TWU Conference call

[TWU informer]

See this is exactly what confuses me you list all these groups who have screwed one another yet you call it the" Save the Profession' To me save the profession is anyone who has fought for the removal of the TWU from being our representative not the people who voted for the split the membership deals of the past. the" Ive Got Mine" group that you now claim is ok by you, so you see to me it is you who have taken the IF YOU CAN"T BEAT'EM JOIN'EM group not I as you like to say.

I am sorry you are confused. Because I am not.
The "Save the Profession" group is the those that are fighting to remove to the TWU while harboring a false belief that the name of the union change is going to change cowards into militant fighters. Those that once again claim a filing is near when the cards are clearly short. So the bluffs of the TWU carry over into the Organizers of AMP method of operation and this is not change but more of the same.

It would also be worth pointing out that my contemporaries and I did not vote but for the later of all that you have listed and I did not vote at all in 2001 because the outcome was certain as I recall more than 80% yes. The way I see this is that the majority of folks who support AMP have been consistent in our belief that the TWU is the problem and until they are replaced the same scenario will play out over and over again and we do not believe Ive Got Mine is ok even if it benefits only us.

I did not accuse you of voting for all of those contracts, yet your defense of the fact that Union Membership sellouts have been voting on contracts for 25+ years is that you and your contemporaries didnt vote for them. ( Maybe it is the fact that there are more sellout voters than not in existence and that is why you don't have enough cards to file, which confirms my point not yours). It isn't all about you and I never accused you of voting for the listed groups contracts. You asked for examples and I gave them. And your defense to that is you didn't vote for them. Weak arguement at best. Read through once again very carefully and post the quote that claims I said YOU VOTED FOR THOSE PAST AGREEMENTS. Are you dillusional or on a guilt trip about something? Because this becomes more than once that you have made a false claim of my intentions regarding a post here.

To your backhanded compliment that I deflected your claim, I would say simply that you cannot accuse a organization of something and not have those accusations extend to said groups leadership. now I am not completely clear as to whom you believe the Save the Profession group is but I honestly believe that alot of your comments where pointed at AMP because as far as I know we are the only group out there fighting against the status quo I am very comfortable letting those reading decide who is spinning here.

I believe you should be clear now on who I refer to as the "Save the Profession" group. I will make this point though, if my negative comments about AMP extend to the groups leadership, then I think the overhaul bashing by the supporters of AMP should also reflect as the groups position and intentions. Unless of course you admit that the leadership of AMP is already leading in a different direction than the supporters. Regardless of your opinion, it is clear that AMP supporters on this forum clearly would shaft the overhaul group for personal gain. And it is far more than one or two. It also worthy to note that they are not shy about letting that be known, and are not in the poltical game to just cards signed. But none the less they are AMP supporters or ogranizers and have made no bones about their views on overhaul. It is clear you are the one spinning and posting your willingness to allow the readers to determine isn't going to change that fact either.

Finally I have never stated that I do not a large ego I believe anyone who gets involved in trying to fight the company the union and the goverment at once had better have a big ego but I believe most would agree that in comparision to yours and a few others who were leaders in the AMFA drive mine would be considered fairly small.

Looks like 14 I's I hope thats not to many crap that makes 15
.

NO VOTE NO PEACE !!!!!

Agreed and point taken on the Ego Comment

 

[xUT]

While this forum bitches and moans.....I visted ContractorTalk.com and these contractors/union workers talk about.....

You shouldn't make your company money, your company should make you money...

I was talking with someone I know yesterday, just chit chatting about my schedule for the day. He made a comment, that I should have started my day earlier because "I should be making my company money." To which I replied, "No, my company should be making me money."

You see, you can't be everywhere and you can't do all things. This person I was speaking with is a car mechanic. He is an employee. I explained to him that when he is working he is making the company he works for money. I explained to him that if the manager of the business, presumably the owner, is properly managing the business, then the business is making the owner money. I explained that the owner need not process every order, that the sales people employed by the company can handle that. I explained that the owner need not wrench back in the shop that this was his job and he is making the owner money. I explained that it is the managers job to create the plan, recruit, hire, train and manage.

