US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 2/24-3/3

[BoeingBoy]

Actually USAPA could renegotiate the TA - They're already negotiating both East & West contracts.

Doing what souperfly suggests - eliminating the West min fleet language - would merely be another nail in the DFR coffin, however.

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

If two parties to a contract agree to renegotiate it, they can. It's just that simple.

really? If it's so simple, then why has USAPA been an unmitigated failure half way through their tenure?

The Judge told you guys flat out...Majority doesn't rule.

Let it go.

 

[EastUS]

Well, news flash: nobody on the West agrees.....

That's nice, and must naturally be of huge concern to any/all out east, given your so-very-cordial treatment of the east people to date. No matter, let's cut to the chase. So....among all your rabidly barking "Death to USAPA" puppies: How many votes do you actually have out there at present? Just a thought. Seriously though; I can't see the union willingly gutting any aspect of the existent contract protections for min fleet for either group, as it'd be an unprincipled action in extremis, and self defeating for all involved in any case. Quite honestly..It long ago occurred to me that just such a thing would indeed be fully possible. I'm very certain that this was hardly any unique thought of my own. At the peaks of all the "And we hate you guys"..."You know why I hate youse guys"etc, ad nauseum from the west...and much to my personal discredit; it almost seemed like a pleasant thought, but there's that little problem with actual principles The west and east people, in the final analysis, are all in this mess together as members of the same trade/class and/or if you will; profession. We've, (as groups of pilots, not neccessarilly as individuals) far more in common than we have as differences, and the only ones reasonably laughing themselves nearly to death over all the east-west conflict are a few lawyers and all of upper management.

 

[nic4us]

These days it actually takes money to buy something, sport.

Then in this economic enviroment all this talk of merger is irrelevant.

"Sport"? if you knew me you would realize that is actually very funny.

 

[Metroyet]

Your boy Brice isn't going to get any traction pursuing his "west agenda" as he is...he'll find that out soon enough.

Wow. I'm shocked!

Another threat issued by the wholly impotent useless organization. Lemme guess Brice can expect to be sued? I hope so. Lee Seham has done more solidify the Wests lawsuit than anyone else. My Dad always said that if you find yourself in a hole, it's best to stop digging. Unbelievable that a group of adults can be so oblivious.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"If two parties to a contract agree to renegotiate it, they can."

Well, news flash: nobody on the West agrees to permit usapa to re-negotiate any aspect of the current West book. Period.

Threatening someone is a strange way to make friends. But then, nothing this nouveau union does surprises any longer.

Well, news flash. The "west" is NOT one of the parties. USAPA and the company are the parties to the contracts involved. The sooner the "west" lets this fact sink in, the better off the "west" may be.

Or, let me put it in another way. The only people in the "west" who count for anything, in that they have a voice in the matter, are the 60 or 70 pilots in good standing with the union.

 

[souperfly]

Actually USAPA could renegotiate the TA - They're already negotiating both East & West contracts.

Doing what souperfly suggests - eliminating the West min fleet language - would merely be another nail in the DFR coffin, however.

Jim

I never suggested anything. Re-read my post if you need to. I referenced the discussion between a west pilot and AH in a PHX crew news. And the topic was min fleet/ block hours. Don't put words in my mouth. While the west asserts that USAPA is ignoring them, not defending them, not representing them...etc etc..USAPA is, in fact, holding the line and slugging it out every day FOR them...regardless of west propaganda. That USAPA continued to do this while they actually have the authority to (re)negotiate all aspects of ALL agreements...they have not.

Thats what I said.

What prompted that thought process was this bizarre idea by some west posters' that USAPA is rendered powerless by agreements made by the previous union, that ALPA has a life-long obligation to enforce those instruments, and therefore they can bash and say whatever they want about USAPA...while they can say what they want, the rest of that fantasy is just that.

 

[souperfly]

"It is acknowledged that USAPA has the ability to (re)negotiate any existing east or west agreement currently in place...to include the TA. "

What?!?! Have you been drinking? Where did you come up with something like this? Sure usapa can negotiate an entirely new contract - and is responsible for providing one that is fair to all. But the TA and any current West contract are NOT exposed targets for the east.

Man, you guys sure love to pull nonsense out of thin air....and certain other unmentionable body orifices.

Does usapa have an official minister of dis-information? If not, you should apply. Sheesh......

I suggest you read up on the facts at hand. Certainly before you make comments like these again. How can you not know this?
I guess I'm glad I brought it up, since it appears to be an education for some of you.

 

[nic4us]

Actually, I'd like to revisit something underpants said earlier...and something that AH mentioned in a crew news recently.
It is acknowledged that USAPA has the ability to (re)negotiate any existing east or west agreement currently in place...to include the TA. The original issue being discussed with AH was the min fleet/block hours for the west.
I'd suggest that you guys out in desertville start making a few friends at USAPA...seems they hold the keys to your kingdom after all.

Souperfly,

USAPA holds the keys, but unfortunately they use them to lock the West behind doors.

Some out east say as a line holding 320 capt I am protected by DOH with C&Rs. Well here is the crux of the matter. I am far greater protected by my seniority on the NIC. USAPA's attempt to take away that seniority is a direct discrimination against me and my fellow West pilots, and it has been pointed out, a union has a duty not to discriminate against those it represents.

