US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[V1cut]

As I'm not as computer-savvy sa others', I can't find Metroyet's assertion that a "new plan was needed"....(the virus-plan).

I assume this is where the 1000+ "cactus" pilots finally figure out that Parker will 86 you if you push things down the wrong road. (see recent crew news) and you all have an "en-mass" joining...all while you put on "cow-eyes" for the judge and whine about being "ignored" and "isolated" by mean old USAPA...and how you have been trying so hard to participate...to volunteer, to be part of the union...to have your needs heard and met...?

So unheard, and so ignored have your various pleadings been with USAPA, you've done everything that you could do to be involved in the new LEGAL union and been ignored, that you are forced to file a DFR now....(makes me all weepy.)

What?....what's wrong with this picture?....

The last 2 years of west activity, thats whats wrong with that picture. Sorry, Metroyet, you can't take back history...even if you move on to "Plan B".....what'd you call it?....Virus 2?

We'll see what this judge says, but ALL of your west behavior is going to be brought out into the courtroom, so that he make look beyond your enticing cow-eyes, and see the doll hanging in the cockpit, or any of a dozen like events which you all look the other way over...

This is going to be good.

 

[Pacemaker]

Uh, a little bit of advice - admitting that the usair MEC advocated DOH in "UAL two" does little to convince us that you're not all insane.

 

[pilotn79]

Sounds like time for another minor reality check of sorts.

The East is going to be getting a reality check, Eastus. Looks like your side is going to be dragged into court. Don't need to convince me, talk to the judge.

 

[Tiger 1050]

As I'm not as computer-savvy sa others', I can't find Metroyet's assertion that a "new plan was needed"....(the virus-plan).

I assume this is where the 1000+ "cactus" pilots finally figure out that Parker will 86 you if you push things down the wrong road. (see recent crew news) and you all have an "en-mass" joining...all while you put on "cow-eyes" for the judge and whine about being "ignored" and "isolated" by mean old USAPA...and how you have been trying so hard to participate...to volunteer, to be part of the union...to have your needs heard and met...?

So unheard, and so ignored have your various pleadings been with USAPA, you've done everything that you could do to be involved in the new LEGAL union and been ignored, that you are forced to file a DFR now....(makes me all weepy.)

What?....what's wrong with this picture?....

The last 2 years of west activity, thats whats wrong with that picture. Sorry, Metroyet, you can't take back history...even if you move on to "Plan B".....what'd you call it?....Virus 2?

We'll see what this judge says, but ALL of your west behavior is going to be brought out into the courtroom, so that he make look beyond your enticing cow-eyes, and see the doll hanging in the cockpit, or any of a dozen like events which you all look the other way over...

This is going to be good.

...Sigh... Mach you need anger counseling. Most of what you talk about in your post was in one form or another discussed on Oct 29th. While I agree there is certainly more to be discussed I would venture to say that discovery will be far more damning on USAPA.

Read the ruling. EVERY argument USAPA brought was shot down. EVERY ONE! But maybe Seham can pull something out of his hat with "enticing cow-eyes."

 

[V1cut]

...Sigh... Mach you need anger counseling. Most of what you talk about in your post was in one form or another discussed on Oct 29th. While I agree there is certainly more to be discussed I would venture to say that discovery will be far more damning on USAPA.

Read the ruling. EVERY argument USAPA brought was shot down. EVERY ONE! But maybe Seham can pull something out of his hat with "enticing cow-eyes."

You know, Tiger, at first I was flattered that you keep calling me Machtuck...but I am not, and therefore I'm asking you in front of the mods to stop for the last time. There is a policy to address the posters by their posted screen name, that includes you.

Now, back to business....the tactical mistakes the west has taken outweigh any perceived unfairness by USAPA to attempt to include them in the union and its direction/policies. I say perceived, because as soon as the judge is aware of the outright aggressive DISTANCING from USAPA the west has adopted over the last 24 months, the lights begin to go on...

As I said, good luck with the conflicting evidence that will pop you in the forehead...and the judges, too.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Those were aquagreens words not mine. Your post 198 makes it look like it was something I said, it was not.

You're right, I apologize.

 

[skyflyr69]

Uh, a little bit of advice - admitting that the usair MEC advocated DOH in "UAL two" does little to convince us that you're not all insane.

