TWU - To Re-Vote Also!

[N305AS]

the blood is on their hands...not ours....

Funny...I seem to recall Charlie Bryan from the IAM saying something very similar prior to forcing Eastern Air Lines into a strike, followed by bankruptcy, and ultimately liquidation.

Be careful what you wish for. That''s all I''m going to say...

 

[AAONO]

Why didn''t AMR file for bankruptcy today? time was of the essence last week. Too bad it was to beat the SEC filing, not bank payments. Looks like Carty''s crying wolf. Yes we are in deep trouble as a company, but I would rather let AAll the information about the business be on the table and let a judge decide. By the way, I think Carty is a master of not telling the whole story. He keeps saying he took a 33% pay cut this year. Did he fail to mention he had a 38% pay raise last year? "The 33% pay cut for Carty in 2003 would leave him only 7% below his 2001 base pay." (source CNN Money.com) He "failed to mention the retaining bonuses. What else did you fail to mention? Well, your honor.............

See you in the unemployment line

 

[AAdockmech]

RV4 you''re right what we need is a good leader with a good plan that will turn us into a stronger but much leaner airline not a fat (too many employees and way too much waste) and weak (unhappy undercompensated workers) airline. Easy? Are you kidding? It''s not easy to turn a fat couch potato into a body builder. It takes a lot of work but to build muscle you don''t starve yourself either. Yes, we need major cuts but don''t starve what is left.

 

[AAmech]

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On 4/21/2003 6:40:06 PM kimmyg wrote:


AAObserver, I really wonder about you. Number one, the bk judge
will not touch our holidays, vacation, overtime, station/system protection
or sick time.

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Don't know who's filling your head with these stories but you'd better start learning about the Sec.1113 process. When AA files BK they will immediatly file for a temporary change of our agreement under Sec.1113. This will enable them to cut our pay and remove system protection right off the bat. NO RATIFICATION VOTE IS NEEDED FOR TEMP CHANGES! The IAM tried to fight the temp changes at UAL. Didn't work! Judge even twisted the knive by making thier cuts RETROACTIVE! Next the company will use Sec1113 to make their permanant changes. The company will have to meet certain "tests". One of them being access to financial data. Was the non-disclosure of the Serps and Bonuses relevant? If it was, we get to negotiate again. Except for bigger cuts this time. Maybe we can give up our pension this time. Or maybe just bigger cuts in pay. If they wern't, the Co can petition to dismiss our contract immediatly. Now we're essentially a Non-Union outfit. The Judge does not get to pick and choose which parts of our contract he likes or dislikes, or compare UAL's or other airlines deals. He either accepts it or rejects it completly. But hey, we can go on strike when the company comes out of BK.

What I want to know is, HOW DOES ALL THIS HELP ME?

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 8:09:48 PM AAObserver wrote:


I'm glad the thought of a bankruptcy reorganization plan excites you. Obviously, the thousands of jobs that will be lost doesn't phase you very much (maybe you have lots of seniority or something). And remember, a BK AA means that customers will be flocking to Delta and Continental since many of them have seen others get stuck with worthless tickets after carriers cease service with no notice.

I'm quite sure the only reason you feel this way is because you have no idea what happens to companies and employees in bankruptcy.

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All you produce is more FEAR. There is no plan? Or you don't care about any plan?

If all you want to do is save JOBS, and you are in an industry flooded with over capacity, then you are placing more jobs in jeopardy than any downsize will.

I hate to inform you but someone has to buy tickets at a profitable price to fund those jobs. The jobs dont just survive because we keep ariplanes flying via concessions!

So lets' go your way. The union members again vote for concessions, then Delta, Continental, Northwest, ect. also use the fear tactics you use to extract concessions. Now we are in the same position, too much capacity and not enough demand. So now we all fight over customers at $25 per ticket instead of the current $44 sale.

And where do we end up? Still losing money, still facing BK, and still NO PLAN.

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 821 PM RV4 wrote:


All you produce is more FEAR. There is no plan? Or you don't care about any plan?

