Us Airways Is Not Only One Facing Outsourcing

[AOG-N-IT]

Chip,
What you are outlining makes sense in a perfect world. However this is U and Dave , so a perfect world is as wide and varied as the ocean is deep.

I'm sure that the IAM would strike such a deal...If we were dealing with people that would honor what they've agreed too....then again the heat from the furloughee's may not sell that soap either?

Regarding what ALPA has done to date....Kid yourself till the cows come home on what was agreed too. , If you believe another shot isn't leveled at your head? You are simply looney tunes amigo !!

I don't believe for a second that what's been agreed upon will not have to be re-opened or amendable for all of us to survive...so don't kid yourself or your brothers and sisters that their previous sacrifices are going to shelter them from more of the same treatment.

I also do not kid myself about some positions within various unions (Excluding) ALPA and the AFA being outsourced entirely within our system.

 

[High Iron]

As usual Repeet, you think wrong.

I'm all in favor of contracts. The judge in the W.D. Pa made his decision. The company has appealed it. Whatever the 3d circuit rules is what the 3d circut rules.
And both IAM and the company will have to live with it.

However, there are some contracts that are so constrictive as to create unnecessary burdens. The repair contracts at companies like National and Bethlehem were just that way. As written before, it took four different work groups to repair an item that could have easily taken the efforts of one or two.

Yeah OK, it makes sense in principle, yet with a speciousness that kinda' brings the debate back to Square one.

Yes, out of all contracts everywhere, I'm sure there exist those that are were/are too "restrictive"...but it all begs questions:

1) Are you implying that yes, contracts have a right to exist....except where they are too restrictive?

2) ...and just who would have power of overriding judgement as to just what constitutes "too restrictive"? As you know, the less eloquent among pro-business mouthpieces ( I'm not taliking just airlines even ) have stated that labor, being merely a commodity, should ideally not even have the power of enforcable agreements as it hamstrings profits.

3) Just what is the purpose of an agreement if it can be circumvented by fiat?

 

[repeet]

ITRADE,

I'm glad you think I'm wrong. You can't grow in ideas and concepts without being challenged. On the other hand, here's my view of the Labor contract history you're quoting:
-----------------
From www.dictionary.com,

con·tract ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kontrakt)
n.

1.
1. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law. See Synonyms at bargain.
2. The writing or document containing such an agreement.
2. The branch of law dealing with formal agreements between parties.
----------------
When a Company (its' Managment, and the Lawyers they pay to advise them) enters into a contract; why should the conditions advantage or disadvantage only one side. These "Companies" negotiated and signed these contracts after usually months of contenteous negotiation.

If it becomes hard for the employees to operate under the negotiated terms they are told "Sorry, you agreed to it. If you don't like it, you can quit!".

When it becomes hard for the company to operate under the contract terms, maybe they should reconsider the competence of their negotiators and/or their management team.

But the concept that because they are an employer, or a large economic concern, cannot be used as a reason to exclude them from obeying their contract, or the law. Both of which are amendable by process.

 

[USA320Pilot]

AOG:

Pilot and F/A positions are being eliminated too through productivity changes, Pref Bid, and RJs. We are all facing the same issue, but my point is can there be a deal between the IAM-M and management to reach a deal that protects current active employees and helps the company fight the LCC's?

True, my suggestion will not help furloughees, but a dead company will not either.

Something has to be done to further lower unit costs and can we find a way to do it with the least impact on the mechanics?

My comments are a suggestion that may provide an answer to reduce the pain of this terrible restructuring to keep active mechanics employed and their paychecks, benefits, and retirement intact.

Regards,

Chip

 

[High Iron]

The issue is the industry is changing and either US Airways and its employees change or the airline will die.

In the case of my labor group, we provided two pay cuts and cut our pension by 50 to 70 percent to save the company. In addition, we were the only labor group to meet the company's cost cut targets. We adapted and now have contracts with pay, benefits, and retirement less than Southwest Airlines.

