TWU Negotiations A Failed Strategy

[Duke787]

Weren't you advocating a Yes vote on the TA?

If you voted YES wasn't that a clear indication of what you as a mechanic felt you were worth?

Whose fault is that?

As a mechanic I saw the TA as a degredation of the profession, the creation of another subclass of mechanics, division by age, and grossly inadequate compensation. Have you had a change of heart? If the TA had passed would it be completely the TWUs fault or would the mechanics who voted YES be at least partly to blame for ruining the profession?

Like Odie says, "you get what you fight for", if you wont fight now how likely is it that you would fight with a new union?

My feelings for the TA, have nothing to do with the fact that the TWU has just made it possible for FSC's to transfer into maint and go to the top of the pay scale with NO EXPERIANCE. An Airline mechanic who never turned a wrench on a airplane before, never signed anything off before, never inspected anything before, never changed a tire...etc....etc will be inspecting 777s flying for 14 hours over the worlds oceans, with no experiance other then putting bags in the belly. That has nothing to do with the TA.

I think I can see the next fight coming over seniority, I'm sure the former FSCs are going to want to do away with occupational seniority, and just go with company time, kind of like what Gilboy advocated when he was a JR mech.

 

[AANOTOK]

My feelings for the TA, have nothing to do with the fact that the TWU has just made it possible for FSC's to transfer into maint and go to the top of the pay scale with NO EXPERIANCE. An Airline mechanic who never turned a wrench on a airplane before, never signed anything off before, never inspected anything before, never changed a tire...etc....etc will be inspecting 777s flying for 14 hours over the worlds oceans, with no experiance other then putting bags in the belly. That has nothing to do with the TA.

I think I can see the next fight coming over seniority, I'm sure the former FSCs are going to want to do away with occupational seniority, and just go with company time, kind of like what Gilboy advocated when he was a JR mech.

Hey Duke, while I will not try and compare a FSC's job and responsibility to yours, just an FYI, there are a few more responsibilities for Fleet
than "putting bags in a belly".

Next time your on the line at DFW Duke, look me up, it's been awhile since I have had a chance to shake the hand of someone
"Holier than thou".

 

[TWU informer]

We did not do a survey at ORD either, Bob can you tell us what the big reasons were. Hopefully not just your person reasons, but what the membership reasons were. Thanks

Never a Survey at ORD or DFW. Maybe they just guessed at your reasons for Voting NO. Of course since they have never disclosed the results of ANY surveys, then they likely are just once again going to speak for us, pretend they know, and bluff the NMB and the Company into a belief that what they claim is indeed fact. Sound Familiar?

 

[Duke787]

Hey Duke, while I will not try and compare a FSC's job and responsibility to yours, just an FYI, there are a few more responsibilities for Fleet
than "putting bags in a belly".

Next time your on the line at DFW Duke, look me up, it's been awhile since I have had a chance to shake the hand of someone
"Holier than thou".

I mean no offense, but the job of a FSC doesn't equal aircraft maint experiance. From the FSC's I hang out with, they have more formal education then I or a lot of the mechanics I work with have. Why they stay as FSC's maybe you can answer that.

 

[Duke787]

Never at a Survey at ORD or DFW. Maybe they just guessed at your reasons for Voting NO. Of since they have never disclosed the results of any surveys, then they likely are just once again going to speak for us, pretend they know, and bluff the NMB and the Company into a belief that what they claim is indeed fact. Sound Familiar?

I'm sure the TWU knows what's best for me......... :huh:

 

[enough already]

Will we EVER get to know the breakdown of how each station voted on the unfortunate T/A? h34r:

 

[Bob Owens]

What were the reasons the TA was rejected? We never had any survey at DFW. Can you tell us Bob?

Not enough money, and more concessions.

 

[Bob Owens]

My feelings for the TA, have nothing to do with the fact that the TWU has just made it possible for FSC's to transfer into maint and go to the top of the pay scale with NO EXPERIANCE. An Airline mechanic who never turned a wrench on a airplane before, never signed anything off before, never inspected anything before, never changed a tire...etc....etc will be inspecting 777s flying for 14 hours over the worlds oceans, with no experiance other then putting bags in the belly. That has nothing to do with the TA.

