Twu Takes The Challenge, Sets Place & Time

[Checking it Out]

This is interesting, Amfa wantabes claiming they think mechanics are stupid and should not be the ones debating? How poetic!

Time line

September 9 TWU members show up at the USAir meeting and get kicked out by Dell-femine himself.

September 12 TWU members get kicked out at all 3 meetings, does not allow Art Luby to attend.

December Amfa challenges TWU for a debate thru the Tulsa world.

December 15 fliers show up asking for a debate with the TWU no time just a flyer.

December 22 4pm TWU takes the offer up and has requested a date of January 15th.

December 22 7pm Fliers show up on the Internet from Amfa with their own time and date.

December 22 10pm Dave Stewart shows up at work to pass out hundreds of fliers in a childish attempt to deceive the members into believing they were the ones to initiate a time first.

Amfa wantabes really think the members are stupid, if anyone thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

The TWU has stood up and has taken Amfa up on the offer. With instructions on who to contact for any inquiries. This shows a definite lack of professionalism on AMFA’s part to do what they are attempting to do. If they had any honesty and morals they would have sent a letter to the appropriate contact at the bottom of the letter. Since they have chosen to lie and deceive why would they do any different in representing you?

The time is January 15th at noon and 4pm. As per the Instructions anyone is welcome to attend. I am sure the proper TWU members will be present to debate at that time and the TWU has no intentions to be dictated to by a group who has stooped to new lows.

I'm sure if amfa comes down to earth and acts like professionals and contacts the TWU in a professional manner than some items may be changed. The date has been set and will probably not be changed. Just think amfa wantabes will not have to beg for the money to rent a place.

Amfa needs to stand up and take the offer presented and quit whining about it!!!

Rumor has it amfa is afraid to debate, and cannot be upfront, Amfa is notorious for kicking out members who they do not want in a meeting, this is the whole jest of not wanting to debate the TWU. They want the option to oust certain people and control the questions.

You need to look at the posts on the different threads and you will see amfa is not standing up and praising the challenge of the TWU, instead they are whinning and defending themselfs about the botched letter they sent out after the TWU set a time and date.

Most true and honest Unions would not have done what they did. Oh! I forget they are not upfront, they have a habit of telling you what you want to hear at the moment and it changes by the hour.

Will Amfa be Men and quit the rhetoric? or will they continue to whine? These are the real question!!!!

 

[Rusty]

/index.php...?showtopic=8285

 

[TWU informer]

 

[TWU informer]

TWU CHALLENGES AMFA TO DEBATE
AMFA Responds By Asking for Alternative Debate

On Monday, December 22, at 4pm, the TWU faxed a debate challenge to AMFA’s headquarters in Laconia, New Hampshire. Rather than accepting the TWU’s challenge, AMFA responded three hours later by proposing an alternative debate to be held two days after the debate hosted by the TWU.

There will only be one day of debates. On Thursday, January 15, at the Renaissance Hotel in Tulsa, TEAM TWU will have a panel of rank and file leaders who will make the case for sticking with our union. We are still waiting to hear whether AMFA is ready to step up to the plate and have their rank and file leaders show up and debate on January 15.

TEAM TWU decided to propose a debate with rank and file leaders because we are the ones who need to debate and decide which organization – the TWU or AMFA – is best able to represent us in the future. Our local leaders are best equipped to debate how we can protect our jobs and improve our wages and benefits in the years to come.

AMFA wants a format with its national director, O.V Delle-Femine, debating Sonny Hall. We reject this proposal because we are not about to let a bureaucrat from Laconia, New Hampshire, dictate how we will debate and how we will make our decisions.

TWU is Ready To Debate on January 15th
Will AMFA Accept Our Challenge?
TEAM TWU

The water is extrememly muddy in the TWU communications.

First they claim "TWU takes the challenge" Then they claim they faxed and "They challenged AMFA".

This reminds me of the contract ratification procedures of 2003. Remember that? 3200 Member did not recieve a PIN number to vote. Oh no, it was only about 300. We are going to re-vote because management lined their pockets and failed to disclose that information. Oh no, "Without Further Ratification" Jim Little accpets the agreement.

