US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/16-22

[nycbusdriver]

Question for the East.


Do you think most east pilots would accept the Nic if there were provisions made for all East attrition?

Yes.

That is the crux of the entire situation.

But the west wants the lottery ticket cashed in a lump sum and will not consider anything else.

Compromise has been requested ad nauseam with no avail, and that is why we are in court.

Nice thought, though, Johnny.

 

[cleardirect]

Even without that provision we still have greater attrition with a DOH seniority list. The question is how can you protect everyone. Well you can't. In any merger there are some that are hurt. However ,you can have protections that protect both sides in keeping what they had at the merger. I still can't see any problem with that. Then through natural attrition everyone moves up.

I don't think anyone has told the west that the east pilots are older and will be retiring soon.

I have yet to hear a west pilot admit where on a DOH list he/she will be in 7-10 years. Pretty nice I will admit.
And a bonus of the opportunity to fly the 76 and 330, 350 WHICH YOU NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO FLY BEFORE THE MERGER!!!

Lets get real with this drivel and get back to common sense


wopr

For all of you that continue to complaint about your attrition. I suggest that you go and read the NWA/DAL merger. They address attrition and all the other arguments made about why you think the Nicolau is unfair to you. This is just one section explaining attrition.

Second your argument that we should just wait 7-10 years before the west gets any benefit from this merger. Who is going to guarantee that US Airways is around then? USAPA going to put up a $ 1Billion dollar bond to pay us if the airline folds? In 1998 did any of you know that you would be in your second bankruptcy and be acquired by AWA? We still hold IOU’s from three years ago for three 757 captain slots and 1/3 of the 190’s. Still can’t collect on that small amount. And you guys want us to wait 7-10 years for the entire airline. This is after you have threatened to “burn the place downâ€￾. No thanks.

Equity demands that the Northwest pilots’ expectations not be fully foiled by the merger. Fairness, however, requires some tempering of the potential impact power of the adjustment mechanism. It would be myopic for this Board to focus solely on the stand-alone attrition expectations of the NWA pilot group. We accept they may constitute a legitimate career expectation, but one must also consider other elements reasonably regarded as potentially dampening those expectations.20

20 It is also appropriate to consider gains that flow from the merger. While it is true that both pilot forces are compensated relatively well, by comparison with the average U.S. airline, it is also the case that, on a stand-alone basis, Northwest Pilots were paid less than their counterparts at Delta. Due to the success of the parties in bargaining a new Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (“JCBAâ€￾) effective October 30, 2008, (October 30, 2008, is the date of corporate closing of the merger.) Northwest Pilots enjoyed immediate benefits averaging 9.51% across the group. Delta characterizes this as equivalent to the value of one to two-and-one-half upgrades, depending on the equipment type, for each pre-merger pilot. (See DX-21 at 11-13; DX-37 at 2; Tr., 2549-55.)

Sound familiar? The east is going to get an 18% raise out of this deal. NWA is only getting a 9.5%. So the arbitrators accepting Delta logic that equals one to one and a half upgrades. An 18% raise should be equal to two to three upgrades for the east. The NWA/DAL pilot group was much closer in demographics than we are. Yet the THREE arbitrators looked at the same arguments made by both sides and decided that even though there were near, DOH was still unfair. Now look at our situation and more then double the inequities. You will begin to see why Nicolau did what he did.

Read the entire thing. It answers a lot of questions. It has been more than a week. Why has USAPA completely ignored this decision? Maybe it completely destroys their arguments for delaying all of our contract.

 

[electricjet98]

1. USAPA is apparently very concerned about the possibility that it's attorney's advice prior to it becoming the bargaining agent will is or will become discoverable and that there is a real possibility that Seham will be called as a witness at trial by the plaintiffs. This is never good news in any litigated matter.

This is getting very interesting and both the clock and the meter are running quickly.

