US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 2/24-3/3

[souperfly]

Uh...excuse me, any DFR ruling either way affects the NIC list not one iota. You make a case of DFR. I think your argument is DOH is not fair. Underpants correctly said yesterday that the worst case scenario for USAPA is actually "renegotiating" some kind of list...but your precious Nic does not have to be the barometer of such list.
take a breath, read up on a few things I've suggested, rethink your position, and ask questions as necessary for your understanding of the reality of your situation.

 

[Metroyet]

Uh...excuse me, any DFR ruling either way affects the NIC list not one iota. You make a case of DFR. I think your argument is DOH is not fair. Underpants correctly said yesterday that the worst case scenario for USAPA is actually "renegotiating" some kind of list...

If you believe the worst case scenario for the east is having to "renegotiate" you are putting too much faith in your jr. varsity ambulance chasing legal team.

Read the transcripts. The Judge opened the door for monetary restitution for out of seniority damages himself. It's all there in plain english. Read it. That way, when usapa gets its ass handed to it in court...again, you can't act as shocked as you were when Nic produced his list. Speaking of which, Nic was a result of a fair, binding due process. USAPAs fantasy list was created by a handfull of easties with the benefit of hindsight, and zero participation from the west and presented as a cram down.

Which list do you think hold more water in the court system? What's your common sense tell you?

 

[souperfly]

If you believe the worst case scenario for the east is having to "renegotiate" you are putting too much faith in your jr. varsity ambulance chasing legal team.

Read the transcripts. The Judge opened the door for monetary restitution for out of seniority damages himself. It's all there in plain english. Read it. That way, when usapa gets its ass handed to it in court...again, you can't act as shocked as you were when Nic produced his list. Speaking of which, Nic was a result of a fair, binding due process. USAPAs fantasy list was created by a handfull of easties with the benefit of hindsight, and zero participation from the west and presented as a cram down.

Which list do you think hold more water in the court system? What's your common sense tell you?

I have assumed that because of your prolific posting that you were someone of decision-making ability out west. Your posts have proved that to not be the case. You suggest that the lack of west participation in it's new union dictates that union's responsibilities to the west. You could not be more wrong. The failure of AOL and AWAPPA over the last years was assuming that by "taking their ball home"...fate would follow.
Actually, by failing to participate in the day-to-day functions of their union, they handed over their "keys" to complete strangers' out East. Brilliant, don't you think? And you continue TO THIS DAY to hand over the keys to your future to complete strangers out east...and then sue them for not bowing to your dictates. Again, brilliant.

You will wind up with NO recompense...even if you win this DFR...which is a long-shot at best.

USAPA will (if they happen to lose) derive another seniority list that satisfies their CBL's...one way or another.

You must read more...you are shorting yourself.

 

[nic4us]

I would like to know how all of you interpret Doug P's response in the PHX 12/08 crew news video to the AB captain asking why the NIC list has not been implemented ???

Here is what I heard. Doug says about 4 times we accepted the NIC list.

He goes on to say, USAPA is the new bargaining agent and the company has an obligation to bargain for the new contract with USAPA, and said contract will no doubt incorporate a seniority list. However, the dispute as to that list is between America West pilots and USAPA and the company will not resolve that dispute for them.

He reinterates there is ongoing litigation and definitely signals the position of the company. That position being, we are not quite of the hook yet and we would like to stay out of the courtroom if at all possible, so He says a whole bunch of nothing other than he is not willing to say that at this time the NIC is the official list of a combined USAirways.

He does also say that the company will honor its contracts. But goes round and round in circles as to what those contracts are, or who is party to them, or wether or not they are negotiable, or which sections are in force and which are not. This is evident when the questioner points out that ALPA is listed over 400 times and it is the companies position that any where it says ALPA replace with USPAP, but yet this one time when it comes to section 4 of the TA disregard that?

So in a nutshell he is unwilling to say NIC is the official list of a combined USAirways, but he never said it will not be. He is leaving it up to the judge.

 

[souperfly]

correct. And if the judge tries to cram the Nic down the throat of a union in direct violation of their CBL's...he faces a littany of legal issues as well.
checkmate.
USAPA will derive a "new" list if it has to.
And about 60 west pilots can vote.
Brilliant.
I have to say this, in light of the popularity of this statement by Doug Parker. That he "accepted" the "list" does NOT mean it is "THE LIST" for the seniority system going forward. It means it satisfied the company's requirements regarding any such list that may be ratified by a properly executed contract between the company and the union.(ALPA)
Hmmm. Did ALPA ever get that?
I know you hate this: checkmate.
The pilots of USAirways have determined that a new union would best represent the majority of it's pilots by a legal vote and the NMB certified such vote.

Sell the corvette.