If the ground work is laid and the proper personell are working that plan, then the business is working for the owner, not the owner working for the business.

So what comment about my schedule did I make that prompted this conversation. He asked what time I started the day. I explained I dropped off my kids at 10:30 am and showed up to the job about 11 am. He seemed shocked I showed up "so late", in his words, which is what prompted the conversation. I explained to him that at 6 am I was making dozens of phone calls to ensure the materials, and dumpster was showing up on time. I also checked the weather to make sure we were safe to tear off the roof without risk of flooding the building. While I was taking care of my fatherly duties my workers were working my plan. They know what I expect of them, I need not be there to tell them every minute detail. If I need to remind them of every minute detail then I have failed as a manager and either my plan is a bad one or they are the wrong people to be working for the company.

The business should be able to make money with out the constant involvement of the business manager. The business should be making YOU money, not the other way around.

IF only our AA managers would do their job to plan, recruit, hire, train, and manage the business like this guy!!!!!!!!!

Is this your business?
B)

 

[767 mechanic]

I am sorry you are confused. Because I am not.
The "Save the Profession" group is the those that are fighting to remove to the TWU while harboring a false belief that the name of the union change is going to change cowards into militant fighters. Those that once again claim a filing is near when the cards are clearly short. So the bluffs of the TWU carry over into the Organizers of AMP method of operation and this is not change but more of the same.



I did not accuse you of voting for all of those contracts, yet your defense of the fact that Union Membership sellouts have been voting on contracts for 25+ years is that you and your contemporaries didnt vote for them. ( Maybe it is the fact that there are more sellout voters than not in existence and that is why you don't have enough cards to file, which confirms my point not yours). It isn't all about you and I never accused you of voting for the listed groups contracts. You asked for examples and I gave them. And your defense to that is you didn't vote for them. Weak arguement at best. Read through once again very carefully and post the quote that claims I said YOU VOTED FOR THOSE PAST AGREEMENTS. Are you dillusional or on a guilt trip about something? Because this becomes more than once that you have made a false claim of my intentions regarding a post here.



I believe you should be clear now on who I refer to as the "Save the Profession" group. I will make this point though, if my negative comments about AMP extend to the groups leadership, then I think the overhaul bashing by the supporters of AMP should also reflect as the groups position and intentions. Unless of course you admit that the leadership of AMP is already leading in a different direction than the supporters. Regardless of your opinion, it is clear that AMP supporters on this forum clearly would shaft the overhaul group for personal gain. And it is far more than one or two. It also worthy to note that they are not shy about letting that be known, and are not in the poltical game to just cards signed. But none the less they are AMP supporters or ogranizers and have made no bones about their views on overhaul. It is clear you are the one spinning and posting your willingness to allow the readers to determine isn't going to change that fact either.




Agreed and point taken on the Ego Comment

You are the one trying to spin things. You try and say that all the line guys are against o/h and vice versus which is nothing more than a lie. I am at AFW and have no grudge against anybody working the line. They have their place in this system just as o/h does. You don't care about anybody but your self,this has been prooven in your statements and your vote. In one post you are for the twu and in the very next post you are for AMP. I do believe that the only person that is delusional around here is you. You have prooven your nick name of WAFFLE BOY in your posts. You have not changed from your time at AFW. Why don't you get off the forums while you have some creditability. You are losing that by every post that you make. Even the person that does not visit this site frequently can see how you flip flop. Maybe we need a new nickname for you FLIP FLOP instead of Waffle BOY. You have never been able to take the knock out punch when needed,so go sit in the corner and suck your thumb.

 

[aapitbull]

I am sorry you are confused. Because I am not.
The "Save the Profession" group is the those that are fighting to remove to the TWU while harboring a false belief that the name of the union change is going to change cowards into militant fighters. Those that once again claim a filing is near when the cards are clearly short. So the bluffs of the TWU carry over into the Organizers of AMP method of operation and this is not change but more of the same

We are not harboring any false beliefs change is always possible it is only those who give up that allow the weak to carry the day, this very week after nearly ten years of hunting a few brave men killed osama bin laden so hard work can make a difference. as far as the filing goes we have been clear we need about 1500 cards to finish what was started so many years ago and at present there are more than 3000 previous card signers yet to sign a AMP card so it is certainly possible we can get the cards. You know that telling the union and AA what we think the number of cards needed to file is not in our best interest and we will not tip our hand when it comes to this number.