DFR's RARELY win. Don't be raising the champagne glass yet. "proof" has to be "proven" . You have a slippery slope to climb as most DFR's always make it into court only to be turned away at thousands of dollars of expense by the plantiffs. Good luck,
:unsure:

 

[Tiger 1050]

You know, Tiger, at first I was flattered that you keep calling me Machtuck...but I am not, and therefore I'm asking you in front of the mods to stop for the last time. There is a policy to address the posters by their posted screen name, that includes you.

Now, back to business....the tactical mistakes the west has taken outweigh any perceived unfairness by USAPA to attempt to include them in the union and its direction/policies. I say perceived, because as soon as the judge is aware of the outright aggressive DISTANCING from USAPA the west has adopted over the last 24 months, the lights begin to go on...

As I said, good luck with the conflicting evidence that will pop you in the forehead...and the judges, too.

Okay "V1cut." Let's look at your post...

Please elaborate on "Tactical Mistakes." If you reply with a smart a** comment then I'll assume you're just full of hot air.

Distancing for the last 24 months?!? You do realize that USAPA has only been around since April of this year. Right? The difference between the pilots out west, whether collectively or individually, and USAPA, is USAPA has a legal responsibility to represent ALL pilots fairly and without prejudice.

 

[Barberpole]

I say perceived, because as soon as the judge is aware of the outright aggressive DISTANCING from USAPA the west has adopted over the last 24 months, the lights begin to go on...

I imagine the judge is a little more aware of the current situation than you give him credit for. It's quite natural that the west would distance themselves from a Union which is bent on destroying their careers. The only ones who don't seem to understand that is the collective east pilot group. Don't you guys ever get tired of dead ends? I'm sure the hanging doll argument will save you now that all your other arguments have been shot down...

 

[V1cut]

Okay "V1cut." Let's look at your post...

Please elaborate on "Tactical Mistakes." If you reply with a smart a** comment then I'll assume you're just full of hot air.

Distancing for the last 24 months?!? You do realize that USAPA has only been around since April of this year. Right? The difference between the pilots out west, whether collectively or individually, and USAPA, is USAPA has a legal responsibility to represent ALL pilots fairly and without prejudice.

Well, to be honest, little of this "tit for tat" affects me anyway, so I may have over-reached on the dates of the west propaganda...you'll forgive me.

The 'tactical mistakes" are numerous...but lets keep it simple: TOTAL DEFIANCE and OPEN IGNORANCE of the new CBA that was VOTED ON BY ALL USAIRWAYS PILOTS...EAST AND WEST.

It was not a given USAPA would win, there are a few die-hards out east still....

After the legal vote..the west immediately launches an anti-USAPA campaign, starts up AWAPPA which advertises that they collect dues...ONLY from WEST pilots, BUT...(and this is good) they are an LLC...NOT a "representative" of west pilots.
"Army of Leonidas" magically appears as well, but seems to have conflicting 'warfare tactics" AGAINST USAPA..so they finally ameliorate into a semi-simbiotic anti-USAPA force.

Now, when faced with the reality that Parker cited, in no uncertain terms, the west has to join USAPA or be fired...in strict accordance with the law...the floodgates magically open? (although we've heard all the usual pontifications about this from active westies) Seems the "VIRUS 2" is to join and reach out a withered hand in exasperation that USAPA has so forsaken them....they look longingly to the Judge.....a tear runs down everyone's eye...

I don't need to quote chapter and verse, do I?

It's all out there, and we all know it.

 

[EastUS]

The East is going to be getting a reality check, Eastus. Looks like your side is going to be dragged into court. Don't need to convince me, talk to the judge.

No one out east is at all surprised by the thought of eventual courtroom resolution. Equally; none can truly predict the final outcome. Virtually anything can happen in court. Heck..isn't OJay "not guilty", but yet civilly liable for the murders that he didn't criminally, (but apparently did by civil standards), commit? I'd have to note that your "expectations" are showing again All I can say is that the rampant enthusiasm shown by any here for litigation disposes me to acknowledge the naievete of those now so exultant about this magically infallable process..that will suit their needs and their needs only... I'd agree that the Judge's initial order seems favorable to the west, but the court has much to consider that's yet unseen, and I don't envy him his job in sorting this out. The bottom line is that we'll all have to wait this out..and none of us know how it'll go. I'd be utterly astonished if whichever side finds itself coming up short doesn't immediately appeal, and feel that this process has a long way to go before we'll benefit from final, legal settlement of the respective groups' differences. I could certainly be wrong. That last observation coming from lengthy living experience, and the full realization that my/anyone's "expectations" rarely, if ever, paint any accurate portrait of the future.....

