TWU negotiations.........what?

[eolesen]

Maybe the TWU should deduct the cost of the car from these bloated excessive union fatcat salaries.

Do you know for a fact that it hasn't already been deducted?....

 

[Hopeful]

Do you know for a fact that it hasn't already been deducted?....

Knowing the TWU, I sincerely doubt it.
Bob Owens would know more.

Keep in mind the TWU International fatcats are cut from the same cloth that fatcat executives are.
No difference to me. They both know what's best for us!

 

[767 mechanic]

Perhaps you are right about the losses, I still think that the showing of losses was intentional. With all their labor agreements open what benifit would the company have had at this point in time showing a profit?

Bob I have to agree with you about the losses being intentional. The other airlines turned a profit and AA was the only one that showed a loss!!!!!!!!!! This is not coincidence. As far as some of the people here that are buying into the line verses ao arguement. If the only issue was where you worked determined how much an individual makes then the other airlines Delta,UA,US,CON and NWA could have done that pretty easy during bankruptcy,but they chose not implement those rules under bankruptcy. Delta had no union for the mechanics and would have had an even easier time to do so if it had chosen,but they did'nt. One thing that we might want to think about is that the carriers like SWA are point to point airlines and not hub and spoke like the others. I'm not taking sides just pointing out some facts. Signing your name to something on the line or in the hangar to me is taking the same risk. Oh by the way I am 100% in favor of a geo pay for the people in a high cost of living area. Instead of falling into the trap of line verses ao that the company and the twu international tries to do,why don't we work together like we should be.

 

[FWAAA]

Perhaps you are right about the losses, I still think that the showing of losses was intentional. With all their labor agreements open what benifit would the company have had at this point in time showing a profit?

How about stock that would easily be worth 6-10 times its current price of $6.55 if AMR showed healthy profits like DL, UA, CO and US? That would be worth an extra $8 billion or more in market cap. So the execs of AMR are manufacturing an illusory loss at a cost of $8 billion or more in stock value? Seriously? Just to keep you down?

The day AA rammed the concessions up your behind, the stock closed at $5/sh (hence the $5/sh option price). In January, 2007, it peaked at $41/sh. At that time, the current intrinsic value of the options granted to the represented employees was worth, in the aggregate, $1.26 billion. If AMR had posted a 2010 profit similar to Delta, the shareholders (including some of your union colleagues) would be worth probably $8 billion more than they are.

In all seriousness, public companies whose financials are audited report profit and loss to shareholders, the SEC and other stakeholders according to the rules of accrual accounting. I'm not an accountant but I know enough about accounting to know that AMR didn't make up its $471 million loss in 2010.

And there aren't any "optional" expense items that make it possible to manufacture a loss where profit should be. In previous posts you've listed the ones you think contribute to "fake" losses, but they simply don't. In most cases, prepayment of expenses lowers the cash balance but expenses cannot be recognized under the accrual rules until they're due. AMR can't pay its 2011 bills in 2010 and reduce its 2010 income. Bills not due until 2011 will reduce 2011 income. That's the whole point of accrual accounting: revenue is recognized and expenses are accounted for according the the objective rules of accounting.

I know you're fond of posting that the securities fraud laws only apply to companies that overstate their profits, but that is not the case. Under Sarbanes–Oxley, Arpey and Horton face 20 years for signing fraudulent financial statements. Do you really believe that keeping 10,000 maintenance personnel underpaid is a high enough priority that Arpey and Horton would risk imprisonment by cooking the books?

Not unlike eight years ago, you refuse to concede facts when they don't support your conspiratorial theories. I don't suggest that you believe what I write. I'm of the opinion that you need to engage accountants to educate you and the other negotiators (in case others share the semi-delusional views that AMR manipulates the income statement to avoid paying fare wages) about accounting. Further, if they're competent, they should be able to recognize the fraud that you allege. If you could show fraud, I'm certain that the SEC (and the APA along with the APFA) would be very interested. I would not sit still if my negotiating team thought that the employer's books did not reflect reality. Fortunately, the negotiating team in my union aren't wasting time questioning the employer's assertions that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

 

[eolesen]

I'm of the opinion that you need to engage accountants to educate you and the other negotiators (in case others share the semi-delusional views that AMR manipulates the income statement to avoid paying fare wages) about accounting. Further, if they're competent, they should be able to recognize the fraud that you allege. If you could show fraud, I'm certain that the SEC (and the APA along with the APFA) would be very interested.

Now there's a thought. But you'll notice that it's not the union making claims of "cooking the books".... it's a few individuals.

