Union vs Non Union My Response

[EricLv2Fish]

It certainely wasn't my intent to characterize Union employees as uneducated. I was trying to point out that being empowered to control your own destiny versus putting your hopes in an organization to take care of you IMO is a better option. Obtaining this empowerment is greatly enhanced by bettering yourself through either education, experience or a combination of both. If you don't like something to the point it makes you bitter, having the ability to leave and go somewhere else without creating a hardship is a great option to have. Laying back and not being proactive in bettering yourself creates a need for "big brother" to protect you from "the evil empire". Who want's to work for the "evil empire" unless you don't have any other choices, Union or Non-Union?

 

[Dignity]

It certainely wasn't my intent to characterize Union employees as uneducated.

of course not...

I was trying to point out that being empowered to control your own destiny versus putting your hopes in an organization to take care of you IMO is a better option.

and that includes putting all your "hopes" in a company, a spouse or anyone for that matter will automatically take care of you.. right?

Obtaining this empowerment is greatly enhanced by bettering yourself through either education, experience or a combination of both.

I honestly believe most people get that..

If you don't like something to the point it makes you bitter, having the ability to leave and go somewhere else without creating a hardship is a great option to have.

sort of like, maybe, if you dont like the way we do things you can just quit.. right?

(sometimes its not bitter, rather than fighting for what someone believes in)

Laying back and not being proactive in bettering yourself creates a need for "big brother" to protect you from "the evil empire". Who want's to work for the "evil empire" unless you don't have any other choices, Union or Non-Union?

laying back? does that insinuate.. being lazy?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Well, there are two types of people when it comes to this discussion: Type 1 - Those who need or want to rely on others for protection of their best interests. Type 2 - Those who rely on themselves for their own protection of their best interests. Personally I don't want to have to rely on other people to protect my interests. The freedom to leave a company to work for another is a freedom I've enjoyed for quite sometime. If you enjoy having the freedom to choose, move, or tell the boss NO, then Unions are probably just going to slow down your progress to bigger and better things. Unions serve a purpose to protect those not capable of, or not wanting to protect their own best interest.

Eric,
In order to align your opinion within the context of an AIRLINE message board, why don't you tell us exactly what type of work/industry you are involved in? It certainly doesn't sound like the airline industry where workers cannot freely "leave a company to work for another" without losing many years of built-up seniority. You see, there is something in the airline industry that is paramount---it is called your seniority number. It rules everything. It is not universal--it only applies to that ONE airline where the employee works. If you have 15-20 years at an airline and you find your best interests are no longer being upheld, then if you were to leave and go to another airline, you would have to start all over again at the bottom...at the bottom in pay as well. Talk about a pay cut! People have families to feed, older parents to look after, etc..
Also, that is running away. There is no perfect company. I think it is best to do all you can in cooperation with one's management to ensure that you have a safe, reliable, fair workplace in which to thrive. If that's with some type of employee feedback- type groups, fine. If it's by maintaining tenacious communication with ones manager, fine. AND...if it's by voting for a union, that's one's choice too.
PS: I do agree with getting as much education as one can but that takes money and time. Something that seems to be in short supply these days.

 

[tech2101]

Eric,
In order to align your opinion within the context of an AIRLINE message board, why don't you tell us exactly what type of work/industry you are involved in? It certainly doesn't sound like the airline industry where workers cannot freely "leave a company to work for another" without losing many years of built-up seniority. You see, there is something in the airline industry that is paramount---it is called your seniority number. It rules everything. It is not universal--it only applies to that ONE airline where the employee works. If you have 15-20 years at an airline and you find your best interests are no longer being upheld, then if you were to leave and go to another airline, you would have to start all over again at the bottom...at the bottom in pay as well. Talk about a pay cut! People have families to feed, older parents to look after, etc..
Also, that is running away. There is no perfect company. I think it is best to do all you can in cooperation with one's management to ensure that you have a safe, reliable, fair workplace in which to thrive. If that's with some type of employee feedback- type groups, fine. If it's by maintaining tenacious communication with ones manager, fine. AND...if it's by voting for a union, that's one's choice too.
PS: I do agree with getting as much education as one can but that takes money and time. Something that seems to be in short supply these days.

