Union vs Non Union My Response

[WoRkInG]

Good questions but my oppinion once again is these economic times brings trouble for any organized work force trying to bargain anything. Should I bring up NWA mechanics again? Times are even tougher now.

You might want to check out SWA recent contracts in these economic times. Keep in mind the Company agreed to the terms and conditions. You are also telling me organized workforce will go threw troubles with bargaining? Why? You guys got raises to industry standard in these troubling times. Think before you start typing. You also need to give up bringing NWA mechs in your argument because you do not know anything thing at all about what happen. You need to do your homework seriously and realize that Steenland put more money in breaking the union (for the merging of delta) then what the union was asking for in negotiations. Just say you don't want a union and resist argument on why.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

It infers that you still didn't answer the question. I'm not naive enough to think this corporation will "take care" of anyone. A union can't stop any of what you say from happening. The only thing it could do is provide bumping rights if any of the above should happen and there is still a company left. Not worth paying dues for in my opinion.

Since my words seem to be of no substance or value to you, maybe you can see thru the eyes of someone who was at NW, Danny Campbell. It seems that NWA flight attendants were able to succeed in stopping Rich:

Danny Campbell (Detroit, MI) wrote2 hours ago

...From the very first DAY a contract is signed in our industry, the preparation and strategy for the next negotiations (even if that takes place 5 - 10 years down the road) begins....

Now, take for example, my statement that Richard Anderson was DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the negotiations of the mechanics contract - and the plans laid to outsource their jobs. First, it should not be a stretch for you to believe this statement - because guess what? HE WAS OUR CEO DURING THESE NEGOTIATIONS. Richard was appointed CEO in early 2001 and presided over the strategy that resulted in an agreement being reached with the AMFA represented mechanics in mid 2001. Do you care to dispute that? Do you care to dispute that the agreement reached loosened their job protection language and eventually resulted in 1/2 of their jobs being eliminated? Or, is it your position that poor Richard had no idea what was agreed to in those negotiations WHEN HE WAS CEO and he had NO PLANS to outsource their jobs (while fighting at the bargaining table to reduce their job protections)? I mean, is that your position?

Now, let's take our own FA contract negotiations, shall we? Our last contract was signed in June 2000 - with a duration of 5 years (set to expire 5/31/2005) . Richard Anderson (again) came on as our CEO in early 2001 (when I was President of our union, mind you). In 2002 (just one year after being CEO), Richard attempted to get us to 'open' our contract for re-negotiation. We declined. He attempted again in 2003, 2004 and shortly before he left the Company to go to United Health. Now, during the notices he issued to the union of the parts of the contract he wanted to open for negotiation, he included Section 1 (Scope). Well, guess what? Scope is the section of the contract that protects our jobs from outsourcing. Now why would he want to open that section of our contract, if he didn't have the same plan to outsource our jobs (that he had just accomplished with the mechanics)? Since you seem to understand this process better than I do, perhaps you can explain what his attempts were? It was not until late 2005 when the union agreed to begin negotiations did we FINALLY see what their full strategy was. It was to outsource 75% of ALL international flights to low-cost, non-union, non-American workers....which amounts to about 40% of the entire workforce. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what the 'intents' were of Anderson, Steenland and others....or perhaps it does? Strategic decisions about what to target in negotiations are made YEARS in advance - they don't come up overnight (like your insinuation that Steenland just thought of this one day and it appeared in a proposal). Anyone who understands the process knows that isn't what happens. Likewise, the same thing happens on OUR side of the table in negotiations. Almost immediately upon a contract being put in place, we begin to target those areas we want improved upon. So, you see, the process does not involve 'radical last minute' strategies. NWA had spent years costing out their proposal and knew LONG BEFORE they came to the bargaining table how much it would costs to replace us with foreign workers in Asia, India and other locations.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5566...&topic=9940

 

[Dignity]

In 2002 (just one year after being CEO), Richard attempted to get us to 'open' our contract for re-negotiation. We declined. He attempted again in 2003, 2004 and shortly before he left the Company to go to United Health.

that was also the time period after 9-11 when the airline industry suffered one of the most incredible financial losses in aviation history..(at all airlines) furloughs..ext.

we went from serving complimentary bagged snacks in coach (as one example).. a week prior to 9-11 to having basically all inflight service eliminated except beverages domestically and then of course the devastating loss of revenue..the whole time frame was a disaster for anyone associated with the industry..

yes they did decline to do anything and to me, it was a huge mistake not to address.. especially taking into consideration what they did in the end..

since we are contract employees they would have to ask for re-negotiation.. simply for the fact we are...

contract employees.

it did not happen and then we went bankrupt and the PFAA ended up gutting our contract in the end.

to me, the hold out wasnt worth it when all was said and done..regarding the union and then the gutting of our contract, however they did manage to save our jobs from outsourcing..

