TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[Duke787]

Not to worry guys, 6 days of training. $742 in Union dues for worst contract, FAs not even $500 for best contract.


WTF !!!!!

 

[NYer]

I realize that since the Unions did nothing to challenge the AFA/NWA ruling that our contracts are only good as long as the Carrier chooses to not file, or threaten to file C-11. That there is no requirement that an Airline be in financial distress in order to get C-11 relief from labor deals they do not like. First NWA filed with $1Billion in cash, that raised eyebrows on Wall Street, then AA filed with $5billion and not once did I hear them claim that if they didn't get relief they faced liquidation, they only claimed that they needed relief to be "Competitive", in fact they claimed that with the relief they were seeking they would be more profitable than any carrier ever was. 
 
So if we were at the top of the industry would I agree to a reduced Profit sharing for a 35% raise over two years? Yes, but your IAM agreed to no profit sharing for a bottom of the industry wage rate. 
 
 
So now we know your new mission, to go out there and sell Delta plus 7 plus 4. What our now bottom of the industry Flight attendants got. What do you care, you said you are retired, you dont have to live under it anyway and are probably looking to make sure your crappy IAMNPF gets thousands of new members. 
 
You cant qualify for a mortgage on an IAM negotiated wage rate either. Go ask your members in NY or LAX or the banks. 

 
Wow. The lack of basis in your theories are quite astonishing, then again you must know your clientele better than anyone else.
 
When any corporation or person, for that matter, files for bankruptcy the equation that allows that is not subject to cash on hand. The determining factor for a bankruptcy is debt, not cash on hand. If your debts is more than your assets, then you're on the negative and a bankruptcy may be in order.
 
You keep going back to this $5B in cash as a harbinger of some kind of argument the BK was not warranted, which is obviously not factual since a BK did take place. I understand you need to shield yourself from your erroneous statements of the BK talk being a "scare tactic," but even this argument is so thin you can clearly see through it.
 
Luckily, for those that find themselves at the bottom of the pay scales they did have that cash as it eliminated the need for Debtor-In-Possession (DIP) financing, which usually entails an immediate pay and benefits cuts. Due to that cash on hand, we were able to avoid that.
 
For someone that has spent years complaining of wages rates, you sure have a unique was of making a bottom of industry wage going to a top of industry wage very negative. It's probably because you might get there without using the "scorched earth" approach that you enthusiastically support.

 

[Overspeed]

Wow. The lack of basis in your theories are quite astonishing, then again you must know your clientele better than anyone else.
 
When any corporation or person, for that matter, files for bankruptcy the equation that allows that is not subject to cash on hand. The determining factor for a bankruptcy is debt, not cash on hand. If your debts is more than your assets, then you're on the negative and a bankruptcy may be in order.
 
You keep going back to this $5B in cash as a harbinger of some kind of argument the BK was not warranted, which is obviously not factual since a BK did take place. I understand you need to shield yourself from your erroneous statements of the BK talk being a "scare tactic," but even this argument is so thin you can clearly see through it.
 
Luckily, for those that find themselves at the bottom of the pay scales they did have that cash as it eliminated the need for Debtor-In-Possession (DIP) financing, which usually entails an immediate pay and benefits cuts. Due to that cash on hand, we were able to avoid that.
 
For someone that has spent years complaining of wages rates, you sure have a unique was of making a bottom of industry wage going to a top of industry wage very negative. It's probably because you might get there without using the "scorched earth" approach that you enthusiastically support.

What rubs a lot of us the wrong way about BK is that there were bonuses paid out, wages were cut, the airline continually mismanaged, whic in turn deepened the management/labor discord. You are correct about what drives a BK filing. Bob can't move on though.

 

[700UW]

Did nothing to challenge?
 
Man do you live in your own fantasy world?

The AFA took it to the appeals court and lost, next step would have been the Supreme Court and they only rule on cases one a term and that is even if SCOTUS would have accepted the case.
 
You know as a leader, your misinformation shows your lack of credibility there Bob.
 
And your not a lawyer and your ignorant statement that AA had $5 billion in cash so they couldnt have filed bankruptcy, couldnt be farther from the truth.
 
Chapter 11 isnt about how much cash you have, its about how much debt you owe.
 

AMR’s financial health has been eroding for years. The company has posted annual losses three years in a row, including a $471 million loss last year. It has recorded a $982 million loss through the first nine months of this year.
 
