enough already
Veteran
- Jan 8, 2003
- 659
- 249
TWU.....Transparency Now on Equity Distribution!
- Thread starter HMK
- Start date
Nice info but does not answer the initial question. HMK made it simple to answer from anyone who was on the equity committee. Local 591 president was asked and deflected it to the international. Why so secretive? Something to hide maybe? Damage control maybe?
NYer
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2010
- 4,167
- 905
HMK said:
With the recent Local elections and the changes in the TWU, there are very few people left that took part in the Equity Distribution. I would venture to guess that those that are left do not want to touch this subject with a 50 foot pole. The entity that made the calculation was not the Equity Committee itself, but rather the Labor Bureau. I don't think those that are left at the TWU have any idea as to how this whole process works and if they do know...they will not stick their necks out to explain. It is much easier to just point fingers and blame others.
NYer
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2010
- 4,167
- 905
1AA said:
No one wants to put themselves in the middle. It is much easier to blame others when things go wrong rather than explain the realities of what's happening. Isn't it odd that after all those that wanted change at the International got it....there has been NO information forthcoming. At least there use to be explanations, most of which no one like and often ridiculed and second guessed....but there was something.
Keep in mind that The Labor Bureau" is not a government organization, its a private consulting firm hired by the International that came up with the formula. They hired the Labor Bureau because we did such a good job at discrediting that fraud Donnelly who screwed us in 2003 and all through negotiations.
We have to find out from The Labor Bureau, otherwise known as Tom Roth, exactly how the numbers were determined and what the TWU got out of the 72%. We have to find out what the unsecured creditors got out of the total shares that went to AA. Once again I think we will find that the language was put together to get the members to believe they would be getting something they weren't to help sell a bad deal. We were led to believe that we would get 4.8% of the company for what we were giving up, we weren't. Then we were led to believe that we were getting 4.8% of the 72% which I think we will discover we aren't. With each revelation we will find we are getting less and less.
The language we have says we will get 4.8% of the shares issued to "unsecured creditors", but was 100% of the shares from the AA side issued to unsecured creditors? No, even shareholders, the owners were issued stock and who knows who else. We know the total number of shares issued to AA but we don't know the total number of shares issued to unsecured creditors.
Like I said the spin masters who sold this deal did so by letting it be said that we were getting 4.8% of the new company in exchange for our concessions which put us at the bottom of the industry for six more years, then with the US merger they said we would only getting 4.8% of the AA part, I think the next thing we will be told is we will only be getting 4.8% of the shares issued to "unsecured creditors" and not 4.8% of the 72%, which will be even less.
We know that the owners of USAIR are getting 28% of the new company. Unsecured creditors over there aren't getting anything, as US was not in BK at the time of the merger, so they lost nothing, but AA wasn't really bankrupt either, this was nothing more than a scam to screw over the workers, so the owners of the old AA are getting stock in the new company, and those shares will come out of that 72%. So lets say that the 72% comes out to 750 million shares and 250 million shares go to shareholders and management for doing such a good job making sure that all the other creditors got 100% of what they lost in BK in shares of the new AA and screwed us over by not only avoiding giving us compensation in line with the rest of the industry but only giving us the additional amount we lost for just one year while imposing additional concessions (losses for us) for six years. Well that knocks the pool of shares that we get down to 4.8% of 500 million shares. So instead to the TWU getting 36 Million shares (4.8% of 750 million) we would get just 24 million shares. Instead us getting 4.8% of the company we would be getting roughly 2% of the entire company and a little over 3% of the AA share, not 4.8% as it was sold.