I did not accuse you of voting for all of those contracts, yet your defense of the fact that Union Membership sellouts have been voting on contracts for 25+ years is that you and your contemporaries didnt vote for them. ( Maybe it is the fact that there are more sellout voters than not in existence and that is why you don't have enough cards to file, which confirms my point not yours). It isn't all about you and I never accused you of voting for the listed groups contracts. You asked for examples and I gave them. And your defense to that is you didn't vote for them. Weak arguement at best. Read through once again very carefully and post the quote that claims I said YOU VOTED FOR THOSE PAST AGREEMENTS. Are you dillusional or on a guilt trip about something? Because this becomes more than once that you have made a false claim of my intentions regarding a post here.

I never claimed you said I voted for the sellouts of the past I was simply saying that all but the last of your sellout scenarios happened prior to my arrival on the property, your point is that you will not be bothered with trying to change those who have soldout time and time again mine is that presently roughly 43% of title 1 where not employeed by AA when all but the last of your sellouts occured and therefore must be excluded from fault, these where failures of you and your contemporaries which as we have previously discussed seem to be something you now embrace. Birdman made a excellent point when he stated that the sellouts barely passed and you know well that there are real questions as to legitimacy of the votes taken in alot of these sellouts, secoundly even if we accept the TWU line 50% either voted against our did not vote in favor of these agreements, so lets see what rough numbers say

A- Scalers 200
C- Scalers Pay for you benefits 3000
Prior to 95 Srp 5200
After 95 4100

Now lets see 4100 plus 50% of the prior to 95 group 2600 equal 6700 divided by 9400 is 73% of current employees were either not party to you sellouts or voted against or abstained from them You now claim that because of the previous sellouts by 27% of the members we should give up because they cannot be trusted to do anything but what is best for themselves well congratulations you have become the poster boy for all you claim is wrong with us. at least you have the right seniorty date for it!

I believe you should be clear now on who I refer to as the "Save the Profession" group. I will make this point though, if my negative comments about AMP extend to the groups leadership, then I think the overhaul bashing by the supporters of AMP should also reflect as the groups position and intentions. Unless of course you admit that the leadership of AMP is already leading in a different direction than the supporters. Regardless of your opinion, it is clear that AMP supporters on this forum clearly would shaft the overhaul group for personal gain. And it is far more than one or two. It also worthy to note that they are not shy about letting that be known, and are not in the poltical game to just cards signed. But none the less they are AMP supporters or ogranizers and have made no bones about their views on overhaul. It is clear you are the one spinning and posting your willingness to allow the readers to determine isn't going to change that fact either.

To the extent that the people posting here are members of our organizing group then it does reflect on the leadership of AMP and we have made it clear, that as a committee we hold no such beliefs, spliting the line and overhaul serves no purpose other than to allow the TWU to continue as our representative This line vs overhaul thing is a small debate being had on this website by you and a few others. it is not in any of our literature and it does not appear on our website it is another attempt by the TWU to divide and control the membership it is no different than the TWU telling the OSM's or Title 2 lies about our intentions should we be certified. It is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE and you have either fell victim to or are complicit in this lie I do not know which but the fact is your actions benefit the TWU plain and simple.

Finally so we are perfectly clear no one currently in office with the TWU has anything to do with the ongoing organizing drive for AMP, Bob Owens views are his own and have nothing to do with AMP!

NO VOTE NO PEACE !!!!