(even though I thought it was a bluff to get us to accept pay cuts)

maybe.. if someone was willing to do something sooner.. it wouldnt have been that extreme.. the huge pay cuts the union put in writing with TA1 and had that imposed on our group by the court..

(maybe)

my impression of RA.. he was a fair man, at that time.

 

[Dignity]

It was not until late 2005 when the union agreed to begin negotiations did we FINALLY see what their full strategy was. It was to outsource 75% of ALL international flights to low-cost, non-union, non-American workers....which amounts to about 40% of the entire workforce.

If that is ever brought up again.

it will destroy Delta's Inflight service.

(our Pacific division is not outsourced, we have always worked together as a team)

however

it is important to keep Flight Attendant positions on outbound and inbound to the US staffed with
US citizens and those who have a legal right to work in the US on those flights.

I know this is just an opinion some may not agree with but...

Delta's tradition is greater than a CEO and attempting to change that, it will fail.

enough, we have gone through enough.

that proposal was real, it did happen to our group..but that does not necessarily mean it is going to surface at DL and if it was attempted..(which I honestly do not think it will.. at least I hope it wont, because its totally not necessary!)

three things would happen for certain..

1. if a union was not successful during the election, unionization would happen in about a month afterwards.

2. the airline's reputation going forward destroyed for good.

3. the CEO will be shown the door.

 

[Delta Technician]

Hey DAL tech,

How much say did you have when DL outsourced your work, cut your pay, closed hangars, canceled benefits during bankruptcy?

How many times did they negotiate with mtc?

Oh thats right, DL did whatever they wanted to do cause your just an employee at will with no rights.

Why is it ok for your CEO and other Executives to have contracts yet you dont want to work under one which guarantees your compensation and benefits.

Oh and by the way union dues are tax deductible

Having a "say" and actually controlling a situation are two different things.

Negotiations for NWA MTC got a lot of mechanics on the streets.

We still ended up with better pay and possibly benefits and more of Delta mechanics had jobs at that time.

Who said it is ok? Did anybody in your unions end up with as much money in the form of raises and bonuses just because they were union?

Well Mr. Math Genious, how much do you actually realize on your taxes just because you can "write off" tax dues? Better enroll in a taxes for dummies class.

 

[Delta Technician]

You might want to check out SWA recent contracts in these economic times. Keep in mind the Company agreed to the terms and conditions. You are also telling me organized workforce will go threw troubles with bargaining? Why? You guys got raises to industry standard in these troubling times. Think before you start typing. You also need to give up bringing NWA mechs in your argument because you do not know anything thing at all about what happen. You need to do your homework seriously and realize that Steenland put more money in breaking the union (for the merging of delta) then what the union was asking for in negotiations. Just say you don't want a union and resist argument on why.

You sound like a baptist minister trying to get a methadist to go catholic.

 

[Delta Technician]

Since my words seem to be of no substance or value to you, maybe you can see thru the eyes of someone who was at NW, Danny Campbell. It seems that NWA flight attendants were able to succeed in stopping Rich:

Danny Campbell (Detroit, MI) wrote2 hours ago

...From the very first DAY a contract is signed in our industry, the preparation and strategy for the next negotiations (even if that takes place 5 - 10 years down the road) begins....

Now, take for example, my statement that Richard Anderson was DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the negotiations of the mechanics contract - and the plans laid to outsource their jobs. First, it should not be a stretch for you to believe this statement - because guess what? HE WAS OUR CEO DURING THESE NEGOTIATIONS. Richard was appointed CEO in early 2001 and presided over the strategy that resulted in an agreement being reached with the AMFA represented mechanics in mid 2001. Do you care to dispute that? Do you care to dispute that the agreement reached loosened their job protection language and eventually resulted in 1/2 of their jobs being eliminated? Or, is it your position that poor Richard had no idea what was agreed to in those negotiations WHEN HE WAS CEO and he had NO PLANS to outsource their jobs (while fighting at the bargaining table to reduce their job protections)? I mean, is that your position?