This is another reason why we should have rejected this deal. The pilots rejected their deal under threat of abrogation and got a better deal by voting no anyway, not a worse deal like Little, Videtich and their hired hands were saying. Some will claim that the numbers indicate the pilots didn't gain much, but remember the numbers are the company's numbers , they have a lot a leeway in making them say whatever they want them to say. AA could have fudged the numbers and given us a better deal just as they did with the pilots, example, if they had given us back the two half days and increased our bank back to 12 days they could have given us something and wrote it off as a $7 million savings. That 7 million could have been put towards the extra week of vacation they took away, or a few Holidays back or at least double time for the Five we get half pay for. We "proved" that by using the company's own figures and assumptions that showed that when we lost the two half sick days of pay and seven days from the bank per year that sick time used, both paid and unpaid (both of which is assumed must be covered with OT) spiked up and remained at much higher levels than before the penalty was introduced, it was costing the company $7million a year to screw us because instead of decreasing costs associated with sick calls people called in sick longer and used more days when they did call in. The penalty did not save the company money, it cost them more. In other words we could have gotten back our sick time, done away with the penalty and an additional $7 million in Holidays back while on paper they still could claim they reached their number.
I suspect that the company was reluctant to agree to what appears to be a win-win deal as far as sick time because they know that some day, if they want to recruit and retain talent, they will need to offer a retiree medical plan like CAL and SWA have, where accumulated sick time pays for retiree medical, but by forcing us to burn our sick time (average usage is 5.1 days per year-so on average no mechanic accumulates sick time) they can ensure that most of us will have to stay till Medicare kicks in, thus easing the shortage of mechanics that all carriers will be facing in the coming years. What I cant understand is why Videtich helped kill it. Then again, maybe I can. Maybe they were holding on to it just in case we did reject the deal but we made it so they didn't need it by accepting the worst deal in the industry.
We have to find out from The Labor Bureau, otherwise known as Tom Roth, exactly how the numbers were determined and what the TWU got out of the 72%. We have to find out what the unsecured creditors got out of the total shares that went to AA. Once again I think we will find that the language was put together to get the members to believe they would be getting something they weren't to help sell a bad deal. We were led to believe that we would get 4.8% of the company for what we were giving up, we weren't. Then we were led to believe that we were getting 4.8% of the 72% which I think we will discover we aren't. With each revelation we will find we are getting less and less.
The language we have says we will get 4.8% of the shares issued to "unsecured creditors", but was 100% of the shares from the AA side issued to unsecured creditors? No, even shareholders, the owners were issued stock and who knows who else. We know the total number of shares issued to AA but we don't know the total number of shares issued to unsecured creditors.
Like I said the spin masters who sold this deal did so by letting it be said that we were getting 4.8% of the new company in exchange for our concessions which put us at the bottom of the industry for six more years, then with the US merger they said we would only getting 4.8% of the AA part, I think the next thing we will be told is we will only be getting 4.8% of the shares issued to "unsecured creditors" and not 4.8% of the 72%, which will be even less.
We know that the owners of USAIR are getting 28% of the new company. Unsecured creditors over there aren't getting anything, as US was not in BK at the time of the merger, so they lost nothing, but AA wasn't really bankrupt either, this was nothing more than a scam to screw over the workers, so the owners of the old AA are getting stock in the new company, and those shares will come out of that 72%. So lets say that the 72% comes out to 750 million shares and 250 million shares go to shareholders and management for doing such a good job making sure that all the other creditors got 100% of what they lost in BK in shares of the new AA and screwed us over by not only avoiding giving us compensation in line with the rest of the industry but only giving us the additional amount we lost for just one year while imposing additional concessions (losses for us) for six years. Well that knocks the pool of shares that we get down to 4.8% of 500 million shares. So instead to the TWU getting 36 Million shares (4.8% of 750 million) we would get just 24 million shares. Instead us getting 4.8% of the company we would be getting roughly 2% of the entire company and a little over 3% of the AA share, not 4.8% as it was sold.