Given the airline’s shaky financial picture, speculation about an AMR bankruptcy filing had started to increase this year, spooking investors. The company’s stock price has dropped 79 percent in 2011.
 
As of Sept. 30, AMR reported $24.7 billion in assets and $29.6 billion in debt, according to a filing with the federal bankruptcy court in Manhattan. The company added that it had about $4.1 billion in cash and short-term investments that could be used to pay vendors and suppliers.
 

I know I would never have you represent me, you make stuff up, and ignore reality.

 

[NYer]

What rubs a lot of us the wrong way about BK is that there were bonuses paid out, wages were cut, the airline continually mismanaged, whic in turn deepened the management/labor discord. You are correct about what drives a BK filing. Bob can't move on though.

 
I think everyone agrees about the BK process being unfriendly to the workers and a profitable process for those that contribute towards its use.
 
That, however, doesn't take away from the fact that we must try to protect ourselves from the process as much as we can. That can only be done if we acknowledge the reality and are truthful to ourselves about the process.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Wow. The lack of basis in your theories are quite astonishing, then again you must know your clientele better than anyone else.
 
When any corporation or person, for that matter, files for bankruptcy the equation that allows that is not subject to cash on hand. The determining factor for a bankruptcy is debt, not cash on hand. If your debts is more than your assets, then you're on the negative and a bankruptcy may be in order.
 
You keep going back to this $5B in cash as a harbinger of some kind of argument the BK was not warranted, which is obviously not factual since a BK did take place. I understand you need to shield yourself from your erroneous statements of the BK talk being a "scare tactic," but even this argument is so thin you can clearly see through it.
 
Luckily, for those that find themselves at the bottom of the pay scales they did have that cash as it eliminated the need for Debtor-In-Possession (DIP) financing, which usually entails an immediate pay and benefits cuts. Due to that cash on hand, we were able to avoid that.
 
For someone that has spent years complaining of wages rates, you sure have a unique was of making a bottom of industry wage going to a top of industry wage very negative. It's probably because you might get there without using the "scorched earth" approach that you enthusiastically support.

 
 
Show us where you found your equation for filing for Chapter-11. The fact is there isn't one, and Sharon Levine stated as much. The court operates upon the assumption that the stigma of having filed for reorganization is enough of a motive to prevent corporations from filing unless their very survival is at risk. Thats same assumption once applied to individuals however after many many abuses the court abandoned that assumption but still upholds it with corporations. 
 
If anything, with a justified, legitimate filing, the determining factor is cash flow and the ability to service debt within the agreed schedule, not simply the amount of Debt. 
 
Making stuff up and lying again, just like Mark Richard did during negotiations. Funny how you sound just like him. 

 

[700UW]

Delusional.
 
http://www.turnaround.org/Publications/Articles.aspx?objectID=1784

 

[Bob Owens]

Did nothing to challenge?
 
Man do you live in your own fantasy world?
The AFA took it to the appeals court and lost, next step would have been the Supreme Court and they only rule on cases one a term and that is even if SCOTUS would have accepted the case.
 
You know as a leader, your misinformation shows your lack of credibility there Bob.
 
And your not a lawyer and your ignorant statement that AA had $5 billion in cash so they couldnt have filed bankruptcy, couldnt be farther from the truth.
 
Chapter 11 isnt about how much cash you have, its about how much debt you owe.
 
I know I would never have you represent me, you make stuff up, and ignore reality.

 
 
So why isn't it on the Supreme Courts docket? Why just drop it? Is that what we should expect with the "fighting Machinists". Oh yes, thats right, they are only willing to fight other Unions. 
 
Besides there are two ways this can be addressed, one is to have it go to the Supreme Court, and the other is to put the AFL-CIO and our COPE dollars to work and have the politicians clarify the intent of the RLA and correct the Courts erroneous assumption. I've seen articles from legal journals criticizing the decision but have not seen one defending it. So why isn't labor pushing against this? 
 
Actually you may be right, "Did nothing" was not correct, "Doing anything about it now" would be correct. IIRC the IAM did take part in a move by several Pilots groups to try and correct this a few years back, surprised you didn't bring that up, or maybe you were unaware of it, but then simply dropped it. The pilots groups are ready and willing to try again under a more realistic argument but they get no support from the AFL-CIO or any of the AFL-CIO affiliated unions, even ALPA. Basically the IAM went through the motions and presented a flawed argument. Then having failed, simply dropped it. This way they can say they tried. Instead of asking for equal protection under the law they asked for special protections. I suspect that the smaller Pilots Unions allowed the IAM to push them towards this flawed argument. The IAM doing so in a deliberate attempt to sabotage it to try and get airline workers behind a move for broader bankruptcy reform. Do I have proof? No, just a suspicion. The Pilots had Capt. Sully testify, had they made the right argument, and AFL-CIO support they may have gotten somewhere. 
 
