TWU negotiations.........what?

[Hopeful]

Fair enough---thanks for the detailed explanation.

Chapter 11 cannot come fast enough for me.

 

[Mr Red]

We put more into structural raises, if you build up a bunch of premiums what happens is your percentage increases end up being less than advertised.

All these premiums started out as a way of slipping the mechanics more money at a time when we all negotiated in joint. But over the long term what happens is a the chart rate increases portray our raises as being more than they actually are. The company would say that "We pay our guys $35 and hour and offered them a 3% raise just like our competitors offered their workers" but when $5 is licence premium, $2.55 is Line Premium, and $1.50 is MRT you have $9 of your hourly pay that is not increased by that three percent increase. So if you are making $35/hr and got a 3% inrease you would be expecting to see a $1.05/hr raise but instead you would only get a 78 cent raise. Your actual raise is 30% smaller than advertised. Then comes the question of pensionable and compounded in OT.

We are better off getting the increase built into the base chart rates, besides the fact is OH is the majority, while they have been supportive of the reasonable objective for Geographically based premiums to account for the cost of living, do you think that they would support a deal that puts them down $80/week from guys in the same city, with the same cost of living, working for the same hours for the same company but just across the Ramp? Would you? Should we split and fight over this or try and get something good for all of us? Remember that $2 more for the line premium came at the expense of two years of zero increase, elimination of retiree medical, line maintenance outsouricing of anything under a B check to foreign countries, raising the ASM cap and displacment of workers at class II and III cities, those were just line concessions, the bases would have been hit even harder with SMAs etc..

What about RETRO !No Retro = No Vote Also I thought Line was to get Premium,base Lump Payment.

 

[Hopeful]

What about RETRO !No Retro = No Vote Also I thought Line was to get Premium,base Lump Payment.

once again, Mr. Red....they sold out the line to appease the base!

 

[Tex-Mech]

What about RETRO !No Retro = No Vote Also I thought Line was to get Premium,base Lump Payment.

There still asking for retro in the proposal I just read. The company isn't offering it of course.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Maybe it is time to lock the company in a room 24/7 with around the clock negotiations somewhere in arkansas in a barn until we come to an agreement! Time to get out of Dallas!

While your thinking outside the box. Perhaps we could play the entire 2010 "Vote No" youtube series of the "Video Bob & Chuck show" over and over to the company until they cave in and pay up....

Still not seeing what you two promised, and losing money every day :angry:

 

[xUT]

Chapter 11 cannot come fast enough for me.

Yea, I've heard that before.
After you walk the walk, then get back to me.
Bookmarked this post and am looking forward to hearing the same from you after 1 or two years after BK (if that happens).

B) xUT

 

[strikeforce]

We put more into structural raises, if you build up a bunch of premiums what happens is your percentage increases end up being less than advertised.

All these premiums started out as a way of slipping the mechanics more money at a time when we all negotiated in joint. But over the long term what happens is a the chart rate increases portray our raises as being more than they actually are. The company would say that "We pay our guys $35 and hour and offered them a 3% raise just like our competitors offered their workers" but when $5 is license premium, $2.55 is Line Premium, and $1.50 is MRT you have $9 of your hourly pay that is not increased by that three percent increase. So if you are making $35/hr and got a 3% increase you would be expecting to see a $1.05/hr raise but instead you would only get a 78 cent raise. Your actual raise is 30% smaller than advertised. Then comes the question of pensionable and compounded in OT.

We are better off getting the increase built into the base chart rates, besides the fact is OH is the majority, while they have been supportive of the reasonable objective for Geographically based premiums to account for the cost of living, do you think that they would support a deal that puts them down $80/week from guys in the same city, with the same cost of living, working for the same hours for the same company but just across the Ramp? Would you? Should we split and fight over this or try and get something good for all of us? Remember that $2 more for the line premium came at the expense of two years of zero increase, elimination of retiree medical, line maintenance outsourcing of anything under a B check to foreign countries, raising the ASM cap and displacement of workers at class II and III cities, those were just line concessions, the bases would have been hit even harder with SMAs etc.

Sorry I'm back on this forum Bob, but I can't find the union's prior proposals to management regarding base chart rates. So can you please show me the difference between August 2011 AMT base chart rates in ART. 4 and prior proposals. The comprehensive sheet shows a 6% structural increase for 2009. What was it prior to August? I can't seem to find in the TWU website?
The reason I'm asking is the $2 line premium equates to about a 7% overall wage increase that was included in prior proposals, and if your theory explained above is correct then the union's structural increase should have been around 10 to 12% for 2009. So, in reality the union basically eliminated the line premium for line because the structural increases in August's proposal for 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 don't entirely reflect the $2 line premium.

To be frank Bob, when is the union going to realize that WE all pay the same union dues, but don't get EQUAL representation at the table. Tulsa obviously dictates negotiations.....the LINE has absolutely NO horsepower at the table, and this proposal is indicative of the sentiments to my arguments of separating OH and Line. Then you wonder why there's so much animosity between Line and OH, and this animosity will continue until LINE get's equal footing with OH. I know it's a pipe dream, but if the union wants UNITY.....they better fix this problem because it's festering and the company applauds it. They love the animosity between union members. It's pathetic!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

While your thinking outside the box. Perhaps we could play the entire 2010 "Vote No" youtube series of the "Video Bob & Chuck show" over and over to the company until they cave in and pay up....