The network carrier airline industry has changed forever and it must lower its unit costs or legacy carrier's will become another Woolworth's, Amtrak, or Polaroid. Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, and now United are all are or will outsource heavy maintenance.

Why? To lower unit costs to compete.

All I am saying is that the United mechanics agreed to outsource some of their maintenance. In regard to US Airways, what if a deal could be struck to permit A320 outsourcing and in exchange the mechanics received a no furlough clause. Could there be a procedure put in place to reduce head count due to attrition to permit the airline to lower its unit costs to help the airline survive?

This is what ALPA did.

I wish this industry was not facing the enormous LCC pressure, but it is and either we continue to restructure or we die. What's the benefit in winning the battle if we lose the war? Just ask Charlie Bryan and the Eastern Air Lines mechanics.

Regards,

Chip

Ah, the decisive debate, finally!

"The issue is the industry is changing and either US Airways and its employees change or the airline will die."

So, this cliche is going to be the anchor of your whole argument? They are just words, and only apply in the non-specific and abstract sense. Depends just who is going to change and how....more on this later.

"In the case of my labor group, we provided two pay cuts and cut our pension by 50 to 70 percent to save the company. In addition, we were the only labor group to meet the company's cost cut targets. We adapted and now have contracts with pay, benefits, and retirement less than Southwest Airlines."

If the first sentence was the anchor, this is truly the crux of your argument. "We gave- you didn't...I got mine, the heck with you". If that's the way you feel, then say it chief. No need to ensconce it behind a veneer of civility.

"The network carrier airline industry has changed forever and it must lower its unit costs or legacy carrier's will become another Woolworth's, Amtrak, or Polaroid. Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, and now United are all are or will outsource heavy maintenance."

A department store? Puh-lease. Polaroid? Yeah, all the rage in the late-60s/early 70's. Nobody wants poor quality pictures right now...but people still get on jets to fly, and will continue to do so. Amtrak? Ward of the public. Never was a for-profit venture and never will be ( no passenger rail ever pays for itself ). Undercapitalized, it gets just enough to to hobble along. Southwest has been doing more and more mtc in-house...Don't believe me? Go solicit opinions from SW mechs. Lord knows you use your command of the web well enough in an attempt to cut everyone else apart...not limited to this airline. You've used this apples vs oranges argument before anyway with smaller airlines.

"Why? To lower unit costs to compete."

Refer to your 1st sentence. Specious.

"All I am saying is that the United mechanics agreed to outsource some of their maintenance. In regard to US Airways, what if a deal could be struck to permit A320 outsourcing and in exchange the mechanics received a no furlough clause. Could there be a procedure put in place to reduce head count due to attrition to permit the airline to lower its unit costs to help the airline survive?"

No, UAL has the right to farm out ALL of its heavy maintenence. The issue is closed, no deal here. But just for the sake of debate, let's just say we got a "no furlough clause" ( teee heee...giggle giggle ) as you refer to it: Like any other agreement, it will be cast aside to "lower our cost structure to a more competitive level"....and we'll hear the company say, through the media shills, and you as their USaviation cheerleader of how arcane and unworkable "no layoff" clauses are. You know it....and I know it. Try another angle.

"This is what ALPA did."

Yeah, and we all know how friction free the RJ/SJ issue is.

"I wish this industry was not facing the enormous LCC pressure, but it is and either we continue to restructure or we die. What's the benefit in winning the battle if we lose the war? Just ask Charlie Bryan and the Eastern Air Lines mechanics."

You've already stated this twice, and yet failed to address how the situations relate. Your EAL anology is a pathetic attempt at 'Post-Hoc' logic.

"Regards,"

Whatever...if you're into the unrequited pleasantry thing...whatever floats your boat.

 

[lester]

The IAM Mechanic and Related agreed to TWO rounds of concessions totallying around $300 Million a year, we have lost around 4,000 jobs, hmm, seems IAM M&R has more jobs lost then ALPA.

EVERY groups gave 90% bogey # in the first round of concessions and all parties reached 100% of the bogey number in the second round.

