Us Airways Is Not Only One Facing Outsourcing
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
Hawk
Member
- Sep 28, 2003
- 87
- 0
The unions must decide how much do they value their employment. Are the employees willing to do everything possible to save this company? Most employees will answer YES to this question. The issue at hand is saving the company. It is not about what is in it for me. TEAM does not have the letter “Iâ€. This is not the time to be egocentric. The employee sacrifices should be commended. It has been a long and arduous road. The LCC’s have put us in a position where we have to do more. CASM will be reduced, one way or the other.
I have done a great deal to save this company, but I am NOT willing to do everything possible. Everything means working for minimum wage, no health or retirement benefits, no vacation, etc.
Furthermore, my counterpart at WN made more than me PRE-concessions. Now he makes a LOT more. Obviously, there is more wrong at U than labor costs.
"Everything"? You're kidding, right?
Furthermore, my counterpart at WN made more than me PRE-concessions. Now he makes a LOT more. Obviously, there is more wrong at U than labor costs.
"Everything"? You're kidding, right?
HAWK....a perfect name for a predatory "Bird-Brain"
You give until you bleed......we are not going to carry you on our backs at slave wages.
Make up you mind to accept pay levels in line with your performance....and just maybe we might break even inspite of you?
You give until you bleed......we are not going to carry you on our backs at slave wages.
Make up you mind to accept pay levels in line with your performance....and just maybe we might break even inspite of you?
Hawk must be management. For he cannot the forest through the trees. Labor costs are not the issue Hawk! The problem is generating revenue. Something the everyday worker cannot do directly, but do indirectly every day by doing a tremendous job inspite of MBAs getting in the way.
Please answer this Hawk. How do you respond to the number put recently that put US Airways labor cost 30.4% of total costs, less than the other majors, and in line with the average of the LCCs? My answer is any cost problem is not with labor, but with overhead (a management issue), and lack of revenues (again, a mangement issue).
Please answer this Hawk. How do you respond to the number put recently that put US Airways labor cost 30.4% of total costs, less than the other majors, and in line with the average of the LCCs? My answer is any cost problem is not with labor, but with overhead (a management issue), and lack of revenues (again, a mangement issue).
OP
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #38
Cav:
Cav said: “This is what I think: I think posters such as flyonthewall,Hawk, doitfordave, and other management officials have PMed Chip and they have made a deal. The deal being somewhat like this: Chip my man: you have such influence on these boards and SO many people read them that you can help us SCREW/BREAK/VIOLATE, just plain get rid of as MANY mechanics as possible under the guise of working with them, making a no furlough clause suggestion, basically soften them up for us.â€
Cav said: “Chip doesn't have the balls to even respond to my post. This guy is so self centered believing the world revolves around himself only and aligns himself with those he believes will benefit him the most, in this case management. “
Chip answers: Cav, I am humbled that you believe I have such influence over the employee group and that I am viewed as a leader. However, I can assure you I do not have the power or authority to cut a deal. If I did, do you think I would have allowed our pension to be terminated, unlike any other US Airways employee? In regard to your comment of me not having “have the balls to even respond to my postâ€, I’m sorry but I do some other things in life than these message boards and tonight I ran our local township’s youth basketball program. Nonetheless, if you have any balls why don’t you honestly post your name instead of hiding behind a computer screen? I bet you do not have the courage to truly identify yourself.
Cav, whether we like it or not, the industry is changing and this week we saw a “shot across the bow†with Southwest’s entrance into Philadelphia. So go ahead, pound you chest, tell us about how you are being abused because the LCC’s are driving down revenue, tell us how this is all about being a union, and be just like Charlie Bryan and the Eastern IAM, who contributed to their company liquidating. Then look at the 28,000 other US Airways families and their children and tell hey, it’s all about union busting and we showed them. Then management can go get another job and you’ll be turning a wrench at Goodyear for $12 per hour. That will show em’ Cav.
By the way, would it be better to cut a deal with management that provides a no furlough clause due to outsourced work or to lose the appeal and have no protections?
Or for the good of the company, why don't you give up your pension like we did, which I endorsed at the end, and keep the A320 work in-house? Why not be a leader instead of bitching all the time about how the industry has changed?
With all due respect, maybe, just maybe, instead of thinking with emotion it may be better to think with logic so you can pay your mortgage and have a retirement, unlike your Eastern colleagues.