I think I can see the next fight coming over seniority, I'm sure the former FSCs are going to want to do away with occupational seniority, and just go with company time, kind of like what Gilboy advocated when he was a JR mech.

Oh I see, you dont care what the job pays, you are OK with the fact that we earn around 40% less than we did eight years ago, and you didnt care that the TA included language that would create SMAs that could be put in any maintenence base and any station could be a maintenance base, you just dont want A&Ps without experience going to the line.

I'm concerned as well about the experience issue. We need to put a Junior Mechanic program back in but I dont think we should create another chart, the current AMT chart, after you adjust it for inflation is really less than the old Junior Mechanic pay rates.

 

[Frank Szabo]

My feelings for the TA, have nothing to do with the fact that the TWU has just made it possible for FSC's to transfer into maint and go to the top of the pay scale with NO EXPERIANCE. An Airline mechanic who never turned a wrench on a airplane before, never signed anything off before, never inspected anything before, never changed a tire...etc....etc will be inspecting 777s flying for 14 hours over the worlds oceans, with no experiance other then putting bags in the belly. That has nothing to do with the TA.

I think I can see the next fight coming over seniority, I'm sure the former FSCs are going to want to do away with occupational seniority, and just go with company time, kind of like what Gilboy advocated when he was a JR mech.

Obviously, you've forgotten about the 'time-in-trade' requirement before the General, Airframe, and Powerplant tests can be taken as well as the 'practical' testing aspect. I agree - there's something funny going on here but in a different way that it's beiing presented. These people are coming up with the time somewhere and being signed off to take the government proctored multiple guess tests.

As an aside, after my tour if the Navy as an ADJ (AD now, Jet Engine Mechanic) complete with various schools and experience I found that wasn't good enough for me to take the General and Powerplant for an FAA rep to sign me off - I guess I just dreamed about working the A7s. How are these people getting the supposed 'time-in-trade' to take the tests??

Does one simply have to spend some money (bribes) to take the tests?

 

[B737NG]

I'm sure the TWU knows what's best for me......... :huh:

Gilboy took it upon himself to decide what was best for the membership at ORD. That is why we never saw a survey.

 

[Duke787]

Oh I see, you dont care what the job pays, you are OK with the fact that we earn around 40% less than we did eight years ago, and you didnt care that the TA included language that would create SMAs that could be put in any maintenence base and any station could be a maintenance base, you just dont want A&Ps without experience going to the line.

I'm concerned as well about the experience issue. We need to put a Junior Mechanic program back in but I dont think we should create another chart, the current AMT chart, after you adjust it for inflation is really less than the old Junior Mechanic pay rates.

I of course would have wanted more money, but I thought making $35 plus an hour with the holidays and sick time was a good start, now it will probably be another couple of years without a pay raise and when we get one I'm sure it will be in the $35 an hour range, but with 2 years more of making $33 an hour. Lets hope you can do better this time around, and remember the negotiating committee brought that TA to us, then threatened to go on strike.

The SMA's won't be working as a line mechanic, inspecting, repairing, and signing off their own work. As I understand it they will do work then an A&P will inspect their work and sign it off. Of course I don't like it, but I think the alternative for AA is to sell off OH. I would rather see us work with the company then for the company to just sell off OH. I do advocate a separate contract for OH and line. How much are we giving up so OH doesn't have to work over Christmas week (how many planes are sitting idle for a week) weekends or holidays, how much are we giving up so line mechs can get uniforms. I prefer jeans to polyester shirts and pants. That is my opinion like it or not.

Maybe this time around with you negotiating our contract, you will negotiate more then what the company was just giving away, but until then, another couple of years of us this horrible contract. I wonder if we'll ever make up that money that we would have made with that TA, I doubt it.

 

[odie01]

Think about this, if our international officers worked as AMT's for American Airlines, were elected, and could be recalled by the locals, this POS TA would have never been brought back! The internatioanal is untouchable !! Wake up ! It's time to grow a pair, the F/A's, sad to say, have more balls than the mechanics !