Tampa Hangar closed in the middle of the night by US Airways' Strom Troopers, over 300 people at one time told to go home you have no more jobs after we had all ready agreed to concessions. Hmm I did not see the company close any crew bases during concessions.

Maintenance Stations reduced from 33 to 18, hmm, no crew bases closed again.
Utility only three shifts at eight out of the 18 stations where staffed, third shift only at 10 of the 18 maintenance stations, hmm once again, no crew bases closed. Remember US Airways flies into 89 mainline cities.

Lets see Jerry Glass the consultant from Jerry Glass INC and Ford and Harrison (Unions call we POUNCE) does not ask for heavy maintenance scope relief.

IAM has overhauled our airplanes since 1949, Federal Courts uphold contract language and the Appealate court will too.

So what does Dave and Jerry do, they waste more time and money to appeal, meanwhile while David"Frank Lorenzo" Siegel pulls out his Nero costume for Halloween because as Dave Fiddles US Airways burns. As of tomorrow one airbus being overhauled in BFM and one stored there and 702 dies tomorrow.

Meanwhile we could have started the ball rolling and have some of the finest mechanic and related workers getting our airbus fleet back in the sky, instead Dave chooses to fight his workers instead of honoring agreements, US Airways is estimating they are losing $43,000 a day per airplane as it sits, appeals process can take 45 to 60 days. I wonder if Nero will still fiddle while US Airways Burns!


Via Facsimile
Mr. David N. Siegel
President & C.E.O.
US Airways, Inc.
2345 Crystal Drive
Arlington, VA 22227

Dear Mr. Siegel:
I have been advised by IAM counsel that US Airways has appealed the preliminary injunction order issued by U. S. District Court Judge Robert Cindrich. This is a waste of time and resources.

US Airways should be working with the IAM-represented Mechanic and Related employees to expedite the performance of heavy maintenance checks on the Airbus aircraft. This would not only be a gesture of good faith to your dedicated employees, it would also allow the Company to have a safe and reliable fleet available during the most profitable period of the year.

The fact that US Airways continues to resist and delay does nothing more than create a self-fulfilling prophecy that there is not sufficient time to perform this work in-house. US Airways employees are becoming more and more demoralized with the actions of the current management. It is time that you clearly understand that in the service industry no entity can survive or be successful without the support of its most important asset – its employees.

I urge you to stop this unnecessary and frivolous litigation and to move forward with the business of running a successful US Airways and rallying your employees, our members, to accomplish this goal.

Sincerely,
Robert Roach, Jr.
GENERAL VICE PRESIDENT

 

[blueoceans]

"My comments are a suggestion that may provide an answer to reduce the pain of this terrible restructuring to keep active mechanics employed and their paychecks, benefits, and retirement intact.

Regards,

Chip "

Chip,

I get the feeling that this company is going to have to make another trip though the courts.

 

[ClueByFour]

Pilot and F/A positions are being eliminated too through productivity changes, Pref Bid, and RJs. We are all facing the same issue, but my point is can there be a deal between the IAM-M and management to reach a deal that protects current active employees and helps the company fight the LCC's?

I think the point that I've been trying to make (and I'm certain that the IAM members have made) is that they already gave the company a chance and givebacks to help "save it."

The company, if it wanted to outsource the airbus work, should have addressed the issue while the contracts were amended in Chapter 11. Not after the fact. They had a shot to get the airbus/scope thing on the table and passed.

If they now need it to survive, it's a failure on the part of management to have not forseen the obvious (cost issues on aircraft owned for 5 years coming due for a heavy check) and/or a deliberate attempt to try to run around the CBA.

For these reasons, I believe that this particular issue (the cost of aurbus overhauls) is dead. Cost reductions should have to come from somewhere else.

 

[cavalier]

My comments are a suggestion that may provide an answer to reduce the pain of this terrible restructuring to keep active mechanics employed and their paychecks, benefits, and retirement intact.