Regards,
Chip
Cav said: “This is what I think: I think posters such as flyonthewall,Hawk, doitfordave, and other management officials have PMed Chip and they have made a deal. The deal being somewhat like this: Chip my man: you have such influence on these boards and SO many people read them that you can help us SCREW/BREAK/VIOLATE, just plain get rid of as MANY mechanics as possible under the guise of working with them, making a no furlough clause suggestion, basically soften them up for us.â€
Cav said: “Chip doesn't have the balls to even respond to my post. This guy is so self centered believing the world revolves around himself only and aligns himself with those he believes will benefit him the most, in this case management. “
Chip answers: Cav, I am humbled that you believe I have such influence over the employee group and that I am viewed as a leader. However, I can assure you I do not have the power or authority to cut a deal. If I did, do you think I would have allowed our pension to be terminated, unlike any other US Airways employee? In regard to your comment of me not having “have the balls to even respond to my postâ€, I’m sorry but I do some other things in life than these message boards and tonight I ran our local township’s youth basketball program. Nonetheless, if you have any balls why don’t you honestly post your name instead of hiding behind a computer screen? I bet you do not have the courage to truly identify yourself.
Cav, whether we like it or not, the industry is changing and this week we saw a “shot across the bow†with Southwest’s entrance into Philadelphia. So go ahead, pound you chest, tell us about how you are being abused because the LCC’s are driving down revenue, tell us how this is all about being a union, and be just like Charlie Bryan and the Eastern IAM, who contributed to their company liquidating. Then look at the 28,000 other US Airways families and their children and tell hey, it’s all about union busting and we showed them. Then management can go get another job and you’ll be turning a wrench at Goodyear for $12 per hour. That will show em’ Cav.
By the way, would it be better to cut a deal with management that provides a no furlough clause due to outsourced work or to lose the appeal and have no protections?
Or for the good of the company, why don't you give up your pension like we did, which I endorsed at the end, and keep the A320 work in-house? Why not be a leader instead of bitching all the time about how the industry has changed?
With all due respect, maybe, just maybe, instead of thinking with emotion it may be better to think with logic so you can pay your mortgage and have a retirement, unlike your Eastern colleagues.
Regards,
Chip
Portion deleted by moderator flyonthewall got to you becuase in his PM's he is saying the EXACT same things. Hawk, doitfordave are also managements ilk’s and nothing but a bunch of union busting wind bags that have no idea how to run this airline other than turn it into a LCC poverty wage machine for the working poor.
As far as giving out my name, well Chip being you are pro management what do you have to fear letting the world know who you are? I will gladly met you one to one, driving to Deleted is only half hour away from here.
As far as your comment:“ With all due respect, maybe, just maybe, instead of thinking with emotion it may be better to think with logic so you can pay your mortgage and have a retirement, unlike your Eastern colleagues.â€
--- Working for this ill run company as long as I have, I wisely paid off everything and owe no one a dime. I can afford to raise holy hell and by God I will when people of this low level of human decency are running this airline into the ground and taking good working class people with it.
As far as giving out my name, well Chip being you are pro management what do you have to fear letting the world know who you are? I will gladly met you one to one, driving to Deleted is only half hour away from here.
As far as your comment:“ With all due respect, maybe, just maybe, instead of thinking with emotion it may be better to think with logic so you can pay your mortgage and have a retirement, unlike your Eastern colleagues.â€
--- Working for this ill run company as long as I have, I wisely paid off everything and owe no one a dime. I can afford to raise holy hell and by God I will when people of this low level of human decency are running this airline into the ground and taking good working class people with it.
Oliver Twist
Advanced
I have come to one conclusion here. I and my fellow U employees now make less than a comparable SW employee. They make money and we loose money. My salary is now about 75% of a SW agent. I think other groups can come up with numbers to easily show that agent for agentt, pilot for pilot, mechanic for mechanic, we, as a whole, make less than our counterparts at Southwest.
That said, I can now say without reservation that MY SALARY IS NO LONGER THE PROBLEM (despite the fact that I believe it never was the problem). So if Labor in general is not the problem, who is? I don't buy that inefficient crap either. We do far more at the airport with far fewer people than WN does.
So who is the problem? Fuel? No I dont think so. Every carrier has to deal with the same issues there. Is it the Planes? No we gouged our lessors there and only have 2 basic types now so thats not it either. Who is left then? Only 2 possible choices, the airports we fly into and our MANAGEMENT. The airports have and will take it in the shorts, so they won't be a problem for long. That leaves one group - our MANAGEMENT.
