U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 8/3 - 8/10

[Ralph]

New Week. New Thread. Stay on topic, please.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Eastisleast
Here's a question for all you USAPA members:

When Parker says that all you will be getting with a new contract is parity plus a "little more", well i'm in the little more crowd and it makes me sick. How does it make you feel the AWA pilots are having to pay for a group that is trying to screw us from all sides. Why would we want to join a union that is trying to negate a binding award from a federal mediator. Is it ok with you guys that claim usapa is for all US pilots when the west has to pay for YOUR raise. I don't wanna hear the join and change things BS either .It's about time you guys got real and take out the DOH thing your not going to get anyway so everybody can get inboard and change things around here. We followed all the rules jumped through all the hoops and when you guys didn't like the outcome you took your ball and went home. USAPA is not for all US pilots at this time, I sure hope that it will be someday.

What questions? Usually a question ends with a "Question mark". Will try to pick out what I think you mean.

1. How does it make you feel the AWA pilots are having to pay for a group that is trying to screw us from all sides
2. Why would we want to join a union that is trying to negate a binding award from a federal mediator.
3. Is it ok with you guys that claim usapa is for all US pilots when the west has to pay for YOUR raise.

1. We're not trying to "screw" you. We just have a difference of opinion on how the seniority list should be integrated. Personally I don't feel anything. Not good, not bad. Your terminology used is a matter of definition from your perspective. Mine is from another. Who's right, wrong?
2. The award would only work if it was in a joint contract. It didn't make it. The next contract will contain a seniority list that complies with the C&BL's of the new union. Which was lawfully voted in and certified by the NMB.
3. Your not paying for anything. With unequal pay for the same craft and class, you could also look at it from my point of view, I'm paying for you to keep your wages instead of coming down to my level. I don't blame you for looking at it from that perspective, but make no mistake, we will be paid the same for the craft and class when a new joint contract is finally voted in.

 

[Megasnoop]

1. How does it make you feel the AWA pilots are having to pay for a group that is trying to screw us from all sides
2. Why would we want to join a union that is trying to negate a binding award from a federal mediator.
3. Is it ok with you guys that claim usapa is for all US pilots when the west has to pay for YOUR raise

Dear Eastisleast, I think AAA73pilot's got it right.

What questions? Usually a question ends with a "Question mark". Will try to pick out what I think you mean.
1. We're not trying to "screw" you. We just have a difference of opinion on how the seniority list should be integrated. Personally I don't feel anything. Not good, not bad. Your terminology used is a matter of definition from your perspective. Mine is from another. Who's right, wrong?
2. The award would only work if it was in a joint contract. It didn't make it. The next contract will contain a seniority list that complies with the C&BL's of the new union. Which was lawfully voted in and certified by the NMB.
3. Your not paying for anything. With unequal pay for the same craft and class, you could also look at it from my point of view, I'm paying for you to keep your wages instead of coming down to my level. I don't blame you for looking at it from that perspective, but make no mistake, we will be paid the same for the craft and class when a new joint contract is finally voted in.

The Westies are living in a time warp since May 3, 2007, when NIC came out. And they're still chasing the wrong "enemies." ALPA sat on the list for over six months. They had the authority, by the ALPA CBLs, to impose the list by making it part of a cram-down contract. They didn't, they just took a powder on you guys trying to save ALPA on the property. Your own attorney said the list was negotiable, but your MEC wouldn't compromise. We didn't "screw you." You guys screwed yourselves and ALPA screwed you. Nicolau is a Federal Arbitrator, not mediator. His ruling was law on the TWO PARTIES involved, East and West. It was not binding on the company, nor a successor union. ALPA's duty was to use all means available to get the company to accept the list. They didn't do bupkiss for you guys. You just don't get it how ALPA screwed you to the wall, all in a failed efort to hold on to our combined dues. Whn you do the DFR thing, maybe look into who really screwed you. Hint: ALPA. It's hard to DFR USAPPA. We didn't exist as the CBA until 3 months ago. We had nothing to do with arbitrating the list or with not following ALPA's duties under the CBLs to get the list implemented.

As far as a pay raise is concerned. I think Parker summed it up. We're going to get parity (plus maybe a little more). As far as USAPA being for all the pilots, since your AWAPPA leaders tell your pilots not to participate, under penalty of being labeled Judases, how is USAPA supposed to know how to represent your 34%? If you don't want to be part of it, you're not going to have any input at all. Snoop

 

[N924PS]

... but make no mistake, we will be paid the same for the craft and class when a new joint contract is finally voted in.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

When Cleary attempted to "make Doug Parker blink" on parity, Parker reiterated no parity until a joint contract is in place. $122 Million just to bring the East to current West rates with no raise.