If all you want to do is save JOBS, and you are in an industry flooded with over capacity, then you are placing more jobs in jeopardy than any downsize will.

I hate to inform you but someone has to buy tickets at a profitable price to fund those jobs. The jobs dont just survive because we keep ariplanes flying via concessions!

So lets' go your way. The union members again vote for concessions, then Delta, Continental, Northwest, ect. also use the fear tactics you use to extract concessions. Now we are in the same position, too much capacity and not enough demand. So now we all fight over customers at $25 per ticket instead of the current $44 sale.

And where do we end up? Still losing money, still facing BK, and still NO PLAN.


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If the union members vote for the concessions, then AA is in a much better position to sustain itself under today's ticket prices. If you check statistics, you'll see that capacity is not the biggest problem these days. Most flights are pretty full even with all the world issues.

The problem is that Southwest, Jet Blue, etc. have driven ticket prices down to low levels, and businesses are no longer willing to pay the premium last minute prices for their travellers. Therefore, AA and the other major airlines have had to lower their prices to keep the planes full. And just because a flight is full doesn't mean it's profitable.

If AA's costs (primarily labor costs) were in line with today's market, they could continue on as they are right now. AA has already reduced capacity, but it's cost structure has remained way to high to support the reduced capacity even when the planes are full.

 

[AAObserver]

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Exactly!

I keep waiting for "the plan" to be released so we can get excited about the future and see where the concessions might take us. All I see is more of the same and a belief that BIG is still better. I am sorry but I am just in complete disagree with the "give more concessions, status quo" operation.

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I''m glad the thought of a bankruptcy reorganization plan excites you. Obviously, the thousands of jobs that will be lost doesn''t phase you very much (maybe you have lots of seniority or something). And remember, a BK AA means that customers will be flocking to Delta and Continental since many of them have seen others get stuck with worthless tickets after carriers cease service with no notice.

I''m quite sure the only reason you feel this way is because you have no idea what happens to companies and employees in bankruptcy.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 6:59:21 PM Resman1 wrote:

I predict without the concessions, the filing will be this week. I think the filing would have happened sometime this year even with concessions. This company has a horrible business model and owes 25 billion dollars in long term debt. There is no revenue, this company based it's revenue model on gouching business travelers 15-20 times more than leisure travelers. Those days are gone for good. I am just hoping AA hangs around long enough for me to finish getting my degree so I can get the hell out.

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Exactly!

I keep waiting for "the plan" to be released so we can get excited about the future and see where the concessions might take us. All I see is more of the same and a belief that BIG is still better. I am sorry but I am just in complete disagreement with the "give more concessions, status quo" operation.

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 9:07:31 PM RV4 wrote:


Do you have some assurances that "todays" ticket prices will not drop with everyone''s concessions?

You missed the point. Once concessions are given by all airlines we will be fighting for customers at $25 per ticket instead of the current $44 sale.

Then  what? Another round of concessions? Then $12 tickets?

READ UP ON SUPPLY vs. DEMAND



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I understand your point entirely. However, I think you fail to understand that AA is already fighting for customers at the low ticket prices you refer to. There''s no "will be" -- "will be" is already here. The concessions will simply bring the costs in line to support the reality of the market.

Using your logic, since the ticket prices are continuing to fall do you really believe it makes sense to keep the status quo by voting "no"?

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 9:17:17 PM AAObserver wrote:

I understand your point entirely. However, I think you fail to understand that AA is already fighting for customers at the low ticket prices you refer to. There''s no "will be" -- "will be" is already here. The concessions will simply bring the costs in line to support the reality of the market.

Using your logic, since the ticket prices are continuing to fall do you really believe it makes sense to keep the status quo by voting "no"?


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How many friggin times do you have be told I think downsizing of the airline is in the best interest of ALL parties involved? And the other airlines too for that matter. Or else someone is going to have their entire workforce on the street. Do you favor that? If yes, who''s workforce?

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 8:44:17 PM AAObserver wrote:

If the union members vote for the concessions, then AA is in a much better position to sustain itself under today''s ticket prices. If you check statistics, you''ll see that capacity is not the biggest problem these days. Most flights are pretty full even with all the world issues.