If we took a stroll down memory lane here we all remember High Ground, MetroJet, Business Select, Scrapping the FLA shuttle and many more. All BAD management mistakes WE are now paying for. Is Dave the devil everyone puts him to be? I don't know. Does he have a real "plan"? I don't know.
What I do know is this. I ain't the problem! So Dave and company, get off your collective butts and do something. Give me a reason to believe something you say. Right now, MAMAGEMENT'S "stock" with me is near ZERO!
This was and can be a great company. We need to fight for our right to survive. Fix the Fares, fix the Labor Shortages, fix the Customer Service issues and FIGHT BACK!
That said, I can now say without reservation that MY SALARY IS NO LONGER THE PROBLEM (despite the fact that I believe it never was the problem). So if Labor in general is not the problem, who is? I don't buy that inefficient crap either. We do far more at the airport with far fewer people than WN does.
So who is the problem? Fuel? No I dont think so. Every carrier has to deal with the same issues there. Is it the Planes? No we gouged our lessors there and only have 2 basic types now so thats not it either. Who is left then? Only 2 possible choices, the airports we fly into and our MANAGEMENT. The airports have and will take it in the shorts, so they won't be a problem for long. That leaves one group - our MANAGEMENT.
If we took a stroll down memory lane here we all remember High Ground, MetroJet, Business Select, Scrapping the FLA shuttle and many more. All BAD management mistakes WE are now paying for. Is Dave the devil everyone puts him to be? I don't know. Does he have a real "plan"? I don't know.
What I do know is this. I ain't the problem! So Dave and company, get off your collective butts and do something. Give me a reason to believe something you say. Right now, MAMAGEMENT'S "stock" with me is near ZERO!
This was and can be a great company. We need to fight for our right to survive. Fix the Fares, fix the Labor Shortages, fix the Customer Service issues and FIGHT BACK!
OP
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #41
Cav:
The issue here is not wages, but it's about a business model that no longer works for any network carrier, not just US Airways, just like what occurred in the steel and railroad industries.
Cav, you're bright and you understand the LCC threat as well as I do, but you are letting your emotions get in the way of logic and out-of-the-box thinking.
For those who want Southwest wages then would it be fair to accept Southwest work rules, where the company has no heavy maintenance?
I provided an opinion that could work to permit the company to lower unit costs and maintain active mechanic employment. Is it the best option? I do not know, but I do know that continued chest pounding serves no useful purpose.
Cav, you were the one who said I did not have any balls, well if you do, then truthfully identify yourself on this website and let everybody know who you are.
Cav, it takes courage to publicly bare your sole and to take abuse. I encourage you to do so and let people know who you are, what you stand for, and your opinions.
Can you do it and be honest about it?
Finally, I am glad you have put your personal finances in order, but how about your colleagues who are paying for their childs college education or have no other employment option. What about them? Or do you not care about them because your thoughts are obscured by emotion versus logic?
Since you have improved your financial position, since you said, "I can afford to raise holy hell and by God I will," what effect will this thought process have on other people on the US Airways team?
Regards,
Chip
The issue here is not wages, but it's about a business model that no longer works for any network carrier, not just US Airways, just like what occurred in the steel and railroad industries.
Cav, you're bright and you understand the LCC threat as well as I do, but you are letting your emotions get in the way of logic and out-of-the-box thinking.
For those who want Southwest wages then would it be fair to accept Southwest work rules, where the company has no heavy maintenance?
I provided an opinion that could work to permit the company to lower unit costs and maintain active mechanic employment. Is it the best option? I do not know, but I do know that continued chest pounding serves no useful purpose.
Cav, you were the one who said I did not have any balls, well if you do, then truthfully identify yourself on this website and let everybody know who you are.
Cav, it takes courage to publicly bare your sole and to take abuse. I encourage you to do so and let people know who you are, what you stand for, and your opinions.
Can you do it and be honest about it?
Finally, I am glad you have put your personal finances in order, but how about your colleagues who are paying for their childs college education or have no other employment option. What about them? Or do you not care about them because your thoughts are obscured by emotion versus logic?
Since you have improved your financial position, since you said, "I can afford to raise holy hell and by God I will," what effect will this thought process have on other people on the US Airways team?
Regards,
Chip
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
As soon as I hear about the LGA LEC tabling a motion to open the ALPA contract to mirror the LUV work rules, I'd be willing to listen.