Let's see, on track to lose a BILLION dollars this year, and no known merger or acquisition on the horizon. Even with the lip service Mr. Parker gives to getting a joint contract quickly, I don't believe that is the corporate intent. Look forward to having LOA 93 around until it is amendable and beyond if the industry is still in crisis mode.

Regarding NYCBusdriver's comment about the "Boy Scout" Captain, I know that gentleman. He's no ***kisser as you suggest, but is a man of principle and integrity (there goes that word again) who is known for telling it the way he sees it. Whether he's right or wrong remains to be seen, but there is no question where he stands on the issues.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Don't hold your breath on that one.

When Cleary attempted to "make Doug Parker blink" on parity, Parker reiterated no parity until a joint contract is in place. $122 Million just to bring the East to current West rates with no raise.

Not holding my breath or anything. Just letting things follow their course.

What did I say that you quoted? Yep, a joint contract. I don't expect one anytime soon either, but each day that goes by Parker will still be known as a manager who couldn't finish the deal.

Let's see, on track to lose a BILLION dollars this year, and no known merger or acquisition on the horizon. Even with the lip service Mr. Parker gives to getting a joint contract quickly, I don't believe that is the corporate intent. Look forward to having LOA 93 around until it is amendable and beyond if the industry is still in crisis mode.

Your right, you and I will never know about a pending merger until one is publicly announced. But really, who is going to talk with Parker until he can prove himself as a successful M&A type? He still has to get regulatory approval. That would be a real trick at our current state. I can live on LOA93 for as long as it takes. Would I like something better? Yep, who wouldn't? I am also facing reality. Which is what USAPA is trying to correct.

 

[aquagreen73s]

NOTICE
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LAWSUIT AGAINST USAPA



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THE GROUP FORMED BY THE FORMER AMERICA WEST PILOTS KNOWN AS LEONIDAS LLC IS ON THE CUSP OF COMMENCING LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE US AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION.



AN INFORMATIONAL MEETING IS SCHEDULED FOR AUGUST 5TH, FROM 1:00 PM TO 5:00 PM. THE MEETING WILL BE HELD AT THE CROWN PLAZA HOTEL, LOCATED AT 4300 EAST WASHINGTON STREET IN PHOENIX.



TO ARRANGE FOR HOTEL SHUTTLE TO AND FROM THE PHOENIX SKY HARBOR AIRPORT, PLEASE CONTACT THE HOTEL AT (602) 273-7778.



IT IS IMPERITIVE THAT ALL AMERICA WEST PILOTS ATTEND. SPEAKERS WILL BE ATTORNEYS MARTY HARPER, ANDY JACOB, AND KELLY FLOOD OF THE LAW FIRM SHUGHART, THOMPSON AND KILROY, P.C.



THE MEETING WILL BE TO DISCUSS THE BASIS FOR LITIGATION DESIGNED TO STOP THE THREATS AGAINST OUR CAREERS.



PLEASE BRING ANY AND ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE MEETING.

 

[luvthe9]

NOTICE
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PLEASE BRING ANY AND ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE MEETING.

Don't forget your checkbooks!!!!!

 

[exB717Flyer]

Don't forget your checkbooks!!!!!

No need, there's a PayPal link. Justice doesn't come for free.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Why don't you do the math on that one and get back to us as to percentile likelihood.

Nice strawman argument - the odds (or "percentile likelihood") has no bearing after the fact. It becomes an either/or question. Either something happened or it didn't, and any "percentile likelihood" of it happening is meaningless. This is true for anything from having the winning ticket for a given PowerBall drawing, to being struck by lightening, to getting a job as a pilot at a major airline, to flying jets over a war zone.

Nice try, though.

Jim

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Nice strawman argument - the odds (or "percentile likelihood") has no bearing after the fact. It becomes an either/or question. Either something happened or it didn't, and any "percentile likelihood" of it happening is meaningless. This is true for anything from having the winning ticket for a given PowerBall drawing, to being struck by lightening, to getting a job as a pilot at a major airline, to flying jets over a war zone.

Nice try, though.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks - I've always respected your posts as coming from someone who "gets it."

I personaly know a couple other folks just like east: die hard antagonists. Here's how they work:

Let's say I remain mum on providing further information. East's reaction? I get accused of making this stuff all up and being a liar. "How can you live with yourself?"

Now lets say I start chirping like a bird on my military service. The reaction? I get raked over the coals for being pompous and arrogant.