 

[TWU informer]

We are close to getting an agreement from AA. The sellout of individuals and the outcome of the ratification will prove my point. And you will be on the property as either the group sold out or in the group that votes to sellout. This will confirm what I am saying to be true. Then you can accurately use Bin Laden as your point man in your arguement. Good luck

 

[TWU informer]

You are the one trying to spin things. You try and say that all the line guys are against o/h and vice versus which is nothing more than a lie. I am at AFW and have no grudge against anybody working the line. They have their place in this system just as o/h does. You don't care about anybody but your self,this has been prooven in your statements and your vote. In one post you are for the twu and in the very next post you are for AMP. I do believe that the only person that is delusional around here is you. You have prooven your nick name of WAFFLE BOY in your posts. You have not changed from your time at AFW. Why don't you get off the forums while you have some creditability. You are losing that by every post that you make. Even the person that does not visit this site frequently can see how you flip flop. Maybe we need a new nickname for you FLIP FLOP instead of Waffle BOY. You have never been able to take the knock out punch when needed,so go sit in the corner and suck your thumb.

Learn to spell and communicate without the playground name calling because otherwise you are an embarrasment to us all and detremental to the "save the profession" agenda.

 

[aapitbull]

We are close to getting an agreement from AA. The sellout of individuals and the outcome of the ratification will prove my point. And you will be on the property as either the group sold out or in the group that votes to sellout. This will confirm what I am saying to be true. Then you can accurately use Bin Laden as your point man in your arguement. Good luck

The AMP drive is a attempt to stop the sellouts and as far as the ratification goes I will vote no and try to persuade others to do the same if it pits us against each other. I will have a clear conscience no matter what happens as I said at the meeting in Tulsa this is a MIM {Man In the Mirror} issue for me.

 

[odie01]

Learn to spell and communicate without the playground name calling because otherwise you are an embarrasment to us all and detremental to the "save the profession" agenda.

If you can't read 767's post because of the mis-spelled words, I'll translate.
I a nutshell it reads, "Your a FLAKE, with NO-BALLS, and zero direction!

 

[Bob Owens]

We are close to getting an agreement from AA.

We are?

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------

 

[Hopeful]

We are close to getting an agreement from AA. The sellout of individuals and the outcome of the ratification will prove my point. And you will be on the property as either the group sold out or in the group that votes to sellout. This will confirm what I am saying to be true. Then you can accurately use Bin Laden as your point man in your arguement. Good luck

I must say, informer might be on to something here. Does anyone truly believe the TWU will strike?
All the talk of getting released from mediation, 30 day cooling off.....etc.....is all rhetoric..

The TWU WILL NOT STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One way or another, there will be a contract that favors the company. The threats of outsourcing are there and the heat will be turned up.
When all is said and done, Jim Little and the int'l will get a deal to preserve union dues.
He has the power to make it happen.

 

[TWU informer]

Hopeful, keep speaking the truth and you too will be attacked by those living lala land of the intelligent minds. Burying the facts in the sand are a great strategy, just ask James C. Little and his appointees!

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful, keep speaking the truth and you too will be attacked by those living lala land of the intelligent minds. Burying the facts in the sand are a great strategy, just ask James C. Little and his appointees!

Oh i'm not worried in the least. I have been at AA long enough to know what they will and will not do. As much as I wish we would get released and into a 30 day cool down.....I just believe the TWU will never ever strike......Little will deem "the good of the membership" as the end all.

The threats will heat up and once again a substandard contract will be rammed down our throats.

 

[strikeforce]

To the extent that the people posting here are members of our organizing group then it does reflect on the leadership of AMP and we have made it clear, that as a committee we hold no such beliefs, spliting the line and overhaul serves no purpose other than to allow the TWU to continue as our representative This line vs overhaul thing is a small debate being had on this website by you and a few others. it is not in any of our literature and it does not appear on our website it is another attempt by the TWU to divide and control the membership it is no different than the TWU telling the OSM's or Title 2 lies about our intentions should we be certified. It is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE and you have either fell victim to or are complicit in this lie I do not know which but the fact is your actions benefit the TWU plain and simple.

Finally so we are perfectly clear no one currently in office with the TWU has anything to do with the ongoing organizing drive for AMP, Bob Owens views are his own and have nothing to do with AMP!

NO VOTE NO PEACE !!!!

As the creator of this Line vs. OH debate my intentions were not to bash each other, but to bring out 20 years of frustrations over several previous agreements.