So, yes I agree USAPA can renegotiate contracts but they cannot do it to the detriment of a select group of their constituents.

The NIC was arbitrated by a third party panel, in compliance with the tenants of ALPA merger policy, and accepted by the company as being in compliance with the TA. It is the only combined seniority list that could be included in any joint contract, less the union is negligent in their DFR.

This was all pointed out to USAPA before the election. This is the gapping whole in their plan to unilateraly determine seniority for the company. Out West, until USAPA handed their DOH list in negotiations, we were still trying to figure out wether USAPA was serious or just trying to stall and remain in seperate ops. Well now we know.

USAPA campaigned on the promise of throwing out the NIC.
They originated in a van on the way back from Herndon, seeking a way to throw out the NIC.
Their original web site proclaimed they would right this wrong, i.e. throw out the NIC.
Their original CB&Ls listed institute a DOH seniority system ahead of promote safety.
Their lawyer said they could offer a cost neutral contract in exange for DOH, on video no less.

So, unless USAPA can explain to me, the West pilots, Judge Wake and a jury, how changing my seniority and putting me junior to every east pilot including furloughed at time of merger does not harm me, then they are negligent in their DFR. Perhaps they could point to their C&R's that grant any growth to the east, or better yet, guarantee that I could be furloughed before those who were furloughed at the time of the merger.

 

[Metroyet]

Well, news flash. The "west" is NOT one of the parties. USAPA and the company are the parties to the contracts involved. The sooner the "west" lets this fact sink in, the better off the "west" may be.

Once again, the East wants everything to go whichever way suits them. The TA is in full effect. Nobody disputes that. Dual ratification is at the heart of the "transition". So, you really believe that usapa can "renegotiate" away dual ratification? That would be the very definition of a DFR lawsuit. Go ahead. Keep on trying.

Just because you guys used your majority to attempt to steal that agreed upon right away, does not mean you succeeded. This false assumption that you can do whatever you wish with impunity is a big reason why you're in court and why things look very bad for your side as the Judge has warned time and again. Do you honestly believe that there is truly no repercussions for what you guys are attempting? Your side is working tirelessly, with your apparent full consent, to strip the West of the right to vote. A meaningful vote as outlined in the TA, not the fake, BS vote that usapa is touting about as an adequate replacement. This is America and I'm ashamed and embarrassed for you for so happily stomping on the American way. Fortunately for us, this still is America and you guys are firmly on the wrong side of the Law.

I've tried to put myself in your shoes and I understand the emotions to an extent. However, I have a feeling that in the back of the heads of the average Eastie, he/she, knows that there is something fundamentally wrong with what USAPA is attempting to get away with. They know that this is a cowardly, underhanded tactic that is doomed to fail in the end. Not every Eastie can be so fundamentally delusional as some of the more vocal.

 

[luvn737s]

Calm down everybody. Parker already said he'll only negotiate a joint contract and if he wanted to gut the T/A Bradford would have already handed him the pen if he thought it would buy him the DOH list.

USAPA holds the keys... to a combination lock!

 

[souperfly]

Calm down everybody. Parker already said he'll only negotiate a joint contract and if he wanted to gut the T/A Bradford would have already handed him the pen if he thought it would buy him the DOH list.

USAPA holds the keys... to a combination lock!

Thats just silly. Yes, Parker will only negotiate a joint contract, in the meantime, they are attempting to chisel away at the current contracts, because a joint contract is going to cost the company a chunk of cash. And yes, USAPA is working on the west's behalf as they've done from the beginning.

There is no combination lock...only ongoing negotiations between USAPA and the Company...no "East", no "West" and certainly no ALPA.

Get a grip.

 

[Metroyet]

no "East", no "West" and certainly no ALPA.

Get a grip.

I'll wait for Judge Wake to rule on the Class Certification issue before I "get a grip". I recommend you do the same.

I feel it's a slam dunk. If i'm right, then there will most certainly be an East and West and usapa, will as usual, be powerless to stop it.

 

[sharktooth]

Your side is working tirelessly, with your apparent full consent, to strip the West of the right to vote. A meaningful vote as outlined in the TA, not the fake, BS vote that usapa is touting about as an adequate replacement. This is America and I'm ashamed and embarrassed for you for so happily stomping on the American way. Fortunately for us, this still is America and you guys are firmly on the wrong side of the Law.

and so that is why USAPA is working tirelessly to get west pilots to ante up and pay their membership fees so that they can, indeed, legally vote?

There is nothing in the "American way" that guarantees you will win a vote, yet, that seems to be just what you are saying. There is no such thing as "tyranny of the majority". That is the very definition of a democratic manner of deciding issues. That is why USAPA is working to enable your (the west's) ability to speak on your behalf, to advance your agenda in front of all others. To bring issues that concern minorities to all. They are trying to save you from yourselves.

Those who have not yet paid membership fees should have been terminated by now, the only issue I have with USAPA is the apparent coddling of unprofessional and immature pilots.

 

[hp_fa]

Does anyone know if the class certification issue has been fully briefed to the Court and when a decision is expected?