Have you noticed that when the TWU is faced with tough decisions, their communications become so cloudy we cannot understand where they are coming from or what the message is intended to be?

 

[Bob Owens]

This is interesting, Amfa wantabes claiming they think mechanics are stupid and should not be the ones debating? How poetic!

Time line

September 9 TWU members show up at the USAir meeting and get kicked out by Dell-femine himself.

September 12 TWU members get kicked out at all 3 meetings, does not allow Art Luby to attend.

December Amfa challenges TWU for a debate thru the Tulsa world.

December 15 fliers show up asking for a debate with the TWU no time just a flyer.

December 22 4pm TWU takes the offer up and has requested a date of January 15th.

December 22 7pm Fliers show up on the Internet from Amfa with their own time and date.

December 22 10pm Dave Stewart shows up at work to pass out hundreds of fliers in a childish attempt to deceive the members into believing they were the ones to initiate a time first.

Amfa wantabes really think the members are stupid, if anyone thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

The TWU has stood up and has taken Amfa up on the offer. With instructions on who to contact for any inquiries. This shows a definite lack of professionalism on AMFA’s part to do what they are attempting to do. If they had any honesty and morals they would have sent a letter to the appropriate contact at the bottom of the letter. Since they have chosen to lie and deceive why would they do any different in representing you?

The time is January 15th at noon and 4pm. As per the Instructions anyone is welcome to attend. I am sure the proper TWU members will be present to debate at that time and the TWU has no intentions to be dictated to by a group who has stooped to new lows.

I'm sure if amfa comes down to earth and acts like professionals and contacts the TWU in a professional manner than some items may be changed. The date has been set and will probably not be changed. Just think amfa wantabes will not have to beg for the money to rent a place.

Amfa needs to stand up and take the offer presented and quit whining about it!!!

Rumor has it amfa is afraid to debate, and cannot be upfront, Amfa is notorious for kicking out members who they do not want in a meeting, this is the whole jest of not wanting to debate the TWU. They want the option to oust certain people and control the questions.

You need to look at the posts on the different threads and you will see amfa is not standing up and praising the challenge of the TWU, instead they are whinning and defending themselfs about the botched letter they sent out after the TWU set a time and date.

Most true and honest Unions would not have done what they did. Oh! I forget they are not upfront, they have a habit of telling you what you want to hear at the moment and it changes by the hour.

Will Amfa be Men and quit the rhetoric? or will they continue to whine? These are the real question!!!!

CIO;

If members want to participate in a member to member debate they can do that right here or on other websites.

Lets shed a little light on some of your claims here;

Sept 9, This was clarified already. The meeting was for USAIR people only. The USAIR workers voted to kick out the TWU guys because they went there for answers and felt that the interlopers would be disrupting. The TWU guys had no business being there since they were not invited, were not members of the same union or employees of the same company. The issue at hand could in no way have a direct impacvt on the TWU supporters and they would have no legal participation in an election.


Sept 12- I saw the video tape. Why was the lady from Zebco there? Could she send in a valid card or vote on an election for representation? No. Why was she there? Same with Art Luby. The only people who were asked to leave were those who were not part of the class and craft. All who could participate in an election were invited, including the Shop Stewards who were getting paid.

Dec 15- Actually the challenge for a debate was made at the Sept meeting. Its on tape I believe. Why would the TWU pick a day and time that eliminates the ability of most of the targeted members from attending? Will the TWU supporters be getting paid? Will the TWU members that sit on the panel for the AMFA side be getting paid?

"Amfa wantabes really think the members are stupid, if anyone thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world."

This statement comes from the same person who said that members only have a 15 minute attention span. AMFA does not think the members are stupid, in fact they think that they are smart enough to be given the choice of who runs the union and the right to recall those who the members feel are not doing a good job. On the other hand the TWU, and its supporters often trash the membership for not participating and feel that the members can not be trusted to have control over the leadership. The TWU believes that the union should control the members and not that the members should control the union.

Lets look at the TWUs behavior.