Thank you for stating what I am quite sure many of are thinking.

 

[WoRkInG]

Eric,
In order to align your opinion within the context of an AIRLINE message board, why don't you tell us exactly what type of work/industry you are involved in? It certainly doesn't sound like the airline industry where workers cannot freely "leave a company to work for another" without losing many years of built-up seniority. You see, there is something in the airline industry that is paramount---it is called your seniority number. It rules everything. It is not universal--it only applies to that ONE airline where the employee works. If you have 15-20 years at an airline and you find your best interests are no longer being upheld, then if you were to leave and go to another airline, you would have to start all over again at the bottom...at the bottom in pay as well. Talk about a pay cut! People have families to feed, older parents to look after, etc..
Also, that is running away. There is no perfect company. I think it is best to do all you can in cooperation with one's management to ensure that you have a safe, reliable, fair workplace in which to thrive. If that's with some type of employee feedback- type groups, fine. If it's by maintaining tenacious communication with ones manager, fine. AND...if it's by voting for a union, that's one's choice too.
PS: I do agree with getting as much education as one can but that takes money and time. Something that seems to be in short supply these days.

AMEN

 

[john john]

Eric,
In order to align your opinion within the context of an AIRLINE message board, why don't you tell us exactly what type of work/industry you are involved in?

Retired government employee

 

[goodfellow]

Being a union member means that when US announces cuts and closings tomorrow I will be able to exercise my seniority and not have to kiss up to management to keep my job. I have a voice to speak for me in uncertain times. After US giving the same clowns a raise for bad management and raping all groups at US, all I can say is WAKE UP PEOPLE and learn from mistakes from others! You have a choice? Choose wisely.

 

[DAL Mech]

Being a union member means that when US announces cuts and closings tomorrow I will be able to exercise my seniority and not have to kiss up to management to keep my job. I have a voice to speak for me in uncertain times. After US giving the same clowns a raise for bad management and raping all groups at US, all I can say is WAKE UP PEOPLE and learn from mistakes from others! You have a choice? Choose wisely.

We had that option, no kissing up required.

 

[700UW]

You had only options that the company told you that you could do, not a CBA where you can do what you want as long as the seniority is followed and it cant change at a whims notice.

So when they closed DFW Heavy MTC, could you go anywhere DL's system where your seniority let you or did could you only go to a certain place where DL said so?

 

[tech2101]

We had that option, no kissing up required.

You mean options like the ones you describe here:

The communication about our options that were available was seriously lacking. Many took the RIF and didnt really have to, they could have slid into other positions. Taking a lower level position, it was explained the pay cut would be immediate, that wasn't the case. There were seniority issues with the call back as well. Some of it had to do with the call back preference sheet that we all had to fill out. Machinists didn't take any layoffs, so there were some low time guys there. I believe high cost cities kept lower time guys, operationally there wouldn't be much choice.

A bunch of little stuff that could have been done better. I believe it was unfamiliar ground for the management.

There is only a few facts in life. You will die, there will be good times and bad times, and you cant please everyone. Why cant some people just accept that a union isnt for everyone?

I know those pesky little details are inconsequential to most (unless it is your job it is costing).

 

[EricLv2Fish]

Eric,
In order to align your opinion within the context of an AIRLINE message board, why don't you tell us exactly what type of work/industry you are involved in? It certainly doesn't sound like the airline industry where workers cannot freely "leave a company to work for another" without losing many years of built-up seniority.