 

[strikeforce]

Bob I have to agree with you about the losses being intentional. The other airlines turned a profit and AA was the only one that showed a loss!!!!!!!!!! This is not coincidence. As far as some of the people here that are buying into the line verses ao arguement. If the only issue was where you worked determined how much an individual makes then the other airlines Delta,UA,US,CON and NWA could have done that pretty easy during bankruptcy,but they chose not implement those rules under bankruptcy. Delta had no union for the mechanics and would have had an even easier time to do so if it had chosen,but they did'nt. One thing that we might want to think about is that the carriers like SWA are point to point airlines and not hub and spoke like the others. I'm not taking sides just pointing out some facts. Signing your name to something on the line or in the hangar to me is taking the same risk. Oh by the way I am 100% in favor of a geo pay for the people in a high cost of living area. Instead of falling into the trap of line verses ao that the company and the twu international tries to do,why don't we work together like we should be.

Show me where the Line has benefited by sticking with OH.

I'm not disputing the fact that Line and OH hold the same responsibility as far as the work. All I'm trying to convey is that Line ops is more critical to AA's ops than OH. Therefore, Line is more valuable and more of a necessity to their ops than OH. No different than how valuable the Heating and Air guy is to you when you most need it. There's a cost factor to that service. @ SWA & UPS it's $45-51 per hour. @ AA it's been $33. Therefore, a Line premium of $10 per hour over OH is certainly not out of the question. The TWU, because they believe all mechanics should be paid the same, will not propose this disparity because it will not fly with the masses. The disparity in the current proposal is .55 + GEO.

 

[odie01]

Show me where the Line has benefited by sticking with OH.

I'm not disputing the fact that Line and OH hold the same responsibility as far as the work. All I'm trying to convey is that Line ops is more critical to AA's ops than OH. Therefore, Line is more valuable and more of a necessity to their ops than OH. No different than how valuable the Heating and Air guy is to you when you most need it. There's a cost factor to that service. @ SWA & UPS it's $45-51 per hour. @ AA it's been $33. Therefore, a Line premium of $10 per hour over OH is certainly not out of the question. The TWU, because they believe all mechanics should be paid the same, will not propose this disparity because it will not fly with the masses. The disparity in the current proposal is .55 + GEO.

Strike,
What is the solution here? What would you like to see happen without solidarity on the line, and for that matter overhaul? How can we get you guys the ten dollars line premium you are requesting without the help of you fellow mechanics, that are satisfied with the status quo with pay, benefits, and UNION? I agree with what you are saying, and their are allot of ex line guys here in OH that agree, but until we get a union that can lead, were pissing up a rope. It's time for a fresh start with a new union, this horse we've been riding is ready for the glue factory.

 

[odie01]

The debate between line and OH is valid, but let's not forget about the third party work that is going on, and will continue to ramp up according to Reem. AA would like OH mechanics to work on their planes at Timco labor rates, and perform third party work. Not going to happen. Don't forget about TAESL at AFW, AA is probably getting their engines overhauled for free, if you add up all the third party work, IE; CAL, FEDEX, US AIR, UPS, RR, and several other brand X airlines.

 

[strikeforce]

The debate between line and OH is valid, but let's not forget about the third party work that is going on, and will continue to ramp up according to Reem. AA would like OH mechanics to work on their planes at Timco labor rates, and perform third party work. Not going to happen. Don't forget about TAESL at AFW, AA is probably getting their engines overhauled for free, if you add up all the third party work, IE; CAL, FEDEX, US AIR, UPS, RR, and several other brand X airlines.

I'm not exactly sure what the answer is. Believe me I've never worked OH and certainly understand OH contributions to AA are tremendous because AA can somewhat control the costs, besides bringing in revenue for the airline to offset these costs, and therefore continue keeping OH in house. Nobody on this site wants OH to go away. It saves jobs! But, the question is at what hourly cost will the airline finally say enough and farm OH out. Can the company afford to pay Line $45-51 per hour and pay OH the same? If it can then why did the other legacy airlines farm out OH? And if it can why didn't the TWU present wages similar to SWA or UPS to AA? Why short change OH or LINE, or Both? Where's Bob Owens on this one?

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

strikeforce you make some really good points.

There is a number- and I would guess that only AA's senior managers know it- where it becomes more economical for the airline to outsource overhaul instead of keeping it in-house. The sad reality is that if the TWU were actually to succeed in getting something like "restore and more" it wouldn't last long, as thousands of jobs would be eliminated.

There's a fine balance between getting a good deal for the overhaul guys and pushing AA to outsource. For the sake of many of you and your peers I hope the work stays in the US.

 

[787nightmare]

Worst case senerio & not too far fetched.....AA requests to be released & does...."Are YOU ready to walk in 30 days?"
How many people have the nads to walk? This is the real deal...forget about Buick's and Cadillacs, time to walk the walk friends!

And that...is what I'm waiting to see!
But, like I've said over and over...ain't gonna happen with the TWU.
WHY???......because TULE will be non-union is less than 30 days.
Guaranteed.

 

[787nightmare]

Under the proposal a BASE AMT working days would max out at $39.83. What you earn would vary depending on where and when you work. Work midnights you get $2.33, which is still less than the standard 10% that most night shift workers get. Work on the Line or weekends in the base and you get $0.55 more on top of that. Live in a high cost city and you can get as much as $1.25 more.