This is another reason why we should have rejected this deal. The pilots rejected their deal under threat of abrogation and got a better deal by voting no anyway, not a worse deal like Little, Videtich and their hired hands were saying. Some will claim that the numbers indicate the pilots didn't gain much, but remember the numbers are the company's numbers , they have a lot a leeway in making them say whatever they want them to say. AA could have fudged the numbers and given us a better deal just as they did with the pilots, example, if they had given us back the two half days and increased our bank back to 12 days they could have given us something and wrote it off as a $7 million savings. That 7 million could have been put towards the extra week of vacation they took away, or a few Holidays back or at least double time for the Five we get half pay for. We "proved" that by using the company's own figures and assumptions that showed that when we lost the two half sick days of pay and seven days from the bank per year that sick time used, both paid and unpaid (both of which is assumed must be covered with OT) spiked up and remained at much higher levels than before the penalty was introduced, it was costing the company $7million a year to screw us because instead of decreasing costs associated with sick calls people called in sick longer and used more days when they did call in. The penalty did not save the company money, it cost them more. In other words we could have gotten back our sick time, done away with the penalty and an additional $7 million in Holidays back while on paper they still could claim they reached their number.
I suspect that the company was reluctant to agree to what appears to be a win-win deal as far as sick time because they know that some day, if they want to recruit and retain talent, they will need to offer a retiree medical plan like CAL and SWA have, where accumulated sick time pays for retiree medical, but by forcing us to burn our sick time (average usage is 5.1 days per year-so on average no mechanic accumulates sick time) they can ensure that most of us will have to stay till Medicare kicks in, thus easing the shortage of mechanics that all carriers will be facing in the coming years. What I cant understand is why Videtich helped kill it. Then again, maybe I can. Maybe they were holding on to it just in case we did reject the deal but we made it so they didn't need it by accepting the worst deal in the industry.
We wont know until we find out how much of the 72% went to the unsecured creditors.
But here is another kicker. Other creditors were given 100% of what they lost prior to the BK, we were only awarded 100% of what we will lose in one year going forward in a six year BK brokered deal. In reality we are only getting 17% of what we lost in BK while everyone else is getting 100% of what they lost. Unlike us I doubt that all those creditors agreed to sell their product to AA at wAAY below market rates for six years going forward like mechanics were pressured into by the courts, the International and the lawyers.
All creditors face abrogation in BK, only Airline labor can be forced to provide their product under terms imposed by the company with the backing of the court. This must be addressed, it will never be addressed if we keep using it as an excuse to let them screw us over and accept deals because they threaten us with worse ones if we don't, we must be willing to violate the edicts of these corrupt Judges as well in order to get Justice.
Simple, vote NO, if they impose then go on strike and tell the Judge to stick his injunction back where it came from. If they fine us we don't pay, then as they haul us off to Jail let them explain to the American people how they came up with a law that only applies to airline workers that allows companies who have five billion in cash and engaged in the largest spending spree ever on new aircraft to maintain that spending spree and force their workers to pay for it through concessions imposed with the aid of the United States Judicial System. Let them show the world how in the US Themis has dropped those scales to the floor and kicked them aside, but kept her sword.
But here is another kicker. Other creditors were given 100% of what they lost prior to the BK, we were only awarded 100% of what we will lose in one year going forward in a six year BK brokered deal. In reality we are only getting 17% of what we lost in BK while everyone else is getting 100% of what they lost. Unlike us I doubt that all those creditors agreed to sell their product to AA at wAAY below market rates for six years going forward like mechanics were pressured into by the courts, the International and the lawyers.
All creditors face abrogation in BK, only Airline labor can be forced to provide their product under terms imposed by the company with the backing of the court. This must be addressed, it will never be addressed if we keep using it as an excuse to let them screw us over and accept deals because they threaten us with worse ones if we don't, we must be willing to violate the edicts of these corrupt Judges as well in order to get Justice.
Simple, vote NO, if they impose then go on strike and tell the Judge to stick his injunction back where it came from. If they fine us we don't pay, then as they haul us off to Jail let them explain to the American people how they came up with a law that only applies to airline workers that allows companies who have five billion in cash and engaged in the largest spending spree ever on new aircraft to maintain that spending spree and force their workers to pay for it through concessions imposed with the aid of the United States Judicial System. Let them show the world how in the US Themis has dropped those scales to the floor and kicked them aside, but kept her sword.