 

[wirewinder]

http://www.ajc.com/business/delta-baggage-handlers-vote-746032.html

http://www.bnet.com/blog/airline-business/delta-flight-attendants-reject-unionization-following-northwest-merger/2806

Paying the TWU $600 a year to see that money going for arbitration cases for guys that should be fired, and go to political campaigns for politicians i don't agree with. Only to get a TA that the company was going to GIVE to the non union AA employees anyway. Makes me feel I'm wasting my money. Lets not forget that we pay for our stewards/executive board members to have UB days on the holidays or weekends (not all the time but it does happen every so often), and for the conventions in LAS. Lets not forget that we didn't join a union, and the union got us a job at AA. We got the job at AA and were forced to join the TWU, unless you are a FSC and you hired on as a FSC and got your A&P (no experience) and just transfer into maint. way to degrade our profession, not saying that FSC's are bad, just that in order to work at AA you have to have 3 years experiance unless you came from the ramp.

The LM-2 says that Gless made $183k, what a great deal for us..................... <_<

Duke 787, you are smarter than the average bear... you have seen and read a D of L form LM-2. That is always of some value in knowing that your union officers were paid well... by the company, generously, in black and white. Here in KC we had a former ramp serviceman go on to become the Chairman of the District Lodge #142, for which he received $218,000 yearly.
He was a backslapper in his office, but before the members, he was always quick to say, "The member is out of order!" and go on to clarify the company's position on the matter. So far, I haven't read about our base closing in Kansas City, so I wonder if there were any celebrations around the system. We lost our last 345 mechanics on 23 September, 2010, so you guys can have whatever raises we might have received. By the way, the Labor-Management form 2, 3, and 4 are available for the Pilots and Flight Attendants also, so you can see how they are paid. What is not visible is the basis of the compensation, even though all union represented employees should be hourly, it appears salaried and unaccountable. Walt.

 

[Bob Owens]

I of course would have wanted more money,,,,,, and remember the negotiating committee brought that TA to us, then threatened to go on strike.

If you are not prepared to strike for a better deal then you dont deserve one.

The SMA's won't be working as a line mechanic, inspecting, repairing, and signing off their own work. As I understand it they will do work then an A&P will inspect their work and sign it off.

Wrong, SMAs would work and sign off their own work on anything except powerplant. The new language defining a Maintenance Base in the TA was open. When the company was asked what would stop the company from inculding ORD, JFK or any other current line station with a hangar as a maintenance base his reply was "Nothing"(this happened at one of the Stores sessions). So if that contract had passed they could have declared ORD a maintenance base and staffed 20% of ORD with SMAs. They could do anything you do except run engines or sign off work on engines.

Maybe this time around with you negotiating our contract, you will negotiate more then what the company was just giving away, but until then, another couple of years of us this horrible contract. I wonder if we'll ever make up that money that we would have made with that TA, I doubt it.

We will if you grow and pair and are willing to strike if there isnt any retro.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob,

Can you provide us any recent examples of AMT's Strikes in the Airline Industry that created Retro Pay that wasn't in the Company offer prior to the strike?

Can you give us any recent example of a successful AMT Strike in the Industry?

I just don't want you and others negotiating with the company based a willingness or bluff to strike and then when they call your bluff we are all out on the street from awhile and then return for basically what was on the table to begin with. If we go out, we don't return until we get what was demanded, otherwise we wasted our time.

I can appreciate your efforts to be more militant and radical than what we have experienced in the past. But I also don't have much faith in another TWU bluff strategy that in the end makes us look like fools.

You have not showed us any proposal, you have not showed any survey results. Yet you always advocate that we be willing to strike while following a blind premise and direction. I am not willing to follow that blind leadership to that level. What exactly are you asking us to be willing to strike over? Retro? How Much? ASM's? Restore and More? Strike over what Bob? Are you planning to attempt to make history with the TWU Membership and Consitution behind you? If so this seems a drastic change from your previous opinions of the TWU, and the only thing that has changed is you are now embedded in the negotiations. I have trouble accepting that much has changed just because you have been given more authority.

Good Luck though, we will all need it.


Just Sayin....