The word I'm getting (nothing published, just hearsay) is that the Judge ruled that since Sehem is/was USAPA's attorney, he is therefore the attorney of west just as much as east pilots. Everything will be discoverable (west & east must have equal access to his information) and he may be called to give testimony.

Their is no attorney/client privelage since all pilots, east & west, are his clients.

 

[hp_fa]

The word I'm getting (nothing published, just hearsay) is that the Judge ruled that since Sehem is/was USAPA's attorney, he is therefore the attorney of west just as much as east pilots. Everything will be discoverable (west & east must have equal access to his information) and he may be called to give testimony.

I believe that is true once USAPA became the bargaining agent however I am not sure of the period before of that. That decision by the judge will be interesting to me.

 

[Metroyet]

Yes.

Compromise has been requested ad nauseam with no avail, and that is why we are in court.

Here is a synapsis of the "Ad nauseam compromise" you guys have unwaiveringly insisted upon since day 1.


DOH

I seriously doubt there is a settlement in anybodies future. Judge Wakes ruling will be the sum total and yes, FINAL discussion on this rotten matter.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes.

That is the crux of the entire situation.

But the west wants the lottery ticket cashed in a lump sum and will not consider anything else.

Compromise has been requested ad nauseam with no avail, and that is why we are in court.

Nice thought, though, Johnny.

Interesting turn of a phrase. “Compromise has been requested.â€￾ That implies that the east wants something from us.

Where has compromised been OFFERED?

The reason that we are in court is not because the west has refused to give in. Otherwise USAPA would be the plaintiff not the defendant. The reason that we are in court is because USAPA has not represented the west fairly. Which stems from the facts fact that the east wants us to compromise to the east position of the hard line DOH.

No one here wants a lump sum payment. We all agree that we share the ups and downs going forward. What ever that is. It is the east that wants the lump sum payment. Which side is demanding the payoff now and offering an IOU some 7- 10 years down the road?

How many times have we heard the west will inherit the airline in 7-10 years just wait. So who wants the lump sum payoff?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I believe that is true once USAPA became the bargaining agent however I am not sure of the period before of that. That decision by the judge will be interesting to me.

Why not before the election? After all, we were one class and craft, and the west participated in the collection of cards and the vote. I would think before the election would count as well.

At any rate, I hope it is. It would provide even more evidence as to how one sided this usapa experiment has been.

 

[hp_fa]

Why not before the election?

The argument would be that prior to becoming the bargaining agent, USAPA did not owe a duty to anyone. Advice that Seham may have given Bradford, and perhaps any officers and directors of USAPA in that period, could be confidential if the attorney-client privilege was not waived by any actions of Bradford or any agents, directors or officers of USAPA. Waiver of the attorney-client privilege can occur when the client shares information received by counsel outside of the folks covered by that privilege, in this case the agents, officers and directors of USAPA.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I see, that makes sense. Thank you hp fa.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Seham is so arrogant that he spelled it out for everyone to hear. Prior to USAPA's reign as CBA this is what Mr. Seham had to say regarding Nicolau. Is there any wonder that the east pilots bought into USAPA's b.s.?

The east pilots lead counsel:

Fast forward to 4:00 into the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xO8PnZWWnE...2CF&index=4

 

[wopr21]

Wopr,

I have answered this question before. I suppose you dismissed me because you did not like the answere. On a DOH list I will be employed elsewhere, as I do not wish to wait 10+ years to get back to where I was before the merger so that furloughs who would have had no opportunity to fly any equiptment on the property can take their turn with my job.

I do not think anyone has told the east yet, it is not your attrition anymore. Your higher attrition is part of the decision handed down in the NIC. It is offset by the fact that your attrition was not outpacing your downsizing. You are no longer entitled to all of it. You have to share 1/3 of it with the West. Further, In case you missed it 60% of your attrition is junior to lets say ME!

Sorry Nic4you.

I'll keep it simple this time.... How many west pilots and how many east pilots will be on the seniority list in 7-10 years, and what will that ratio be? I believe you will see that it will favor the west.

