it in a legal sense. If ALPA has heartburn with USAPA taking over their bulletin board, they need to file notice of such. Then, the City or the company can simply send them an invoice for back rent to April 18th at, say, $5,000/month.
There are probably other legal ramifications for a union with no business on the property to have a locked information board displayed. I wonder how ALPA would feel if USAPA, or SWAPA, or the Teamsters, were allowed to have locked bulletin boards in the crew rooms of all the ALPA-represented carriers?
UNDERSTATEMENT!
So what? USAPA has no heartburn with the west getting the airplanes to which they are entitled. And USAPA doesn't give a hoot about John Hope having to be a passenger on the flight. The deliveries will be flown by west Airbus check airmen, no doubt. So what? Hope is still their boss. Do you think they will deny him jumpseat, in the great tradition of west line pilots? What I do guarantee is the no west line pilot will fly those delivery flights, so why the big deal?
I agree with your conclusion, but I disagree with your reasons. There won't be a contract in the near terms simply because the company is enjoying the fruits of a disjointed pilot group. Until both contracts are into mediation/arbitration/cooling-period/ self-help status, the company has ZERO incentive to offer anything reasonable. Since the east contract is not amendable until at least the end of 2009 (I forget the date,) the earliest self-help might not come until 2011 or 2012. We east pilots have long figured on working under LOA 93 until then, so most of us are resigned to it.
But USAPA is not fighting "half of its potential membership." Rather, a third of its potential membership refuses to accept the reality of the situation (as Doug Parker repeatedly tells them at the PHX Town Hall meetings.)
cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
- Banned
- #85
Not really. These are replacement aircraft needed to maintain the minimum hull count on each side.
Post #30 provides a link to the letter by Hemenway accepting the Nicolau list on behalf of the company. Post #50 provides a link to the letter where Parker accepts the list. Both letters state that the list can't be implemented until we are operating one contract but both ACCEPT the Nicolau list.
The list was accepted by the company twice and on paper. The company would have a very hard time negotiating that list away and then defending its actions in court. Why do you think that Parker stated in that meeting that the company and usapa were a long way apart in contract negotiations?
Early on in the "merger" the west received the famous "Hemenway letter" which threatened to put us all under LOA 93 at the company's whim. What would stop them from doing that now? With the current news of alliances being formed for potential mergers of other airlines Parker might just get motivated to do so in an attempt to make us more appealing to a merger partner.
I believe that Judge Wake has all of this information and his decision has been long in coming because he is doing a lot of homework for his upcoming decision.
Like it or not, the company DID accept the Nicolau list. The world sees it and the judge sees it. You can see it too. Go back and pick up those links.
NiceLandingCaptain
Senior
- Jul 22, 2007
- 406
- 0
I'm not sure which will kill usapa first: the external erosion or its own internal cancer.
One thing is certain. Every step the usapa brain trust takes in attempting to "win" the West ends up simply as more fuel for the DFR fire. In the meantime, Seham is milking your teat dry.
Are all you eastyz really willing to "give it all up" for DOH? Are you truely steadfast in your "burn the place down" mentality?
One thing is certain. Every step the usapa brain trust takes in attempting to "win" the West ends up simply as more fuel for the DFR fire. In the meantime, Seham is milking your teat dry.
Are all you eastyz really willing to "give it all up" for DOH? Are you truely steadfast in your "burn the place down" mentality?
Megasnoop
Veteran
Sounds fair to me. You dont join and pay dues, you cant go to meetings. Kind of like the way ALPO did things. Must be a union thing. Union Reps working on a holiday? Can you imagine that ever happening at the ALPO? As far as where located, when there are PHX Reps, they can hold meetings anywhere they want. I doubt if thatll happen soon, not as long as anyone who even expresses interest in stepping up gets harassed. Hey, Grits, hows that harassment investigation going? Irony that usapa may have to defend the harassers. snooper, aka fil the freeloader
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Isn't that obvious by now? Have you missed the last two years of postings here?
We've already pretty much given "it all up" with ALPA's cram down tactics in its collusive efforts to take us down to AWA perennial gutter levels of compensation. The only valuable thing we have left is DOH. We won't let that go gently. Or has that fact somehow escaped your notice?
NiceLandingCaptain
Senior
- Jul 22, 2007
- 406
- 0
You have a job don't you? And according to your postings, your particular position is a pretty good gig. That should have some value.
So, is having your valuable seniority really more important than having a job?
Every usapian needs to ask himself/herself this question. Put the emotion aside and search for a serious answer.
If your statement is what you truely believe, you might as well leave now. Because, continuing along this tack will quite possibly cost you both.
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