Sonny Hall was found guilty of violating workers rights by refusing to allow rival candidates the ability to speak to members of THE SAME LOCAL! Now how could anyone think that throwing out members of the same local is right? Only Sonny Hall could. The courts disagreed with Sonny Hall and not only found him guilty but added that Sonny has a pattern of illegally suppressing opposing points of view. His methods of suppression included denial of free speach and possibly working with management to get people fired who opposed him.

Members of Local 562 requested permission to attend a Local 514 meeting. Members of the same union, same company, working under the same contract. The 562 members requested this because they felt that their brothers and sisters in Tulsa were not cognizant to the difficulties we faced out here on the line. LOCAL 514 REFUSED TO ALLOW their brothers and sisters from other Locals to share this information. Now if we all are in the same union, working for the same company, under the same contract why would 514 not allow their brothers and sisters from other Locals who are directly impacted to share their opinions and how it will impact them with the members of Local 514? How could we ever expect to have Solidarity if Locals like 514 choose to keep the members ignorant of the difficulties that their brothers and sister across the country face?

In the Spring of 2003 Local 562 requested from Butch Sponougle the opportunity to address his members in MCI about the Concessionary contract for the same reasons as above. Butch said OK, however when we got there the E-Board said no and asked us to leave after going 1500 miles to get there. Once again, we wanted to share our opinions and point of view with our Brothers and Sisters in the same union, working for the same employer under the same contract. Once again the TWU would not allow the free exchange of information and tried to suppress any opinion that differed from theirs.


So who has a pattern of suppression? The TWU or AMFA?

AMFA did tell people to leave their meetings, but all of those people fell into the category of people who had no real connection to the reason or the purpose of the meeting. None of those asked to leave could legally participate in a representational election between AMFA and the other union involved. They were either non-employees as in the USAIR meeting, Art Luby, and the Zebco lady, or not under the same contract as in those members asked to leave the Tulsa meeting. In other words they should not have been there. They had no more business being at the meeting than a member of management.

Whereas the TWU throws out members, working for the same company, in the same union, (sometimes even the same Local), working under the same contract solely for the purpose of suppressing internal opposition or preventing the distribution of information that may not support the decisions of those at the top. In the TWU examples of evictions, the members were never given the option to decide for themselves whether or not their brothers and sisters should be allowed to share their views.


As far as a debate between the members, we are having that here. I would like to see a debate between those who are at the top. That was the intent of the challenge.

I've experienced the TWU version of fair play. Where they can accuse, without even talking to those who they are placing charges against, where the accusor picks the Judge and Jury-all people who are subordinate to the accusor, and then convict without supporting evidence.

The fact is the TWU has been disengenous to all of us for years. Its supporters dont even have the nerve to stand up and identify themselves. From anoniminity they make accusations and question the morals and ethic of others. Their reasons for this are obvious especially when you consider who the TWU likes to promote. People who are unfaithful and dishonest in their private lives are more than likely even more so in their public lives. People who cheat, beat and abuse those closest to them are not the type of people who I want to trust my career to. I was told by Bobby Gless that a certain International Official from Tulsa, had to resign from one of his positions because he not only slept with the girl friend of the President of one of the locals, while that person was putting him up in his house but was also involved in some shady insurance scam through the same girl. This person still has a spot on the International board. Its understandable why someone like that would not come out and say "I'm so and so, and I support the TWU. " I'll not even go into the two International appointees from our Local but I think its says enough that neither of them, by the choice of the members of Local 562 could be reelected. Yet these are the people who run the union, not elected by the members, but who the elected representatives must be subordinate to, less they be accused of not supporting the union!

Everyone makes errors in their lives and no one is without sin, but when people continue with such behavior and continue to lie and decieve and show no sign that they plan to alter their ways then you have to make a choice. Do we distance ourselves from them or try to draw them in? In the case of the TWU, the top is a sum of its parts. If it is made up a self serving, dishonest people who have a bad track record then its output is predictable. The same thing could happen to AMFA. The critical difference is that with the TWU the ability of the membership is severely limited. The membership is extremely spread out both geographically and industrially. Its nearly impossible to challenge the status quo. The current structure is designed to be self perpetuating.