On a much lighter note:

Pacemaker: "Uh, a little bit of advice - admitting that the usair MEC advocated DOH in "UAL two" does little to convince us that you're not all insane." Tsk Tsk good sir. Why shuckens...the very same government that offers the court you're putting complete faith in, has previously certified myself and many others on the east, and doubtless some few out west as well..to actually be "sane", up to and inclusive of the care/feeding/usage of nuclear weapons. (Yeah..I know..get a chuckle outta' that "sane cetification" in my own instance for sure) Ummm....anyone run any sanity checks out your way?..No? Sigh..your opinion's duly noted and taken for what it's worth then

 

[cubfan]

I think I explained before. Currently we have separate operations therefore separate seniority lists. What the Empire/Trump suit wants to do is reorder by true DOH the east list. Judge Wake will have completed this case before the E/T suit gets to court. If the judge rules that the Nicolau has to be used another federal court I believe could not overturn that ruling.

But the judge in the E/T could decide that since the lists are still separate he could reorder the east list by DOH. Then reinsert it back into the Nicolau. It would be no different then if we found out that the east list had a mistake in it. That is exactly what the MDA guys are trying to do. Change the east list to reflect their opinion that they were not furloughed.

Also I think that there are some very substantial monetary damages included in that suit. So maybe they don’t reorder the list but get paid big money.

You are correct that the PSA guys could if they chose to come to PHX and be senior captains. We know this, we understand this, we accept this. First there have to be vacancies for them to move. Second in reality there may only be maybe 200, 300 total pilots move to the west. In the scheme of things not a huge deal. That is part of a merger things change.

That is one of the things that the west can not understand. In reality not more than about 10 % of our guys would even consider going to the east coast. So a maximum of 170 pilots. If the same percentage of east moves west there are 300 pilots. What is the “fear†from the east that we will come flooding east. Look at your our pilots. Bradford can hold a captain slot but chooses to remain an F/O. We have the same thing happen here. A captain slot in PHL or senior F/O in PHX no brainer. Comfortable winters, easy flying out west with good schedules and no commute.

They would be from the entire range of seniority list. Senior captains to junior F/O’s. Not to take “your†seat but just to be closer to home. That is something that we are all going to have to get over. It is not yours and my flying. It is company flying. Frankly I was surprised to see in the NAC update that USAPA has disallowed cross domicile bidding. Really! Is PHL so selfish that they don’t want some lousy CLT pilot coming to do “THEIR FLYING�

I agree. If the judge determines that USAPA must use the Nicolau award as decided without fences. The west will join and pay dues. So we can get to a better contract. This could all be decided within 90 days. Judge Wakes wants this done quick.

I hope you are right that most will accept this decision when it is done. But that is what the west thought when we entered binding arbitration. My concern is that the east pilots will continue to be angry and think up more and unusual ways to disregard legal rulings. Just going on past practices.

clear
Thanks for the response, I don't feel the E/T has a snowball's chance in PHX. The only reason it even materialized at all was because of the proposed DOH list. Doh die's so does E/T. On your other points, in a perect world, everyone stays put for the most part, but in the real world, when the attritions start, I feel they will flock in large numbers. On the MDA issue, it's not about re-ordering the east list at all, there was not anyone who expected to jump anyone else, simply be given credit for time at MDA because they were flying a/c on mainline cert. No different than metro jet. That was ALPA'S big screw up, the company won their griev. against MDA when they admitted MDA never really exsisted. They were free to do what ever they wanted with the airplanes and not have to live with the clause about change of control. Also, ALPA allowed MDA to hold PHL lec positions. Can't hold mainline LEC on furlough. So many screw ups, if MDA were shown as active, NIC would have moved DAVE O a few more positions down. Just my humble take,also if Judge decides for Nic, I will move on, won't be happy, but I'll move on. It will just confirm my bye-bye ALPA vote. If you come east you owe me a beer.