I did retire from the US Air Force in 2001. I worked for AWA, now US Airways from 2001 to 2006 as a tech-writer. I left US Airways for many reasons, but not because I didn't love the job. The job and people were terrific. I saw an opportunity to better myself and family and took it. I'm glad I did, because my group hasn't seen a raised since I left, nor have they received any bonuses they were accustomed to receiving. The do have to pay union dues now though since merging with US Airways. I think any experienced airline employee knows that the airline business is extremely fickle and it's a very risky proposition to bank on having a life long career with the same airline and build seniority in a unionized system. Education is the key to self reliance and will give you more options. Yes, I know it's hard to go to school while working 12 hour shifts, being deployed, raising children, etc, etc, but it can be done. It's in our American blood to not settle for what people will give you, but to go and get it. If you put in the effort it can be done.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I did retire from the US Air Force in 2001. I worked for AWA, now US Airways from 2001 to 2006 as a tech-writer. I left US Airways for many reasons, but not because I didn't love the job. The job and people were terrific. I saw an opportunity to better myself and family and took it. I'm glad I did, because my group hasn't seen a raised since I left, nor have they received any bonuses they were accustomed to receiving. The do have to pay union dues now though since merging with US Airways. I think any experienced airline employee knows that the airline business is extremely fickle and it's a very risky proposition to bank on having a life long career with the same airline and build seniority in a unionized system. Education is the key to self reliance and will give you more options. Yes, I know it's hard to go to school while working 12 hour shifts, being deployed, raising children, etc, etc, but it can be done. It's in our American blood to not settle for what people will give you, but to go and get it. If you put in the effort it can be done.

I understand your position a little better now. When you originally posted that if one isn't happy, they can leave one company in favor of another, it sounds like what you meant is.. leave and start a new career. Perhaps the new career may be based on one's airline experience but not leave to go from one airline to another. I'm glad you sought out other opportunities and it is working for you.
As far as "building seniority in a unionized system"...even at Delta, a mostly non-union company, seniority is built the very same way as a unionized company. Historically, union membership has little to nothing to do with how one accrues basic seniority at a particular airline.
Lastly, it seems by being a retiree from the USAir Force (and your service is greatly appreciated), you were afforded many opportunities (early retirement, medical benefits, college reimbursement) that many in the private sector simply are not afforded. I greatly believe in these benefits for our military personnel, so don't get me wrong. However, we all are in different places in our lives for a variety of reasons even those who have the drive and work ethic. I'm just empathetic, I guess, towards those who didn't quite have the same opportunities or were not in a place in their lives to take advantage of them at the particular time they were available or maybe didn't even have the knowledge of them. I guess that's the difference.

 

[700UW]

Eric, last year M&R got a raise and a new CBA, better go check your info.

 

[Don Smith]

Again...nothing specific. I'm done with this..I was there, I know how things were. If things were as bad as you say nwa would have prosecuted but they didn't. Because there were no deplorable conditions. Your oil carts still worked, your computers still worked and you still had a picnic bench to sit on. I apologize to the other posters. It seems when you reply to Vimes you uncork the blowhole and he goes on and on and on and on...
Can't "rehash the ugly specifics" because there were none. Regardless how you "define" yourself now, you can't make justification for being a SCAB. You'll always be one. That "contractor" sugarcoating does not impress anyone.

"Don Smith" I did not say I came to NWA after September. I stated I did not become a NWA employee until after September, prior to that I was a contractor a professional contractor. I was one of the first through the gate after your pathetic "strike" was called. I know exactly what condition things were left in and it was deplorable. Some feel, to NWA credit, they apparently chose not to seek retribution via law enforcement or the FAA or any other legal channels. I think they should have done everything in their power to throw the book at everyone who behaved in such a childish juvenile tantrum throwing manner. Everyone who was there knows what happened if you dont you were not there. Rehashing the ugly specifics publicaly, for those who were privileged to not witness it first hand, would not do NWA/DELTA any good at this point.

 

[EricLv2Fish]

Eric, last year M&R got a raise and a new CBA, better go check your info.

I know for a fact 700 that the West tech-writers haven't had a raise since 2006...unless my friends are holding back information which I doubt is the case. West tech-writers were paid more than the East because of the consessions the East had to take prior to the merger. So, I guess we may be both right. Anyhow, nice to hear from you again and hope all is well with you and your family.


Eric