In 1995 this union pushed through a hugely concessionary contract while the company was earning record profits. After getting it through and denying challenges to the vote which the TWU claim only passed by 77 votes (while voiding out hundreds) they spent the next six years blaming the members and saying "we will get them next time".

In all the contracts from 1983 the TWU gave some form of concession. Each time they claimed that they would get it back next time. We are still waiting.

In 2000 AMFA upset the whole company/union partnership when they demanded $40/hr for mechanics. During those negotiations the President sided with management and announced ahead of time that he woulod issue a PEB and not allow the NWA mechanics to strike. In the end they still got $35. The biggest increase mechanics have ever seen. Other company/unions were forced to match it.

In 2003 the TWU gave more concessions than any other union, more than either UAL and USAIR, two companies that were never able to obtain the TWU industry leading concessions over the last twenty years.

By 2005, if the TWU is still here, and AA decides that its OK to show profits again, that is if they are not still buying new airplanes, building new terminals, prepaying leases, still installing obscenely priced first class "suites", and other "necessary" expenses, the TWU will say that "we voted for it".

A union is supposed to not only represent, but educate, inform and lead. This union does none of this. They do not represent, they do not educate(most of their own top leaders have no idea who Mother Jones, The Molly MaGuires, Joe Hill or Eugine Debs was, without knowing where you have been how do you know where you are going?) they misinform by only telling us what supports the postion they have taken, which usually coincides with the position of the company, and have been "leading " us backwards for twenty years. Presidents councils have often been told that it is their job as leaders to "sell this to the members".

Education is their biggest shortfall. And there is a good reason why the TWU chooses to not educate. If the TWU educates their members as to what unions are really all about it will make it even more obvious that the TWU does not fit the description. The IAM has always been more militant and more educated, thats why they lost more members to AMFA than the TWU, so far.

The TWU/ATD at AA is not a union. It is a business. Presidents councils are not urged to be repreentatives of the members but "Leaders" from the International. While every TWU officer and supporter is not a dishonest opportunist, it does seem that these are the types of people that get promoted. And in the TWU we have no control over who gets promoted or put in position beyond our own locals. AND THAT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE since our contract is under the posssion of those people.

 

[TeamTWU]

Why did I know Bob that when you stated "Let's shed some light" that my scroll button would get worn out, how do you type and eat at the same moment? Hate to see your keyboard smorgasboard.

 

[Bob Owens]

Why did I know Bob that when you stated "Let's shed some light" that my scroll button would get worn out, how do you type and eat at the same moment? Hate to see your keyboard smorgasboard.

Thats right. Because unlike you I dont say "just trust me". I give as much information as possible so the reader can understand how I come to my conclusions.

Does my being fat make me untrustworthy or my opinions irrelevant? What if I was black, or Jewish or hispanic? Would you attack that too?

The sad fact of the matter is that Team TWU cant debate the issues on an open a free forum.

 

[Calvin]

If the membership is the one affected by the initiation of a vote on representation then why wouldn't the membership be the ones to debate? I have read these boards as a guest for quite some time and have come to the conclusion that AMFA followers , or associate members, or whatever they call themselves today have really only two issues over the pending debate.

• Money, time off work, their possible future is not worth an hour's pay
• Education-afraid to face membership

Maybe I'm wrong here but it sure looks obvious. AMFA guys pat each other on the back for postings, that in itself is juvenile and not what I want representing my livlihood.

 

[Bob Owens]

If the membership is the one affected by the initiation of a vote on representation then why wouldn't the membership be the ones to debate? I have read these boards as a guest for quite some time and have come to the conclusion that AMFA followers , or associate members, or whatever they call themselves today have really only two issues over the pending debate.

• Money, time off work, their possible future is not worth an hour's pay
  
  
  
  
  
• Education-afraid to face membership

Maybe I'm wrong here but it sure looks obvious. AMFA guys pat each other on the back for postings, that in itself is juvenile and not what I want representing my livlihood.