Go ahead keep repeating what your masters tell you. Bankruptcy is about your ability to service debt, not the amount of debt. If the amount of debt becomes so large that you cant service it then you are bankrupt but just having more debt than assets doesn't make you bankrupt if you have the cash flow to service the debt. If I'm earning $100k a year and have $1million in debt that doesn't automatically make me bankrupt, in fact depending on the terms of the debt as an individual I probably would not qualify for bankruptcy, but if I'm making $50k a year and owe $20,000 due immediately I may be able to qualify for bankruptcy if the creditor demands payment. So its not the amount of debt, its the ability to service the debt. 
 
http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/bankruptcy/do-i-have-enough-debt-to-file-for-bankruptcy.html
 
Now go ahead both you an NYEr and start back peddling. Start saying that the amount is a factor, which I dont deny, but AA had no cash flow problems and the $5 billion in the bank ensured that they wouldn't.  They had no creditors pounding on their door demanding payments now, nor where they at risk of violating any covenants, in fact they had just secured loans to cover the largest aircraft order in history. 
 
So you and NYer can go ahead and support the company's fraud, their theft of our pensions, retiree medical and workrules under false pretenses as they post billions in profits but do at least come clean and admit that neither of you are truly a friend of labor like you try and sell yourselves as. You may be too stupid to realize what you are doing by NYer knows exactly what he is doing. Not sure which is worse. 
 
 


Maybe I'm not a lawyer but at least I know the difference between "Your" and "you're" and where did I say that they couldn't file because they had $5billion? 

 

[1AA]

Did nothing to challenge?
 
Man do you live in your own fantasy world?
The AFA took it to the appeals court and lost, next step would have been the Supreme Court and they only rule on cases one a term and that is even if SCOTUS would have accepted the case.
 
You know as a leader, your misinformation shows your lack of credibility there Bob.
 
And your not a lawyer and your ignorant statement that AA had $5 billion in cash so they couldnt have filed bankruptcy, couldnt be farther from the truth.
 
Chapter 11 isnt about how much cash you have, its about how much debt you owe.
 
I know I would never have you represent me, you make stuff up, and ignore reality.
 
 
 

What?? No elitist comment from a nobody wanna be whatever it is you meddle into?

 

[700UW]

No cash flow problems?
 
You are certainly living in your own fantasy world.
 
You are clueless on balance sheets, bankruptcy and history.
 
I like the pic of you and gary.
 

 

[Bob Owens]

Delusional.
 
http://www.turnaround.org/Publications/Articles.aspx?objectID=1784

Thats your proof? 

 

[700UW]

You want proof?

Go read the court transcripts from all the hearings and the petition and the POR, there is your proof,and I have already proved the balance sheet was in the negative as was the losses.

 

[Bob Owens]

No cash flow problems?
 
You are certainly living in your own fantasy world.
 
You are clueless on balance sheets, bankruptcy and history.
 
I like the pic of you and gary.
 
 

Like I said, so stupid that you think you are pro labor even when defending a company using Bankruptcy to screw their workers. I guess in your mind its a miracle that they went from $5 billion in cash to $10 billion in less time than it probably takes you to read the Sunday Comics. 

 

[Bob Owens]

You want proof?
Go read the court transcripts from all the hearings and the petition and the POR, there is your proof,and I have already proved the balance sheet was in the negative as was the losses.

You proved nothing, you're (your?) a moron who can't see whats right in front of you, you have to ask your betters what it is. You are someone who recommends a bottom of the industry contract with a company earning billions. You think Delta plus 7 plus 4 is Industry leading. 

 

[700UW]

Actually you are wrong, I never reccomened the PMUS TA and I actually spoke out against it.
 
Keep up the misinformation Bob.
 
You had the same lawyer we did, you were the one running around saying Chapter 11 is a threat, they are not going to do it.
 
Your track record is stellar.
 
The laws are the laws, would you like it to like 1983 when you had zero protections in Chapter 11 if you were covered under a CBA?