Regards,

Chip

This is what I think: I think posters such as flyonthewall,Hawk, doitfordave, and other management officials have PMed Chip and they have made a deal. The deal being somewhat like this: Chip my man: you have such influence on these boards and SO many people read them that you can help us SCREW/BREAK/VIOLATE, just plain get rid of as MANY mechanics as possible under the guise of working with them, making a no furlough clause suggestion, basically soften them up for us. After you soften them up Chip, then we bide our time and eventually cut them in half or, preferably, cut 75% of them. And just think Chip you can be part and parcel of this, the company wins big breaking the union's back and you get a big feather in your hat and some secret bonus from us, the forever grateful management.

Think I am making this crap up! Then explain to me why every time people like myself and others make a stand for labor, management posters and their ilk such as flyonthewall and the others mentioned above PM me and tell me how stupid I am, how I MUST work with them even when it means breaking every contract signed, means tons more job loss. This is all about union busting and now they have Chip on board as well. Wake up people for the ones who don’t see it. This management will stop at nothing to break all the unions on the property and if we all don’t stand strong and united, then we are in trouble. But I am happy to report that most people can see right through the self serving individuals on these boards because they are painfully obvious. Jerry Glass is the number one person behind all of this crap and Dave is blindly following his sick advice on the in and outs of breaking unions and people in general. Not long ago Chip was so mad at the company he couldn’t even post any straight thoughts, he was beyond rage. So one must ask, what made Chip the “what’s in it for me guyâ€￾ make a 180 change? Hmmmmmmm?????

 

[AOG-N-IT]

AOG:

Pilot and F/A positions are being eliminated too through productivity changes, Pref Bid, and RJs. We are all facing the same issue, but my point is can there be a deal between the IAM-M and management to reach a deal that protects current active employees and helps the company fight the LCC's?

True, my suggestion will not help furloughees, but a dead company will not either.

Something has to be done to further lower unit costs and can we find a way to do it with the least impact on the mechanics?

My comments are a suggestion that may provide an answer to reduce the pain of this terrible restructuring to keep active mechanics employed and their paychecks, benefits, and retirement intact.

Regards,

Chip

Chip,

While I'm in agreement that a dead company does nothing for the furloughee's or the active employee's , both of our unions are duty bound to have to consider their positions in this regard too.....or as it should be !!

Cluebyfour is most correct in stating that the company had it's time in the sun to open up our IAM contract...or even abrogate it. The chosen course of action was to circumvent the CBA...which only increases the anger felt by many toward the leadership group.

I see no ideal scenario that will resolve all the companies ills...or cool the anger of the majority here. I firmly believe that labor is not the issue...but how we conduct business and handle our operations is.

I use to believe that the overtime verbage in the IAM contract was too extreme at one point...but now with the exception of planning and my department that's highly senior and short handed , no body in the IAM is recieving any overtime...nor have they since 9-11-01.

Work rules such as paying grievances for stores people to open up un-manned offices or warehouses to obtain needed company assets is foolish...but I see few other examples to alter. This brings us back to what you suggest ..and what the company really desires of us (Wage Reductions)

I do believe the rank and file has seen all of this they are willing to hear or read about. The prime reason is what's already been stated before....We gave twice already , we lost vacation time , we pay more for insurance and we took the collective bite for a war that impacted us not....yet they have not changed one actual aspect of how we do business in kind.

We get nothing but excuses from CCY....and when they aren't making excuses..they are making monitary demands of labor. We are here to work...not to be a pay as you go social club.

If the hub and spoke system is creating too much down time and it decreases productivity? Use that down time in a cross utilization manner to get some frigging planes cleaned up that are idle at the time. If labor is sitting on it's thumbs as you imply?...I say they have managers not pressing for greater utilization of thier resources. Is this labors fault too?

 

[pitguy]

You are a piece of work Chip. I think I may have preferred the time when you left the boards. I believe you would sell your mother out.

---It is all about ......me........me.......me............

 

[N628AU]

Chip,

Where do I begin with this?

It was okay for ALPA to fight the "CRJ705" because of what was negotiated in the Collective Bargaining Agreements, yet the mechanics fighting for what they agreed upon is not okay, the company must adapt or change.