The problem is that Southwest, Jet Blue, etc. have driven ticket prices down to low levels, and businesses are no longer willing to pay the premium last minute prices for their travellers. Therefore, AA and the other major airlines have had to lower their prices to keep the planes full. And just because a flight is full doesn''t mean it''s profitable.

If AA''s costs (primarily labor costs) were in line with today''s market, they could continue on as they are right now. AA has already reduced capacity, but it''s cost structure has remained way to high to support the reduced capacity even when the planes are full.

----------------​

Do you have some assurances that "todays" ticket prices will not drop with everyone''s concessions?

You missed the point. Once concessions are given by all airlines we will be fighting for customers at $25 per ticket instead of the current $44 sale.

Then what? Another round of concessions? Then $12 tickets?

READ UP ON SUPPLY vs. DEMAND

 

[AC AA LA FA]

It seems the only way we will se a plan from AA is in BK..when they will have to set the course for some future operation. Til now we have all been told our "plan" is there is no plan...business as usual..with lowered cost "on the backs of labor"..and set sail......hua, you ask?
What in Gods name do they think they are doing...and they cant figure out why we question their competence..along with their credibility?
it is disgusting....is it not?

 

[AAONO]

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On 4/21/2003 8:44:17 PM AAObserver wrote:

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On 4/21/2003 821 PM RV4 wrote:



All you produce is more FEAR. There is no plan? Or you don''t care about any plan?

If all you want to do is save JOBS, and you are in an industry flooded with over capacity, then you are placing more jobs in jeopardy than any downsize will.

I hate to inform you but someone has to buy tickets at a profitable price to fund those jobs. The jobs dont just survive because we keep ariplanes flying via concessions!

So lets'' go your way. The union members again vote for concessions, then Delta, Continental, Northwest, ect. also use the fear tactics you use to extract concessions. Now we are in the same position, too much capacity and not enough demand. So now we all fight over customers at $25 per ticket instead of the current $44 sale.

And where do we end up? Still losing money, still facing BK, and still NO PLAN.


----------------​

If the union members vote for the concessions, then AA is in a much better position to sustain itself under today''s ticket prices. If you check statistics, you''ll see that capacity is not the biggest problem these days. Most flights are pretty full even with all the world issues.


Do you work at HDQ? You obviously do not work at the airport, after spring break the airplanes have been empty. I witness it daily. Too much capacity!!!

The problem is that Southwest, Jet Blue, etc. have driven ticket prices down to low levels, and businesses are no longer willing to pay the premium last minute prices for their travellers. Therefore, AA and the other major airlines have had to lower their prices to keep the planes full. And just because a flight is full doesn''t mean it''s profitable. (Reduce the number of available seats, and raise the price when demand exceeds supply.... SUPPLY and DEMAND......I learned that in the 3rd grade!)

If AA''s costs (primarily labor costs) (like too many management people?, I have 5 supervisors in the office where only 1 maybe 2 is needed. Come visit, I''ll show you!)were in line with today''s market,( todays market, a Southwest mechanic makes more than I do before the concessions, ya, they outsource their overhaul....Hey Don, get the idea.....oh yea, you did because you said you''d close 2 of the overhaul bases in chapter 11....BRAVO!) they could continue on as they are right now. AA has already reduced capacity,(by parking some old TWA aircraft and a few dutch ovens?) but it''s cost structure has remained way to high to support the reduced capacity ???even when the planes are full.

See you in the unemployment line!

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[PORKCHOP]

Yes we have to downsize we can reduce headcount by 25% on both sides and not miss a beat. Both the management and union need to be ACCOUNTABLE.8 HOURS WORK FOR 8 HOURS PAY.

 

[Airline Crew Sched]

A re vote does not matter. If the unions agree to have a revote Carty will declare BK. We are going to get it either way with no vaseline. I think we need to agree to the concessions but he lost the confidence and trust of the employees. The only way we stay out of BK now is if he Cart leaves, because the Unions are hurt enough to fight him until he quits or the company dies. I hope he quits so we survive