2.33/hr bump for midnights...you're getting close(about time).
.55c line/wkends...still way off the mark.
1.25/hr for high cost city....try more like 3-4.oo/hr, now you're getting closer.

Nice try. But falls a bit short in my estimation.
However, on top of of the 39.83/hr....you eclipsed Boeings deal.(our base top-out for AMTi is37.07, + 1.12(both)a/p tix, 2nd sh +.75, 6 yr top out-which is pure BS)
Of course that would depend on pretax healthcare contributions,etc.(we're zero cost still-which is huge. That'll change next contract. As will no pension for new hires.)IMO.

 

[Hopeful]

strikeforce you make some really good points.

There is a number- and I would guess that only AA's senior managers know it- where it becomes more economical for the airline to outsource overhaul instead of keeping it in-house. The sad reality is that if the TWU were actually to succeed in getting something like "restore and more" it wouldn't last long, as thousands of jobs would be eliminated.

There's a fine balance between getting a good deal for the overhaul guys and pushing AA to outsource. For the sake of many of you and your peers I hope the work stays in the US.

And there is a most certain way to get 0% unemployment in this country....PAY EVERYONE MINIMUM WAGE...unless, of course, you are an executive!
Again, if the company wants to overhaul OVERHAUL....then come out and propose it so people may know exactly where they stand.
Stop all this meida driven PR bull crap and put their proposals in writing!

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob I have to agree with you about the losses being intentional. The other airlines turned a profit and AA was the only one that showed a loss!!!!!!!!!! This is not coincidence. As far as some of the people here that are buying into the line verses ao arguement. If the only issue was where you worked determined how much an individual makes then the other airlines Delta,UA,US,CON and NWA could have done that pretty easy during bankruptcy,but they chose not implement those rules under bankruptcy. Delta had no union for the mechanics and would have had an even easier time to do so if it had chosen,but they did'nt. One thing that we might want to think about is that the carriers like SWA are point to point airlines and not hub and spoke like the others. I'm not taking sides just pointing out some facts. Signing your name to something on the line or in the hangar to me is taking the same risk. Oh by the way I am 100% in favor of a geo pay for the people in a high cost of living area. Instead of falling into the trap of line verses ao that the company and the twu international tries to do,why don't we work together like we should be.

I agree that signing ones name carries the same risk, you carry that risk even if you dont get license pay.

I agree that we have to put the Line vs AO BS behind us but some of the issues coming up here should have come up a long time ago. People working weekends and shifts have never been properly compensated, and the reason was pretty clear, the majority of the people in AO and those who made it to Days on the line, which greatly outnumbered those forced to work undesirable shifts would not push for it. It was pure "I got mine" and the leadership (most of whom had the seniority to avoid those shifts as well) never made any attempt to correct that.

While majority rules in a union if you ever want unity the wishes , needs and desires of the minority must be given attention as well. Thats where leadership comes in. Leadership has to speak to the majority to insure that the majority doesnt trample over the minority and cause divisions. Might doesnt make right, it only makes winners and losers. The majority has to realize that compromise is the price that must be paid if they desire unity. Its unrealistic to expect the minority to support the majority if their needs are not addressed, especially if those needs are economic. This is a concept that for many years the leadership that came out of Tulsa (Yingst, Burchette, Wilson) simply could not grasp, their legacy was a deeply divided membership. At one point in 2009 in an Article 12 Subcommittee meeting Luis said right in front of the company basically that since I was from a "little local" my opinion didnt matter. Not exactly an attitude that fosters unity. The leadership we see out of Tulsa now seems to have a much better grasp of this concept. The fact is they inherited and still carry the big hammer but they dont swing it around and are willing to consider the little guys perspective.

If you work undesirable hours there should be a meaningful benifit to compensate for the negative impact of working those hours. People who work such hours tend to suffer a long list of ailments, psycological and physical.

With the company now demanding that ao go to the same type of scheduling as the line ao now looks at having to work weekends differently. many people in ao relocated specifically for the normality that having weekends off and not working midnights provide. We've always had to deal with those schedules, outside in all types of weather (another consideration) and do so with a premium of between less than 2% for a guy on days or afts working Sat/Sun to around 5% for a guy on nights. At one point, back in 2003, the President of Tulsa was pushing to trade the line premium for an extra holiday, another example of poor leadership attempting to exploit majority rule and divide the membership even further.

I have enough seniority where I dont have to work nights but I think night shift premium (Line and AO)should at the very least be 10% as it is in many industries, except Aviation, (because airline workers and their leaders at other carriers were just as self centered as they were here).

The offer on the table does start to address these things.

 

[DallasConehead]

snip

At one point the President of Tulsa was pushing to trade the line premium for an extra holiday, another example of poor leadership.