Well Conehead, you were a Yes voter right? So you must have completely understood what this deal included, care to explain what you voted Yes on?
It's my understanding that Tom Roth came up with the formulas etc. The Committee simply gave input on who should be included in the award, not the formula. IIRC the Equity Committee was formed after ratification of the deal. So like a typical Little/Videtich lapdog you are trying to spin the blame to a Committee that I'm sure you know carries zero authority per the TWU Constitution and was formed after the deal was ratified. This was Little/Videtich's deal, not the Committees.
It's my understanding that Tom Roth came up with the formulas etc. The Committee simply gave input on who should be included in the award, not the formula. IIRC the Equity Committee was formed after ratification of the deal. So like a typical Little/Videtich lapdog you are trying to spin the blame to a Committee that I'm sure you know carries zero authority per the TWU Constitution and was formed after the deal was ratified. This was Little/Videtich's deal, not the Committees.
So it is your position that we will end up with 4.8% of the 72%?NYer said:
Are you that naive not to realize that the reason why there is enough value for everyone else to get 100% is because they will be tasking that money from you for the next six years? That AA was never really bankrupt and this whole thing was a fraud?
AMFAinMIAMI
Veteran
Bob Owens said:
Bob
This whole deal still is on the TWU, who's to blame makes no difference.
Is this going to be the last of the screwing by the TWU on its members? NO
It should show the membership that no matter what, the TWU always finds a way to screw the membership.
WE are in a New year, with a new company, with a new CEO, It's TIME to get a new Union as well.
Just how much money do you think is acceptable for us to loose before you and the other officers finally say, "we tried to make changes but we failed" the yrs of staying with the TWU need to come to an END.
You have said some place here that you would go back to your tools or even work for someone else if it were out on the Island. Well why don't you throw your hat toward the fight to remove the TWU. No matter who is in office we get screwed, be a part of the solution rather part of the problem.
AMFA at the NEW AA in 2014
For one thing for every one guy who tells me to give up several thank me for continuing to try, and most of them have filled out any card that was handed to them. Some have even said that if they get a different union in here they wanted me to continue to represent them with that union. To me there is a job to be done, my peers have elected me to represent them, that's what I do. As long as I can afford to do that I will, regardless of the name of the organization that collects the dues. So go ahead and continue to do what you think is right and I will do the same.AMFAinMIAMI said:
AMFAinMIAMI
Veteran
Bob Owens said:
Bob
So with all that the TWU has done to us the AMT's of AA and the airlines as a whole
you still feel that working for a union that you yourself have said has ruined the lives and futures of so many by what they have done is still worth it?
Would you be better serving your fellow amt's as a leader to replace the union which you feel has taken so much from you and your family.
Just what job is left to do? What changes have you made to your pay check and mine?
We have lost so much, and as long as the TWU is still here at AA we will loose much more. Many have sung your praises with what you represent as a union guy, others have said negative things. I for one don't really know you so I can't say one way or the other.
If there are no changes at the Local level of scamming, what makes you think the job you do is going to effect the overall scamming by the TWU? You have many yrs here at AA, others have walked away to join the fight, they are respected for that, don't you think that if you and others told the TWU to shove it, we could rid AA of this union and bring in AMFA. You could serve our class and craft as a leader there before you retire and walk away from this industry. Holding your head high knowing that you help bring a change to help the AMT's of the future.
You and others came to most of the stations before this last contract, there was lots of tough talk by the guy from ORD and others but when all was said and done we were hood winked again. The Tulsa guys and others around the system bought into this and now we are screwed until at least 2017 and beyond.
Do you want to have the TWU at our next negotiations? Or have a joint IAM team?
Even this stock equity is a mess, How much more do you think we the membership should have to endure?
If you Look at your self as a Leader as other say you are then isn't it time for you to help lead against the TWU?
AMFA at AA in 2014