Now, let's take our own FA contract negotiations, shall we? Our last contract was signed in June 2000 - with a duration of 5 years (set to expire 5/31/2005) . Richard Anderson (again) came on as our CEO in early 2001 (when I was President of our union, mind you). In 2002 (just one year after being CEO), Richard attempted to get us to 'open' our contract for re-negotiation. We declined. He attempted again in 2003, 2004 and shortly before he left the Company to go to United Health. Now, during the notices he issued to the union of the parts of the contract he wanted to open for negotiation, he included Section 1 (Scope). Well, guess what? Scope is the section of the contract that protects our jobs from outsourcing. Now why would he want to open that section of our contract, if he didn't have the same plan to outsource our jobs (that he had just accomplished with the mechanics)? Since you seem to understand this process better than I do, perhaps you can explain what his attempts were? It was not until late 2005 when the union agreed to begin negotiations did we FINALLY see what their full strategy was. It was to outsource 75% of ALL international flights to low-cost, non-union, non-American workers....which amounts to about 40% of the entire workforce. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what the 'intents' were of Anderson, Steenland and others....or perhaps it does? Strategic decisions about what to target in negotiations are made YEARS in advance - they don't come up overnight (like your insinuation that Steenland just thought of this one day and it appeared in a proposal). Anyone who understands the process knows that isn't what happens. Likewise, the same thing happens on OUR side of the table in negotiations. Almost immediately upon a contract being put in place, we begin to target those areas we want improved upon. So, you see, the process does not involve 'radical last minute' strategies. NWA had spent years costing out their proposal and knew LONG BEFORE they came to the bargaining table how much it would costs to replace us with foreign workers in Asia, India and other locations.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5566...&topic=9940

Wow! From what you just wrote you should not have been the president of anything. I don't care to sit here and type out all of my thoughts on what you wrote but I will say this. It could be that RA had the FA's best interest at heart wanting to change the scope. Why should a company want to pay a work force the same amout of money per hour to do less than any other? Does that make good business sense? Maybe he just wanted to broaden the scope to include what other work forces were doing at the same wage or maybe a little less or a little more. You obviuosly have never owned a business. Maybe your union was too stubborn to really think that one through. If you had any kind of business mind, you would know there are a lot of variables in negotiating and not just what I want. There is a thing called scales in bargaining and many factors can tip them. Unions need more than "what I want" to tip them in their direction.

 

[Delta Technician]

that was also the time period after 9-11 when the airline industry suffered one of the most incredible financial losses in aviation history..(at all airlines) furloughs..ext.

we went from serving complimentary bagged snacks in coach (as one example).. a week prior to 9-11 to having basically all inflight service eliminated except beverages domestically and then of course the devastating loss of revenue..the whole time frame was a disaster for anyone associated with the industry..

yes they did decline to do anything and to me, it was a huge mistake not to address.. especially taking into consideration what they did in the end..

since we are contract employees they would have to ask for re-negotiation.. simply for the fact we are...

contract employees.

it did not happen and then we went bankrupt and the PFAA ended up gutting our contract in the end.

to me, the hold out wasnt worth it when all was said and done..regarding the union and then the gutting of our contract, however they did manage to save our jobs from outsourcing..

(even though I thought it was a bluff to get us to accept pay cuts)

maybe.. if someone was willing to do something sooner.. it wouldnt have been that extreme.. the huge pay cuts the union put in writing with TA1 and had that imposed on our group by the court..

(maybe)

my impression of RA.. he was a fair man, at that time.

Thank you Dignity for this post. You put a lot of thought and heart into your posts. Ever think of being president of your union?

 

[UAL_TECH]

It infers that you still didn't answer the question. I'm not naive enough to think this corporation will "take care" of anyone. A union can't stop any of what you say from happening. The only thing it could do is provide bumping rights if any of the above should happen and there is still a company left. Not worth paying dues for in my opinion.

Yea, whatever...

When you ID-10-Ts are back to working 7/10's with no vacation/healthcare and your 'kids' work help you support your family, don't come asking 'me' for a hand out.

 

[Airlinelifer]

Thank you Dignity for this post. You put a lot of thought and heart into your posts. Ever think of being president of your union?

This is your new boss, a man that belongs to a special clique, one that you are not privy to join. One that makes money beyond your wildest dreams. They don't give two shits about your dopey Delta culture or open door policy. These vampires float from company to company sucking the life blood out of them. Their careers last 3 to 7 years, then they move on.

You see my friend, you are living on "Fantasy Island", an island insulated from the outside world. You'll learn that hiding your head in the sand, you leave your ass way up in the air.
Read and enjoy.