The union leadership is obviously the problem here. It shouldn't come as a surprise, and I believe it's by design from the Intl that our leaders provide us minimal information, last minute T/A's, and allow dissention amongst the membership to fester. The more WE know about the inner workings of the TWU, the easier it would be to de-certify this dysfunctional organization.

Maybe I'm screwed up here, but the union is a business, and in the business of representing people, for a fee. Many years ago the TWU sold the workers at AA the goods to join their organization with the sole intention of providing US a service to substantially increase wages, benefits, and provide a safe place to work, and for aircraft mechanics enhance our craft and profession. That's what they sold us. Just like agents and brokers sell their services to athletes. For this fee, WE the membership expect the agent (TWU) to do whatever it can to increase our earnings potential, and reduce our out-of-pocket expenses. This is our expectations from the agent. This is the contract WE have with the agent (TWU). But, this hasn't been the case with the TWU.

From my perspective, the agent has spun our relationship to where WE are indebted to the union. We work for the union. Has the TWU provided us continuous employment? For the most part. Have they increased our standard of living? For the most part NO. Have they reduced our out-of-pocket expenses? NO! Have they enhanced our craft and class? NO! Have they continued to collect this fee while providing Negative results? Yes!

Just in the last 8 years.....the TWU negotiated and produced (-17.5%) x 8 yrs = (-140%) in lost earnings. Substantial increase in out-of-pocket medical/prescription/vision, and substantial reduction in vacations, premium pay, sick time, injury on duty, and varies other benefits. Just a rough estimate, but I've LOST over $100,000 in wages & benefits.

I've paid union dues of $660 per year x 8 years = $5280.

Now, can someone please give me a valid reason on why I should keep paying the TWU, as my bargaining agent?

 

[aapitbull]

As the creator of this Line vs. OH debate my intentions were not to bash each other, but to bring out 20 years of frustrations over several previous agreements.

The union leadership is obviously the problem here. It shouldn't come as a surprise, and I believe it's by design from the Intl that our leaders provide us minimal information, last minute T/A's, and allow dissention amongst the membership to fester. The more WE know about the inner workings of the TWU, the easier it would be to de-certify this dysfunctional organization.

Maybe I'm screwed up here, but the union is a business, and in the business of representing people, for a fee. Many years ago the TWU sold the workers at AA the goods to join their organization with the sole intention of providing US a service to substantially increase wages, benefits, and provide a safe place to work, and for aircraft mechanics enhance our craft and profession. That's what they sold us. Just like agents and brokers sell their services to athletes. For this fee, WE the membership expect the agent (TWU) to do whatever it can to increase our earnings potential, and reduce our out-of-pocket expenses. This is our expectations from the agent. This is the contract WE have with the agent (TWU). But, this hasn't been the case with the TWU.

From my perspective, the agent has spun our relationship to where WE are indebted to the union. We work for the union. Has the TWU provided us continuous employment? For the most part. Have they increased our standard of living? For the most part NO. Have they reduced our out-of-pocket expenses? NO! Have they enhanced our craft and class? NO! Have they continued to collect this fee while providing Negative results? Yes!

Just in the last 8 years.....the TWU negotiated and produced (-17.5%) x 8 yrs = (-140%) in lost earnings. Substantial increase in out-of-pocket medical/prescription/vision, and substantial reduction in vacations, premium pay, sick time, injury on duty, and varies other benefits. Just a rough estimate, but I've LOST over $100,000 in wages & benefits.

I've paid union dues of $660 per year x 8 years = $5280.

Now, can someone please give me a valid reason on why I should keep paying the TWU, as my bargaining agent?

There are no valid reasons to keep the TWU as your representative as informer has already pointed out they have always came bsck with sellouts and this will continue until we remove them, I can see that you have finally seen them for what they are now understand all this line vs overhaul thing being spread at ORD and here on this board is simply another way for them to maintain power nothing more. So lets put this thing to bed and stop all the attacks on each other and focus them where they should be on the TWU!!

Finally as a guy who has worked at both line and overhaul and have many friends at both places let me say this I find that there are legitimate grievances from both sides but none so large they could not be resolved fairly if we came togther as a group, in the end we must unite agaisnt our common enemy or suffer the consequences of not doing so.

NO VOTE NO PEACE!!!!!