Even with furloughs coming back ahead of you with 60% younger, according to you, the company has to hire replacement pilots and therefore you move up.

As I said before you cant look into the future and project where you will be, only what your NIC landfall scratch-off lotto ticket you got lucky with.

I don't want your job or way of life. That is what you have earned though your DOH.

I have also earned, though DOH, my position and way of life.

As you see we are in a battle not only for what is principally and morally correct not only for all of us here at Usairways but the future of the industry. Why do you think that UA is looking at DOH again.

The problem here is that there is a large disparity in age between us unlike the DL/NW deal.

I also believe that the company could have and still can be more proactive in the mess.

This whole is just getting deeper.

Regards to you and enjoy the holidays

wopr

 

[fodase]

I have also earned, though DOH, my position and way of life.



wopr

Funny, the Nic. didnt touch a single position, you kept your position. Yeah that's not as good as getting it all with doh now is it? The audacity of the east, in the face of nwa/dal, is mind-blowing.

 

[fodase]

From usapawatch.com

TheEye literally performed hundreds Google searches for a labor law firm with RLA experience and not once did the name James K. Brengle appear. Thankfully, the hack communications team at USAPA headquarters attached Mr. Brengle’s resume to their update so we could read about his long career representing labor and fighting for workers rights. After all, according to Mr. Bradford, this case is about protecting the long standing labor principle of DOH seniority.



Imagine our disappointment when we reached page five and still couldn’t find his crowning moment defending labor. His top notables included:



-Defended major manufacturer of drywall and pipe covering in litigation arising from injuries allegedly related to asbestos exposure.



-Acted as counsel for major oil company in defense of numerous Jones Act cases involving the injury of workers at sea.



-Successfully defended automotive parts manufacturer in jury trial regarding wrongful death claims allegedly related to asbestos exposure.



The list goes on and on, but we’re confident you get the drift. Mr. Brengle is no friend of labor.



So why would Mr. Bradford and the BPR hire a Philadelphia trial lawyer with no labor experience? The answer is probably as simple as no self respecting labor law firm was willing to take the case. Remember, USAPA only started funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to Mr. Seham’s firm after being turned down by every other firm they propositioned. Mr. Bradford and his cohorts conspired with Mr. Seham to hoodwink the majority of east pilots that a vote for USAPA was a vote for DOH and the end of Nicolau. Eight months and two pilot lawsuits later, USAPA had to scramble to replace Seham as the line between his roles as attorney, witness, and defendant were no longer clear.



It was clear from the USAPA introduction of Mr. Brengle, that Mr. Seham’s firm will remain the primary counsel for USAPA. As members, we’re curious to know why? Did Mr. Bradford sign a contract with Seham Seham Meltz and Petersen guaranteeing his employ for a defined period of time? What is the financial arrangement between USAPA and Mr. Seham’s firm? Under what circumstances can the contract be severed? What type of retainer and financial arrangement was negotiated with Mr. Brengle’s firm?



Every dues paying USAPA member has the right to know the answers to the above questions. With potential multi million dollar judgments looming in the Addington and Empire cases, this information needs to be provided immediately.



As we wrote in our last entry The season of giving, it is essential that the line pilots rise up and demand accountability before it’s too late.


We have the power, let's use it!

 

[wopr21]

Funny, the Nic. didnt touch a single position, you kept your position. Yeah that's not as good as getting it all with doh now is it? The audacity of the east, in the face of nwa/dal, is mind-blowing.

YES.. I kept my position "today"...agreed , but again I ask what is the ratio in the "Future". Thats where the NIC had the windfall.

YOU GET IT ALL WITH DOH AS TIME PASSES.

Do I need a longer 2x4!!!

wopr

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

YES.. I kept my position "today"...agreed , but again I ask what is the ratio in the "Future". Thats where the NIC had the windfall.

YOU GET IT ALL WITH DOH AS TIME PASSES.

Do I need a longer 2x4!!!

wopr

No, you just need to use it on yourself.