This makes sense only if you can admit you are trying to have it both ways. I am no fan of either management or unions, look at my posts and you can tell that much. But there is a point where everyone has their line in the sand. Apparently with ALPA it is the RJ agreement. What if the company came and said since WN announced PHL service, we need to be more cost competitive and let Mesa fly EMB170 and EMB190 aircraft and proceeded to do so? I am sure we would see ALPA legal on that post haste with our favorite A320 captain at the head of the line!

Go back and look at your postings regarding labor costs. US labor costs as a percentage of total costs is lower than the other majors and in line with the LCCs. Could it be that there is truly mismanagement on the revenue side, and no on ein CCY has the knowledge or guts to try and fix it? I'll give you an example. A friend of mine paid $980 R/T CLT-FLL leaving on Monday and returning tomorrow. His business ended early, and although he had a Y fare ticket, it was a 3 day advance Y fare and not 24 hour, so they wanted a $50 change fee to move it up on an open flight, and would not put him standby. Maybe this is the real issue and not who is overhauling an aircraft?

As for your theoretical question about allowing the A320 outsourcing in exchange for no-furlough, what about the many people who would like to return to do this work that is contractually obligated to them? How about when the company accelerates Boeing retirements and then tries to outsource the replacements for the Boeings? Do you actually believe this company will pay mechanics to sit while all that work goes out the door? Will they replace any retired workers.

There have been many grave sacrifices given by many in this company, so get off you soapbox about ALPA only giving all cost targets to the company. Every group worked off the ALPA agreements, and I applaud ALPA for being leaders in setting the bar for everyone. Maybe you need to bumped to the right seat of that Airbus to feel some more pain. Maybe you are bitter because the pension was your breaking point and ALPA did not let you have a voice in what to give. If that is the case, take it up with them, and stop warring with your fellow workers. Everyone needs to be in the fight together against the true enemy, the competition.

 

[cavalier]

Chip doesn't have the balls to even respond to my post. This guy is so self centered believing the world revolves around himself only and aligns himself with those he believes will benefit him the most, in this case management.

 

[AOG-N-IT]

Word Up to N628AU and Cavalier for showing a leopard that he indeed has spots...the rest of us are already aware of this fact.

In solidarity and intelligent resolve ....AOG-N-IT

 

[IrsheyesDeShazo]

I would very much like to address this outsourcing of work. I have it straight from the mouth of a management level employee that no paperwork is being approved to bring parts in house for repair UNLESS they can find no vendor that wants it. That if they had their way all work would go out. Therefore eliminating all shop jobs. USAirways has been selling off all spares with the idea that if say...we take a bird strike on a leading edge slat...we will exchange it for a new one from a repair vendor...therefore sending out the old for repair and possible rebuying at a later date and removing that work from the shops. Sneaky way to get around the outsource issue. They have the impression that it costs about $6000 to cancel a flight....but they don't take in to account all the passengers that will leave and never again fly USAirways...and word of mouth turn others away.
Now...let me address the safety issues with outsourcing. When we had a AD related modification that had to be completed on the whole 737-200, 300 and 400 fleet and because the final on the Service Bulliten wasn't completed until 2 years in to a 4 year program....we had to buy spare units to get all the aircraft accomplished in time. The units we bought were repaired units from outsourced companies. We sent back half of what we bought because there were illegal repairs done, repairs that were not documented, and repairs that could not be traced. These outsources have no care for you or or families safety. When employees do the work themselves...you have pride in the fact that that is their company and aircraft, you have concern because it is their families flying on these aircraft and they want them safe.
Now another point. The FAA does not have the resources or ability to watchdog all these out side repair facilities...and they readily admit this. Much as far as safety issues goes by them....or they have been told by their bosses to back off.
There are known issues on aircraft that our government won't demand fixed. WHY?
Because our great leaders have determined that a human life is worth about $100,000.00 and it is cheaper to pay off grieving families because of a safety related crash than to fix the problem on all aircraft in the United States. How very nice that the government has placed a price on the heads of your husbands, wives and children. :angry: