TWU negotiations.........what?

[Rogallo]

Very good and true post. It is the same on the line.

 

[Bob Owens]

From what I understand, the company wants a "no cost contract". So if we get back the retire medical, what would we trade to get it.

This is the sentiment we face from some of the committee members and the International.

What do we trade to get what we want? What we have always traded to get what we want, OUR LABOR!!!

You, and others, assume that our labor has no value, it does and what it costs us to provide that labor has gone up and we need to do what everybody else does, pass those costs on. We have already discounted our labor by over 50% when you calculate in the benifits we have given up. Have your living expenses gone down by 50%? Is the labor we provide today worth less than the labor we provided 10 years ago?

There is no reason why we should not be getting at least what we were getting in 2003, before the concessions. Per worker we bring in more than $100,000 more per year than we did in 2001. We cant help the fact that the company cant control their spending on non-labor expenses.

We need to get our share of that extra $100k that we produce!! Zero cost contrcat??!! Is that realistic? When we have zero cost families and living expenses then you can have zero cost contracts, management doesnt work under zero-cost contracts , why should we?

 

[iluvaa]

Hey Bob read the 2 prior post :blink:

 

[Bob Owens]

Very good and true post. It is the same on the line.

I've worked the line both union and non-union, the amount of down time was the same. Could AA get away with less mechanics on the line? Not at these pay rates. They still havent realized that threats dont work and a mechanics state of mind has a huge effect on how well he produces and how intensely he dives into a job. AA insists on paying us half pay, they should expect to hire twice as many mechanics to get half as much done.

Their call.

 

[chris perry]

I've worked the line both union and non-union, the amount of down time was the same. Could AA get away with less mechanics on the line? Not at these pay rates. They still havent realized that threats dont work and a mechanics state of mind has a huge effect on how well he produces and how intensely he dives into a job. AA insists on paying us half pay, they should expect to hire twice as many mechanics to get half as much done.

Their call.

I just had this conversation with a suprvisor yesterday. He stated we were much more productive in days past.
I simply said we were compensated fairly then end of story. Its not going to change until management does.... They are reaping what they sowed....,the chickens have came home to roost!

 

[WorldTraveler]

From each carrier's quarterly financials, it is possible to calculate productivity

AA 38 billion ASMs , 65,000 employees (mainline only)
UA 31 billion ASMs, 42,600 employees (mainline only)
DL 59 billion ASMs, 82,800 employees (consolidated traffic and employees, includes regional carriers) - note combining these statistics actually harms DL in this calculation since regional carrier operations involve more take-offs and landings and shorter stage lengths than mainline operations and are thus less efficient in generating ASMs....
still DL and UA have fairly similar producitivty... while AA is about 20% less effiicient than DL and UA.

Even if you consider the greater amount of in-house maintenance AA does, the productivity disadvantage at AA is easy to see.

It also explains why AA people feel like they are not making more than their peers at other airlines... often they are not... but there are more AA employees necessary to produce the same amount of capacity.

The 15% cost disadvantage AA has is directly tied to AA's productivity disadvantage.

It should be clear that if AA employees want to improve their earnings, the number of people on the payroll has to go down.

 

[TWU informer]

Who's job is it to correct the over staffed calculations just posted?

TWU/APA/APFA all gave concessions to save jobs. And now you post calculations that we are overstaffed compared to the competition.

Who runs the Airline and Staffing? The Union Leaders or Company Management?

TWU gave up 50 years of benefits to "save the jobs". AA accpeted millions in Tulsa base Vision 2025 money to save jobs? City of Tulsa adn the State of Oklahoma offered and built a new fabric hangar and put Carmine Romano's name on it to save jobs. It appears to me that AA Management and the Unions are more interested in saving jobs than running the most efficient airline. So those numbers do not suprise me one bit.

Who do you blame for that though? And who should sacrifice if that type of airline management is failing? I will guarantee you Bob Crandall would have never managed in such stupid directions.

 

[WorldTraveler]

these numbers are all computed by TOTAL employment and total ASMs. Obviously, some work groups are more productive than others. It is also quite likely that some labor groups are not as far from being competitive with the rest of the industry as others are.

But if either the union or AA accepted reduced compensation or concessions in return for saving jobs, then that is part of the problem. Given salary and benefit costs combined, you cannot cut salaries by 10% and expect to have the same costs you would have if you had 10% fewer people at the original salaries.

The simple fact is that AA has - and has had for quite some time - more employees producing less ASMs than other airlines on a comparable basis... the overall CASM difference demonstrates it regardless if some employees are lower paid than their peers at other airlines.

 

[Hopeful]

these numbers are all computed by TOTAL employment and total ASMs. Obviously, some work groups are more productive than others. It is also quite likely that some labor groups are not as far from being competitive with the rest of the industry as others are.

But if either the union or AA accepted reduced compensation or concessions in return for saving jobs, then that is part of the problem. Given salary and benefit costs combined, you cannot cut salaries by 10% and expect to have the same costs you would have if you had 10% fewer people at the original salaries.

The simple fact is that AA has - and has had for quite some time - more employees producing less ASMs than other airlines on a comparable basis... the overall CASM difference demonstrates it regardless if some employees are lower paid than their peers at other airlines.

Hence, AA should have shrunk to profitability a long time ago, and maybe today, we would not be in the situation we are in.

 

[The Goose]

... snip

The simple fact is that AA has - and has had for quite some time - more employees producing less ASMs than other airlines on a comparable basis... the overall CASM difference demonstrates it regardless if some employees are lower paid than their peers at other airlines.

This was set in place as pandering to the TWU by the company in 2003.

The bean counters have no intention of paying more than "X" amount for maintenance and all attendant costs (wages, benefits, etc.). It's been left to the TWU to maximize their dues income while holding to this maximum costs as dictated by the company, therefore the concessionary TA we have before us. Pay, benefit, and workrule concessions are fine with this so-called "union" as long as their dues income isn't touched.

I believe, for all the good they've done the membership, the TWU is due a 50% "concession" in their dues collections - let Little see if he can pick up the lost 50% from the company.

We needn't go to the "whorehouse" to receive mistreatment paying $40 per month in dues - we could be receiving the same for free straight from the company without a middleman such as the TWU.

 

[Bob Owens]

From each carrier's quarterly financials, it is possible to calculate productivity

AA 38 billion ASMs , 65,000 employees (mainline only)
UA 31 billion ASMs, 42,600 employees (mainline only)
DL 59 billion ASMs, 82,800 employees (consolidated traffic and employees, includes regional carriers) - note combining these statistics actually harms DL in this calculation since regional carrier operations involve more take-offs and landings and shorter stage lengths than mainline operations and are thus less efficient in generating ASMs....
still DL and UA have fairly similar producitivty... while AA is about 20% less effiicient than DL and UA.

Even if you consider the greater amount of in-house maintenance AA does, the productivity disadvantage at AA is easy to see.

It also explains why AA people feel like they are not making more than their peers at other airlines... often they are not... but there are more AA employees necessary to produce the same amount of capacity.

The 15% cost disadvantage AA has is directly tied to AA's productivity disadvantage.

It should be clear that if AA employees want to improve their earnings, the number of people on the payroll has to go down.

Your figures would be fine if all things were equal, which they are not. At the very least you would have to add in what UA and DL pay to vendors, and how many employees those vendors have before any sort of comparasion is made. Other carriers outsourced most of their overhaul, eliminating thousands of workers in the process, while it saves on labor costs is has not been proven to lower total costs,the work still has to be done, in fact at UAL maintenance costs went up after they outsourced.

Other factors such as the 3P work distort the numbers as well. As AA workers get paid to generate 3P revenue they dont produce any ASMs, so this would make AA workers appear less productive.

AA has actually increased the percentage of work they do in house over the last six years, they didnt have to, they have around 1800 workers that they could layoff at any time because they dont have system protection.

So if you want a better figure to see how AA is doing now compared to how they were doing six years ago , which is really the only fair comparasion you can make, look at how much more revenue AA is taking in per employee than they were back then. In 2009 they were taking in over $100,000 more per employee, and thats with bringing more work in house!! If AAs CASMS are not competative you have to look somewhere else for the cause because to date nobody has proven that doing the work in house is more costly to the end product than outsourcing. Sure the labor costs are higher but that doesnt tell the whole story and no conclusions can be drawn because of all the variables and differences in business plans.

For some reason I think that you knew that but just wanted to see how far your spin would go.

Like I said earlier AA could have outsourced at least 1300 more jobs by simply not calling people back or laying off those without system protection, they didnt, they chose to do it in house because even though it drives up labor costs it lowers what they would have paid if they sent it out.

 

[the cave]

This topic of TWU negotiations is somewhat oxymoronic.

With Videtich clamping down and not allowing any direct real negotiating between our supposed negotiating committee and the company, its all on Videtich for the two years of no retro pay that we are going to get screwed out of.

From the ridiculous black and silver uniforms that he himself hand picked and will never have to wear to the his Tiger Woods behavior towards secretaries, nothing should surprise anyone by the actions from the TWU Int’l.

It’s all on Videtich for the lack of language for DFWH (which will be covered in some form of LOA) allowing whatever the company wants.

It’s all on Videtich for the creation of the SMA’s, another 20% of the workforce that will get screwed by RIFing lowest time AMT’s. Sure they
won’t have to hit the street but I hope they like their new classification and pay.

It’s all on Videtich that the below age fifty workers will have their retiree medical abolished (a plan that employees have been paying into for twenty years) with the company saving millions.

It’s all on Videtich for the ASM eagle cap language increase(which will have everlasting effects that we will feel in years to come).

It’s all on Videtich that he used a 5th grader while helping the company write some weakest article language I’ve ever read. Don are smarter than a 5th grader?

This TA is by far and away a worse overall agreement even compared to the 03 concessions package. The 03 package basically was a major hit in the pocketbook. This TA is total decimation of our contract with another free two years to drag it out.


With a few puppet presidents, the Don will do anything.

WOW!!!! You guys shouldn't upset his holiness. His holiness after all is looking out for you and your family. I also wonder if his holiness could look everyone in the eye and tell them that he would be more than happy to swap salary and benefits that he has now for what they are trying to cram down our throats.

 

[chris perry]

From each carrier's quarterly financials, it is possible to calculate productivity

AA 38 billion ASMs , 65,000 employees (mainline only)
UA 31 billion ASMs, 42,600 employees (mainline only)
DL 59 billion ASMs, 82,800 employees (consolidated traffic and employees, includes regional carriers) - note combining these statistics actually harms DL in this calculation since regional carrier operations involve more take-offs and landings and shorter stage lengths than mainline operations and are thus less efficient in generating ASMs....
still DL and UA have fairly similar producitivty... while AA is about 20% less effiicient than DL and UA.

Even if you consider the greater amount of in-house maintenance AA does, the productivity disadvantage at AA is easy to see.

It also explains why AA people feel like they are not making more than their peers at other airlines... often they are not... but there are more AA employees necessary to produce the same amount of capacity.

The 15% cost disadvantage AA has is directly tied to AA's productivity disadvantage.

It should be clear that if AA employees want to improve their earnings, the number of people on the payroll has to go down.

You could start with DFW hiring two managers for one slot because he isnt qualified to hold the position. ARE you?
Just one more example of excess at AA it all counts in the disadvange of labor costs!!

This company is full of excess baggage, we now have more management than I have ever seen in 19 3/4 years....plus a few consultants to boot.

Productivity will only improve when attitudes change,so far I see nothing in this contract to improve it.....

 

[comatose]

WOW!!!! You guys shouldn't upset his holiness. His holiness after all is looking out for you and your family. I also wonder if his holiness could look everyone in the eye and tell them that he would be more than happy to swap salary and benefits that he has now for what they are trying to cram down our throats.

Looking out for my family....right. I'll be looking out for his family. Maybe, I'll sell them a couch.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

You could start with DFW hiring two managers for one slot because he isnt qualified to hold the position. ARE you?
Just one more example of excess at AA it all counts in the disadvange of labor costs!!

This company is full of excess baggage, we now have more management than I have ever seen in 19 3/4 years....plus a few consultants to boot.

Productivity will only improve when attitudes change,so far I see nothing in this contract to improve it.....

Chris you are dead on. Money is a motivator! We don't need more management and consultants, all we need is a good contract. They haven't figured that out yet!!