In either case, east siezes on my posts and does his best to stretch the personal attack to its limits before a moderator has to step in. His insecurity and ego just cannot accept the fact that someone on the west might have some credibility. People like east are an essential part of the equation of life, though. Their approach to things occasionally precipitates good results. But they also cause a lot of frustration and, occasionally, hurt along the way. I, for one, choose to give these types of people a wide berth.

So, I'll leave this one right here. I have lived and re-lived my experiences enough.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Nice strawman argument - the odds (or "percentile likelihood") has no bearing after the fact. It becomes an either/or question. Either something happened or it didn't, and any "percentile likelihood" of it happening is meaningless. This is true for anything from having the winning ticket for a given PowerBall drawing, to being struck by lightening, to getting a job as a pilot at a major airline, to flying jets over a war zone.

Nice try, though.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks - I've always respected your posts as coming from someone who "gets it."

I personaly know a couple other folks just like east: die hard antagonists. Here's how they work:

Let's say I remain mum on providing further information. East's reaction? I get accused of making this stuff all up and being a liar. "How can you live with yourself?"

Now lets say I start chirping like a bird on my military service. The reaction? I get raked over the coals for being pompous and arrogant.

In either case, east siezes on my posts and does his best to stretch the personal attack to its limits before a moderator has to step in. His insecurity and ego just cannot accept the fact that someone on the west might have some credibility. People like east are an essential part of the equation of life, though. Their approach to things occasionally precipitates good results. But they also cause a lot of frustration and, occasionally, hurt along the way. I, for one, choose to give these types of people a wide berth.

So, I'll leave this one right here. I have lived and re-lived my experiences enough.

 

[dariencc]

Now lets say I start chirping like a bird on my military service. The reaction? I get raked over the coals for being pompous and arrogant.

What? You're the one that brought up your military service in the first place. You were challenged on the suspect claims, yet answered them with evasive bs.

When challenged about Kitty Hawk, your answer was that you never said you served on only one carrier. So which one were you stationed on when you flew combat missions?

 

[Pi brat]

NYC busdriver wrote:

"Well, I guess it's all in perspective. I certainly would not characterize the exchange as Cleary getting his rear handed to him by Parker. I think Parker did well in holding his ground, though. And Parker has been consistent with his message about parity.

The other captain had some good points, as most Boy Scouts do. I was waiting to hear the "round of applause from the audience" though. It sounded to me like maybe 10% of the pilots in that room gave somewhat of a very halting clap or three. I don't think Cleary presented himself as well as he should have; the other captain was a kiss-*** embarrassment."



I guess its all perspective; so let me give you mine. Just so you know where I stand, I donated $400 to USAPA to get it started but in the end I voted for ALPA because of concerns about who might be appointed to run USAPA and the fact that I could never get a straight answer from them about the TA agreement and what might happen when they took over. My worst fears were wrong; I joined right off the bat, complete with dues check off. Until the ad in the USA Today I had no major complaints.

I think both USAPA and the company handled this issue poorly. USAPA needed to do something, but I think a few strong-minded people lead the rest down the wrong road. I know I am in the minority there.

But one thing I do know is that you are flat out wrong about the captain being a kiss-###. I have flown with him many times and he kisses no ones rear. Although I don't agree with him on some issues, he is a model of captain's authority, one that many more of our captains should be like. I would put my family on his airplane anytime, anywhere.

 

[dariencc]

Regarding NYCBusdriver's comment about the "Boy Scout" Captain, I know that gentleman. He's no ***kisser as you suggest, but is a man of principle and integrity (there goes that word again) who is known for telling it the way he sees it. Whether he's right or wrong remains to be seen, but there is no question where he stands on the issues.

I know him, too. He is a poseur, the kind of typical pilot/expert who thinks he understands business because he reads the journal 2 days a week. His attack on Cleary contained no specific information. It was just a lot of whining about Mike having had a "vendetta" against the company for many years. The boot licking "my money is on Doug Parker" comment was like watching some high school student counsel kid sucking up to the principal. Even Parker had to be embarrassed by it.

It was correctly pointed out that he got a light smattering of applause from about ten people. Contrast that with the applause for Cleary, Randy Mowrey, and Mike Turpin. Not even close.

 

[ussnark]

Now lets say I start chirping like a bird on my military service. The reaction? I get raked over the coals for being pompous and arrogant.

Example, please.

The only one "raked over the coals" I've seen, for that reason, has been USeast and not you, by any stretch. You, perhaps, are projecting your fears on others?