 

[nycbusdriver]

And this is what we are supremely thrilled about. No one has said we have won anything yet. But the chance to set this right is a huge opportunity.




I take it you only read the USAPA update. Any rational person who read Judge Wake's ruling from beginning to end would at the very least understand we are hanging on by sturdy steel cable. No guarantee but... Well let's just say I feel pretty darn good about our chances.

You don't really think ANY of this will end when Judge Wake rules, do you? Can you possibly be that naive? If the west wins, USAPA will appeal it. I suspect if USAPA wins, you westies will do the same. Your court case could very well end up in the Supreme Court given the new territory we are collectively treading. Any idea how long it will take to get past the appeals court stage?

If the appeals court finds the trial in Judge Wake's court in error, it will be sent back to be retried. And then it may get bounced around some more.

We could all be retired (you, too, westies) before the dust settles on ANY of these cases. Meantime, the company is not going to budge on any contract due to the pending litigation. (Can't say I blame them.) Enjoy your contract; it's going to be around for a long, long time.

(Oh, and be prepared to pay for BOTH sides of the litigation, westies. Defending the union is a germane expense, so even the non-members will pay to play in the big time courts...both sides. And we all know that Parker said ON CAMERA that he has to fire if payments to the union aren't made. Hope your kids like public school and community college.)

 

[Waketurbulence]

Well, to be honest, little of this "tit for tat" affects me anyway, so I may have over-reached on the dates of the west propaganda...you'll forgive me.

The 'tactical mistakes" are numerous...but lets keep it simple: TOTAL DEFIANCE and OPEN IGNORANCE of the new CBA that was VOTED ON BY ALL USAIRWAYS PILOTS...EAST AND WEST.

It was not a given USAPA would win, there are a few die-hards out east still....

After the legal vote..the west immediately launches an anti-USAPA campaign, starts up AWAPPA which advertises that they collect dues...ONLY from WEST pilots, BUT...(and this is good) they are an LLC...NOT a "representative" of west pilots.
"Army of Leonidas" magically appears as well, but seems to have conflicting 'warfare tactics" AGAINST USAPA..so they finally ameliorate into a semi-simbiotic anti-USAPA force.

Now, when faced with the reality that Parker cited, in no uncertain terms, the west has to join USAPA or be fired...in strict accordance with the law...the floodgates magically open? (although we've heard all the usual pontifications about this from active westies) Seems the "VIRUS 2" is to join and reach out a withered hand in exasperation that USAPA has so forsaken them....they look longingly to the Judge.....a tear runs down everyone's eye...

I don't need to quote chapter and verse, do I?

It's all out there, and we all know it.

You don't seem to be very informed.

AWAPPA does NOT "collect dues" from anyone. Any money is by voluntary contribution only.

Parker never said we have to "join" or be fired. No one ever has to join a union...what he said was they beleive section 29 is in effect. So you may be required to pay dues or be fired, but you don't ever have to join.

 

[V1cut]

You don't really think ANY of this will end when Judge Wake rules, do you? Can you possibly be that naive? If the west wins, USAPA will appeal it. I suspect if USAPA wins, you westies will do the same. Your court case could very well end up in the Supreme Court given the new territory we are collectively treading. Any idea how long it will take to get past the appeals court stage?

If the appeals court finds the trial in Judge Wake's court in error, it will be sent back to be retried. And then it may get bounced around some more.

We could all be retired (you, too, westies) before the dust settles on ANY of these cases. Meantime, the company is not going to budge on any contract due to the pending litigation. (Can't say I blame them.) Enjoy your contract; it's going to be around for a long, long time.

(Oh, and be prepared to pay for BOTH sides of the litigation, westies. Defending the union is a germane expense, so even the non-members will pay to play in the big time courts...both sides. And we all know that Parker said ON CAMERA that he has to fire if payments to the union aren't made. Hope your kids like public school and community college.)

Thanks...NYC, I hesitated to go there, but it is what it is..

I guess no westie has thought about the appellate process and how long and expensive it is....especially considering our seemingly nice west 25 year guy on the tape who has to pay for "both sides of the case"...yep...exactly right.

Well, sue away, I guess.