If the TWU has called for a debate "BETWEEN the members" then it should treat the members equally regardless of their postions on the issue under debate. If the TWU has decided the terms of the debate then they should ensure that both sides are treated equitably. So if they are going to use all the members money to pay for one sides lost time and prep for the debate they should offer the other members the same since after all both sides are members and should be treated equally right?

I think that if these terms are offered then the debate between the members at the time and place of the TWU's choosing is perfectly acceptable, even if it is done when most members cant participate.

Clearly the TWU has an objective here. Its obviously not about the issues, there is ample opportunity for members to debate the issues here. My feeling is that the TWU wants to burn off the time that the AMFA supporters have available to campaign once there is an election.

So the objection is not simply about money or sacrificing time, since the AMFA supporters have shown that they are willing to sacrifice both. Nor is it about education since AMFA tries to schedule their debates when most can participate.

AMFA called for a debate between AMFA and the TWU. The TWU has only agreed to allow TWU members to debate about AMFA. Well really does a volunteer organizers word carry more weight than the head of the organization? If the tables were turned and AMFA called for a debate without any AMFA or TWU officials there you would complain about that. I've never heard of an official "debate between members " of the same union. Basically what you are calling for is a union meeting where this time you dont rule the member out of order if they express a differing point of view. Would members normally want to hear another members opinion on the organization or get it straight from the top? Who is being disengenous here?

What do you want representing you? People who you can not elect who will not even defend the organization or its track record?

If the TWU brings up AMFAs "outsourcing" record at NWA who would better answer the question, Delle or a TWU member who had no part in the negotiations? If the TWU members who support the change to AMFA bring up the 20 years of industry leading concessions who should answer for it a member or the leaders who said that we were ritght to give all those concessions?

 

[TWU informer]

Here is why the TWU International fears a debate between International Representatives.

TWU vs AMFA at Horizon Air...

Audio clip form TWU International Staff and O.V. Delle-Femine debate at Horizon Air June of 2002 in Oregon.

AMFA vs. TWU Debate Horizon Air


Why does the TWU think the Horizon Air Mechanics were worthy of Top Leadership debate, but do not think AA Mechanics are worthy of the same information?

 

[Raptor]

What you said Bob is exactly the way I feel and probably a whole lot of other people, but the TWU would not pay us AMFA supporters to debate at their pointless debate because that would be to fair, and our future does not lie between six Mechanics from the same Union debating each other as the previous poster suggested.

 

[Calvin]

I disagree Mr. Owens. The TWU, in my opinion, is not liable to pay self admitted AMFA associate members in a debate. You are assisting AMFA in a takeover attempt of the TWU at AA. Why do you feel the union you so openly despise should donate to your personal wage. You seem to be in a fight for your livlihood, is this not worth a day's pay?

 

[Buck]

If the membership is the one affected by the initiation of a vote on representation then why wouldn't the membership be the ones to debate? I have read these boards as a guest for quite some time and have come to the conclusion that AMFA followers , or associate members, or whatever they call themselves today have really only two issues over the pending debate.

• Money, time off work, their possible future is not worth an hour's pay
  
  
  
  
• Education-afraid to face membership

Maybe I'm wrong here but it sure looks obvious. AMFA guys pat each other on the back for postings, that in itself is juvenile and not what I want representing my livlihood.

So it is the the affection of the membership that concerns you. Then why
rent a room for only 250 members and have the second meeting for only
one hour and on a Thursday?

Why agree without further ratification to the concessions?

Now that members are signing cards, the TWU finally after twenty years
of concessions decides that AMFA might indeed exist and might even be
a threat to their dues collection machine.

 

[Calvin]

It may be true a lot of members have signed cards, but I personally know of quite few that will not vote for AMFA even though they signed a card. I can't speak for the TWU but I have known of AMFA for over 10 years and find them more of a hassle to my union than a benefit to me.

Do you think AMFA would prevail at any workplace if times proved profittable for all? I do not, but that's just my opinion, thank you.

 

[Buck]

Do you think AMFA would prevail at any workplace if times proved profittable for all? I do not, but that's just my opinion, thank you.

AMFA represented mechanic and related are the ones who acheived the highest pay standard at the PEB for the mechanics at NWA. Times were at least better than they are now.