Mr. Gorman noted: "I am pleased to become a member of the Board of Directors of Aviation Sales Company as the Company is a leader in the airframe heavy maintenance market. I look forward to working with the Board of Directors and management of Aviation Sales, and particularly to working with Gil West, the Company's new Chief Operating OfficerChief Operating Officer (COO)

The officer of a firm responsible for day-to-day management, usually the president or an executive vice-president.
..... Click the link for more information., with whom I worked for several years at Northwest."

Aviation Sales Company is a leading independent provider of fully integrated aviation maintenance, repair and overhaulMaintenance, Repair and Overhaul or MRO is a multi-billion dollar industry which works on international authorization rules to deliver a safe airline operation and to assure reliability and availability of customer fleets.
..... Click the link for more information. (MR&O) services for major commercial airlines and maintenance and repair facilities. The Company currently operates four MR&O businesses: TIMCO TIMCO Triad International Maintenance Company (Oscoda, Michigan) , which, with its five locations, is one of the largest independent providers of heavy aircraft maintenance services in North America; Aerocell Structures, which specializes in the MR&O of airframe components, including flight surfaces; Aircraft Interior Design, which specializes in the refurbishment of aircraft interior components; and TIMCO Engine Center, which refurbishes JT8D engines. The Company also operates TIMCO Engineered Systems, which provides engineering services to our MR&O operations and our customers.

To these clowns, theirs NEVER a right time for pay and benefit increases, and your their type of employee.

 

[Dignity]

Their careers last 3 to 7 years, then they move on.

I guess my question would be...where and why?

the merger created the worlds largest airline, so where are they going to go and and be embraced if they destroy Delta's good name?

(BTW, I hope, I really hope they are not that stupid to screw up..the one good thing that will...ever come their way again, ever)

 

[700UW]

Having a "say" and actually controlling a situation are two different things.

Negotiations for NWA MTC got a lot of mechanics on the streets.

We still ended up with better pay and possibly benefits and more of Delta mechanics had jobs at that time.

Who said it is ok? Did anybody in your unions end up with as much money in the form of raises and bonuses just because they were union?

Well Mr. Math Genious, how much do you actually realize on your taxes just because you can "write off" tax dues? Better enroll in a taxes for dummies class.

Apparently you dont read, NW had a plan, they planned for two years prior to eliminate mtc, yes the AMTs played into their hands and NW used the RLA which favors companies to achieve their goal.

But at least they had to negotiate with AMFA, what did DL do to the AMTs during bankruptcy, how many negotiating sessions did DL hold with the AMTs in DFW and TPA when they shut the hangars down and sent the work to vendors in the US and overseas?

If you have enough deductions you get 100% credit, and I will tell you what, my union dues was the best $42 a month I ever spent. Unions arent cure alls or miracle workers but I would rather have a union and a CBA, cause DL tomorrow can say your making $10 an hour, take it or leave, cant do that to someone if you have a CBA, now can they?

And maybe you need to read the yellow book about taxes.

And at US after we took concessions in 92, we got double our money back in cash over a two year period and stock options for the dollar amount we gave back at $15 a share, sure was nice selling it at $60 a share and making a nice profit.

Also nice when we got raises and signing bonuses when we ratified new CBAs in 95 and 99, did you get anything like that from DL?

Oh wait, you didnt, cause you dont have a CBA.

At US AMTs before bankruptcy were making $30+ an hour, and all our planes were done inhouse, we had over 6,000 mechanics on the property for 300+ planes. Heck as a stock clerk I was making $22 an hour and when we ratified the CBA in 99 I got a $3.35 raise, plus two signing bonuses.

I will take a union anyday, why do you think you made what you made?

It was to keep unions off DL's property.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

I guess my question would be...where and why?

the merger created the worlds largest airline, so where are they going to go and and be embraced if they destroy Delta's good name?

(BTW, I hope, I really hope they are not that stupid to screw up..the one good thing that will...ever come their way again, ever)

Michele and Leo helped run DL into BK and Michele has had no problem finding gainful employment. Leo has enough $$$$$ from DL to last him several lifetimes. What's in a name btw? Hell, take the money, wreck DL's name, and merge with Continental and all's forgotten in a couple of years. Remember Valuejet?

 

[700UW]

Passengers dont care about DL and the name, all they care about is cheap ticket prices.

 

[Dignity]

Michele and Leo helped run DL into BK and Michele has had no problem finding gainful employment. Leo has enough $$$$$ from DL to last him several lifetimes. What's in a name btw? Hell, take the money, wreck DL's name, and merge with Continental and all's forgotten in a couple of years. Remember Valuejet?

believe me I get what you are saying, but it just doesnt make any sense, at least to me anyway.. why someone with an ounce of common sense would even think about going that route going forward?