Still not seeing what you two promised, and losing money every day :angry:

What was promised and provide proof.

 

[Bob Owens]

Sorry I'm back on this forum Bob, but I can't find the union's prior proposals to management regarding base chart rates. So can you please show me the difference between August 2011 AMT base chart rates in ART. 4 and prior proposals. The comprehensive sheet shows a 6% structural increase for 2009. What was it prior to August? I can't seem to find in the TWU website?
The reason I'm asking is the $2 line premium equates to about a 7% overall wage increase that was included in prior proposals, and if your theory explained above is correct then the union's structural increase should have been around 10 to 12% for 2009. So, in reality the union basically eliminated the line premium for line because the structural increases in August's proposal for 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 don't entirely reflect the $2 line premium.

To be frank Bob, when is the union going to realize that WE all pay the same union dues, but don't get EQUAL representation at the table. Tulsa obviously dictates negotiations.....the LINE has absolutely NO horsepower at the table, and this proposal is indicative of the sentiments to my arguments of separating OH and Line. Then you wonder why there's so much animosity between Line and OH, and this animosity will continue until LINE get's equal footing with OH. I know it's a pipe dream, but if the union wants UNITY.....they better fix this problem because it's festering and the company applauds it. They love the animosity between union members. It's pathetic!!!

Not sure what you are looking for as far as the chart rates, the only change since last fall is we added another year on the tail end for 6% back in June because the company wanted a longer term contract, but in defense of Tulsa they have two votes, same as AFW, DFW, LAX, MIA, NYC and ORD unless someone calls for a Roll call vote. That has not happened since May of 2010 when Todd Woodward and Steve Luis were in office.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Not sure what you are looking for as far as the chart rates, the only change since last fall is we added another year on the tail end for 6% back in June because the company wanted a longer term contract, but in defense of Tulsa they have two votes, same as AFW, DFW, LAX, MIA, NYC and ORD unless someone calls for a Roll call vote. That has not happened since May of 2010 when Todd Woodward and Steve Luis were in office.

Funny that you bring up the Roll call vote. Are you suggesting this is what needs to happen to bust things loose and generate an agreement?

 

[DFWrobAMT]

now that the TWU has dropped the ball, AGAIN, it's time for everyone to get an AMP card signed if not already and let's move to making a change! if for nothing else, it will scare the company into thinking they might lose their bed buddy TWU and maybe we might get a deal going. anyone with their head up their butt wanting to give TWU more time or 'stay the course' then maybe the last wasted year or so of no progress negotiations will finally slap you into realizing it's time for a change!! go AMP! think about the secretaries making twice what we make, with all their holidays off, sick time, etc etc. are we really okAAy with this?! Jim Little and his bunch taking raises year after year after year while we get nothing? HELLO!?!?

 

[Birdman]

Does this article, if true, have any bearing on negotiations in regard to projected growth in retirement obligations?

RetirementJobs.com Reveals Rankings of Employers by Percentage of Workers Over Age 50
May 31, 2011
WALTHAM, MA—May 31, 2011—Today, RetirementJobs.com, Inc., the #1 career website for job-seekers age 50+, announced its rankings of Fortune 500 employers by their percentage of workers over age 50.  The findings, drawn from public records and surveys of employers and employees, show the airline industry as having the highest percentage of employees over age 50.  American Airlines held the #1 position with 39% of its staff over age 50.  Google ranked among the lowest on the list, with just 13% exceeding that age threshold. 

 

[TWU informer]

We have just witnessed Airline Negotiations conducted with a union strategy that was more like a mediated World Series of Poker than professional negotiations. Once the bluff and the slogans were called by AA, we are now "All In" and we hold nothing more than a Joker and a Duece in our hand.

We cannot even fold and keep our chips now.

Dumbass fools

 

[Tex-Mech]

We have just witnessed Airline Negotiations conducted with a union strategy that was more like a mediated World Series of Poker than professional negotiations. Once the bluff and the slogans were called by AA, we are now "All In" and we hold nothing more than a Joker and a Duece in our hand.

We cannot even fold and keep our chips now.

Dumbass fools

I would say that we still had a chance on a once in a lifetime bluff, but someone in the process of trying to avoid spilling their beer accidently turned their cards over showing the Joker and the Duece (of hearts-of course). Or was it that in exchange for some extra poker chips, they volunteered to turn the cards over and show the Joker and the Duece.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

What about RETRO !No Retro = No Vote Also I thought Line was to get Premium,base Lump Payment.

Funny how you seem to think a lump sum for O/H is fair with line getting an hourly bump. Lets see..... If O/H took a lump payment and then AA drags out the next negotiations making a three year deal into a ten year deal, then line guys keep getting their hourly pay while O/H gets squat. I would not vote for a contract that screwed the line guys by giving them a lump payment. I am also thanking God we have someone like Bob Owens negotiating instead of you. Lump sum payments and a variable compensation package that may or may not pay once a quarter is unacceptable. That goes for any work group!