Hawk:
Are you ever going to answer the question about how badly you guys messed up by not getting the necessary reductions while in Chapter 11, or does that one hit too close to home?
Hawk:
Are you ever going to answer the question about how badly you guys messed up by not getting the necessary reductions while in Chapter 11, or does that one hit too close to home?
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
Given that the current occupants at CCY won't take ideas from their employees, what makes you think they would take 'em from customers? Much less ones who work for companies that are actually making money?PineyBob said:
It's time to phone it in, Bob. These guys have a massive case of groupthink and cannot think outside the bounds of their almighty "plan." It's almost like the "on message" crap that comes out of the current White House--not demonstrative of any ability to adapt or show original thinking (despite whatever canned quote Dave dropped the other day).
OP
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #44
Clue:
I too would take the Southwest pilot contract, retirement plan, and work rules.
I could work overtime and if I did not do the O/T, I would at least receive a $50,000 per year raise.
Where can I sign up? In fact, would you lobby for this for me and the other pilots? I think your idea has merit, but it would raise the company's unit costs, which is not good and we both know it.
Clue, would you take the Southwest mechanic contract and work rules, where the company outsources all heavy maintenance?
Guys, you are all bright people and you understand the CASM issue and LCC threat, otherwise yesterday's thread titled LUV to PHL would not have received nearly 13,000 views in two days.
It's time for all of us to think-out-of the-box and stop the personal attacks. We are the company, not management. We will be here until the doors close or another opportunity presents itself.
Chest pounding and this belief that we are owed something in life will not cut it...just ask the Eastern mechanics or those furloughed. They will tell you what it's like out there.
Regards,
Chip
I too would take the Southwest pilot contract, retirement plan, and work rules.
I could work overtime and if I did not do the O/T, I would at least receive a $50,000 per year raise.
Where can I sign up? In fact, would you lobby for this for me and the other pilots? I think your idea has merit, but it would raise the company's unit costs, which is not good and we both know it.
Clue, would you take the Southwest mechanic contract and work rules, where the company outsources all heavy maintenance?
Guys, you are all bright people and you understand the CASM issue and LCC threat, otherwise yesterday's thread titled LUV to PHL would not have received nearly 13,000 views in two days.
It's time for all of us to think-out-of the-box and stop the personal attacks. We are the company, not management. We will be here until the doors close or another opportunity presents itself.
Chest pounding and this belief that we are owed something in life will not cut it...just ask the Eastern mechanics or those furloughed. They will tell you what it's like out there.
Regards,
Chip
OP
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #45
Just one more point...
Today Reuters reported In an interview, (United Airlines) Chief Executive Glenn Tilton said the improvement quarter-over-quarter was a "very encouraging set of developments."
However, he indicated that costs would continue to go lower through various initiatives like outsourcing.
"The work that is being done at the San Francisco maintenance center is recently initiated...we have a significant opportunity to improve that contribution to our overall CASM (cost per available seat mile)...we're going to keep constant pressure on CASM."
Chip comments: With US Airways and United both bankrupt companies, the United employees voted to close two of three heavy maintenance centers and to outsource some work. Although US Airways did close the Tampa maintenance facility, my idea would protect jobs and lower unit costs, which the United mechanics were unable to do.
However, if the US Airways IAM-M unit does not accept the company's offer to discuss options to keep the work in-house or to protect jobs, than how can any deal be obtained?
Moreover, would it be better to talk about potential options and not risk losing the appeal?
Regards,
Chip
Today Reuters reported In an interview, (United Airlines) Chief Executive Glenn Tilton said the improvement quarter-over-quarter was a "very encouraging set of developments."
However, he indicated that costs would continue to go lower through various initiatives like outsourcing.
"The work that is being done at the San Francisco maintenance center is recently initiated...we have a significant opportunity to improve that contribution to our overall CASM (cost per available seat mile)...we're going to keep constant pressure on CASM."
Chip comments: With US Airways and United both bankrupt companies, the United employees voted to close two of three heavy maintenance centers and to outsource some work. Although US Airways did close the Tampa maintenance facility, my idea would protect jobs and lower unit costs, which the United mechanics were unable to do.
However, if the US Airways IAM-M unit does not accept the company's offer to discuss options to keep the work in-house or to protect jobs, than how can any deal be obtained?
Moreover, would it be better to talk about potential options and not risk losing the appeal?
Regards,
Chip
Similar threads