 

[nic4us]

Uh...excuse me, any DFR ruling either way affects the NIC list not one iota. You make a case of DFR. I think your argument is DOH is not fair. Underpants correctly said yesterday that the worst case scenario for USAPA is actually "renegotiating" some kind of list...but your precious Nic does not have to be the barometer of such list.

The worst case scenario for USAPA is about to be realized. On April 1 when their dues collection comes into question. When the Addington trial starts, and their defense is "we can because we do not think NIC is fair".

Back to Doug's crew room video. USAPA can appeal or do whatever they want if they loose Addington. But I am certain, if judge Wake finds in favor of AOL, Addington et.al. the next time Doug is asked if he is willing to say that the NIC is the official system seniority list of a combined USAirways, the answere will be "Well yes, of course it is".

 

[ableoneable]

correct. And if the judge tries to cram the Nic down the throat of a union in direct violation of their CBL's...he faces a littany of legal issues as well.

checkmate.

USAPA will derive a "new" list if it has to.

And about 60 west pilots can vote.

Brilliant.

Man, are you out of touch.

Should the court rule that USAPA has breached it's duty to fairly represent the west pilots the judge has wide latitude to impose a solution. The CB&Ls will have little meaning if the court decides that they are part of the problem. Modifying the CB&Ls would be well within his powers. He could even go as far as to order that the Nicolau list be implemented immediately. I am not saying that he will but he certainly could.

 

[souperfly]

And I bought the "vacu-stallion" on ebay recently too. I am not placing my beliefs on what that *&****& says. He's a liar and a cheat. But he knows where the liability lies with the company. To date, you have no case.
When you do, we'll talk.

 

[nic4us]

correct. And if the judge tries to cram the Nic down the throat of a union in direct violation of their CBL's...he faces a littany of legal issues as well.

checkmate.

USAPA will derive a "new" list if it has to.

And about 60 west pilots can vote.

Brilliant.

Oh.. Oh.. the judge might be worried that USAPA is going to appeal his decision.

I fail to see any legal issues a judge would face by telling a union that their C&BLs are flawed, and not to be followed in this instance.

Hardly, checkmate more of a continuing stalemate.

 

[souperfly]

Man, are you out of touch.

Should the court rule that USAPA has breached it's duty to fairly represent the west pilots the judge has wide latitude to impose a solution. The CB&Ls will have little meaning if the court decides that they are part of the problem. Modifying the CB&Ls would be well within his powers. He could even go as far as to order that the Nicolau list be implemented immediately. I am not saying that he will but he certainly could.

The court cannot impose a solution that violates the CBL's of a properly sanctioned union without cause. The "problem" CBL's are the same ones your flight attendants use. The same one the mechanics' use...etc etc etc. This is a big problem for your case which you prefer to ignore.

Keep rubbing the donkey...he likes it.

 

[retiresoon]

There is no such thing as "tyranny of the majority". That is the very definition of a democratic manner of deciding issues. That is why USAPA is working to enable your (the west's) ability to speak on your behalf, to advance your agenda in front of all others. To bring issues that concern minorities to all. They are trying to save you from yourselves.

I love this "tyranny of the majority=democracy" thing.

So, sharktooth, are you telling me that in ALL situations (including this fight), that whatever the majority decides is moral and correct?

this is a simple yes or no question...i.e. answer yes or no....

 

[Metroyet]

The court cannot impose a solution that violates the CBL's of a properly sanctioned union without cause.

You realize that Addington will establish "Cause" right? Do you have the slightest understanding of what is happening out here in Fed. court or are you just relying on B.S. CLT updates? It's obvious it's the latter.

 

[souperfly]

Addington?
You're about to lose that case.
The minute they take the stand, it's over.
Any other questions for me to help you understand the severity of your perdicament?

 

[ableoneable]

The court cannot impose a solution that violates the CBL's of a properly sanctioned union without cause. The "problem" CBL's are the same ones your flight attendants use. The same one the mechanics' use...etc etc etc. This is a big problem for your case which you prefer to ignore.

Keep rubbing the donkey...he likes it.

The finding of a failure to fairly represent the west pilots would be the "cause" allowing the court to modify the CB&Ls.

The fact that other unions use these CB&L's has no bearing on the case because their unions had DOH as part of their merger policy while ALPA did not. Therefore this presents absolutely no problem for the west's legal case.

 

[EastUS]

You realize that Addington will establish "Cause" right? Do you have the slightest understanding of what is happening out here in Fed. court or are you just relying on B.S. CLT updates? It's obvious it's the latter.

What's actually "obvious", at least to any thinking person, is that there's no possible way to know the future outcome of any trial, especially one dependant upon any jury's take on things. Even this little truth seems entirely absent from your portfolio of perspectives on "certainties" out there. Only time will tell the tale. We've all our opinions, and you'ld have to offer me very generous odds indeed for me to wager on a west triumph...but we simply can't tell at this point.