TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[OldGuy@AA]

WATCH the healthcare coverage costs by AMR. It's a HUGE hedge for recovering raises given to you guys.

I had a conversation with Ed Wilson about the same thing during the 89 contract fiasco and was told I was full of baloney. Short sightedness has cost us dearly and will continue. I would like to also remind those of you who were here at the time that AA made RECORD profits when they asked for and got this concession from the TWU who, by the way, never admitted it was a concession. Now they give away our work rules and benefits while stating we are not taking pay cuts while the medical increases and they don't pay us (AMTs) sick time. I would love to see if we could get a restraining order on this vote and sue the TWU for lack of representation by forcing inferior benefits on us. That would be a blast to see Little Jimmy answer for that.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

In 1994/1995 the Michael Boyd Aviation Consulting group did a report for the pilots in negotiations and in that report Boyd stated "the airlines were poised to make record profits over the next several years"

Check the date – September 1995 - Read Boyd's comment - not quite the euphoric outlook for the industry at the time.

Airline unions hammered

By Lee Sustar | September 23, 2005

Excerpt:

| THE BANKRUPTCY filings by airlines Delta and Northwest September 14 signal yet another wave of attacks on unions that have surrendered tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in concessions since 2001.

The carriers are expected to follow the example of United Airlines and US Airways in using Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings to slash costs--for example, dumping pensions into a government insurance fund, slashing jobs and ramming through wage and benefit cuts.
US Airways has cut the number of jobs from 44,684 in 2001 to 22,460 today--and will soon merge with America West to create a low-cost, low-wage carrier. United has used bankruptcy to eliminate 42,253 jobs since 2001, about 44 percent of the total, as the company grabbed $3.5 billion in labor concessions.

Now Delta and Northwest--which already obtained givebacks in order to avoid bankruptcy--are prepared to use the courts to accelerate their own cost cutting. "The big thing you can do in Chapter 11 is stiff your creditors and get rid of all the airplanes you don't want and force employees to accept givebacks," said Michael Roach, former president of America West airlines and now an industry consultant.
While high fuel costs were blamed for triggering the bankruptcies, the underlying cause is the irrational economics of industry deregulation and the overcapacity in the industry that developed in the late 1990s.

Yet there's no sign that Northwest's bankruptcy proceeding will lead to solidarity with AMFA strikers. Instead, the company is trying to shut the mechanics' union out of bankruptcy proceedings, claiming that they no longer have a contract and have "no forum" in court. AMFA, which is not affiliated with the AFL-CIO, remains isolated in the labor movement.

At Delta, management has to contend with only one major unionized group of workers--the pilots--and will use bankruptcy to club them into making concessions. "Pilots will have to do it or learn how to say 'Welcome to Wal-Mart,'" Mike Boyd, an airline industry consultant, told a reporter.

In spite of your foggy memory, In the 1995 Negotiations Job Security was a primary concern in Tulsa and the System

This was an article, not the presentation prepared by the Boyd group. Delta bankruptcy had nothing to do with the projection of record profits for the airlines.

 

[Flying low]

You are incorrect "Slick" I hired in in 85 (in the hangar) and ALL AMTs got both licenses paid. At the time the support shops were loaded with A scalers and there was no way Ed Wilson would have taken money from them. Instead the next contract (89)grandfathered the A scalers in and they kept thier license pay while all us B scalers in the shops got one. The biggest problem with the TWU backers is their lack of memory when it comes to the give backs and the hosing of certain groups of AMTs. I got something I'll bet you forgot..... "An Injustice to one is and Injustice to All!" Remember that t-shirt? I guess that didn't apply to AMTs.

I'm pretty sure overspeed was referring to the AMT's at CO, not AA'S amt'S. And once again proven wrong by someone who has lived it.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I'm pretty sure overspeed was referring to the AMT's at CO, not AA'S amt'S. And once again proven wrong by someone who has lived it.

Oh. My bad. I thought this was an AA blog. Go figure. So what is next? We gonna talk about who gets what pay at British Air?

 

[Vortilon]

I stand corrected Check the date – September 1995 should read 2005, my typo.

Really, what else are you forgetting old timer?

 

[Flying low]

Oh. My bad. I thought this was an AA blog. Go figure. So what is next? We gonna talk about who gets what pay at British Air?

Come on, this is no longer an AA thread. It now belongs to UA, CO, USAIR, TWA, DELTA, NW, WN and who knows who else. No longer can you come here and get info just about AA

 

[Vortilon]

In 1994/1995 the Michael Boyd Aviation Consulting group did a report for the pilots in negotiations and in that report Boyd stated "the airlines were poised to make record profits over the next several years"

Check the date – September 1995 - Read Boyd's comment - not quite the euphoric outlook for the industry at the time.

Airline unions hammered

By Lee Sustar | September 23, 2005

Excerpt:

| THE BANKRUPTCY filings by airlines Delta and Northwest September 14 signal yet another wave of attacks on unions that have surrendered tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in concessions since 2001.

The carriers are expected to follow the example of United Airlines and US Airways in using Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings to slash costs--for example, dumping pensions into a government insurance fund, slashing jobs and ramming through wage and benefit cuts.
US Airways has cut the number of jobs from 44,684 in 2001 to 22,460 today--and will soon merge with America West to create a low-cost, low-wage carrier. United has used bankruptcy to eliminate 42,253 jobs since 2001, about 44 percent of the total, as the company grabbed $3.5 billion in labor concessions.

Now Delta and Northwest--which already obtained givebacks in order to avoid bankruptcy--are prepared to use the courts to accelerate their own cost cutting. "The big thing you can do in Chapter 11 is stiff your creditors and get rid of all the airplanes you don't want and force employees to accept givebacks," said Michael Roach, former president of America West airlines and now an industry consultant.
While high fuel costs were blamed for triggering the bankruptcies, the underlying cause is the irrational economics of industry deregulation and the overcapacity in the industry that developed in the late 1990s.

Yet there's no sign that Northwest's bankruptcy proceeding will lead to solidarity with AMFA strikers. Instead, the company is trying to shut the mechanics' union out of bankruptcy proceedings, claiming that they no longer have a contract and have "no forum" in court. AMFA, which is not affiliated with the AFL-CIO, remains isolated in the labor movement.

At Delta, management has to contend with only one major unionized group of workers--the pilots--and will use bankruptcy to club them into making concessions. "Pilots will have to do it or learn how to say 'Welcome to Wal-Mart,'" Mike Boyd, an airline industry consultant, told a reporter.

In spite of your foggy memory, In the 1995 Negotiations Job Security was a primary concern in Tulsa and the System

My foggy memory, thats funny - I can remember being very pissed off about the deal. Here is the the common theme in every TWU negotiated contract. The TWU will always maximize the headcount to maintain dues payers. Forget about pay and benefits for the dues payers. If you a fan of communism, then the TWU is for you.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Hey, for all you Tulsa AAers out there..... Do you remember when Local 514 started the Junior mechanic upgrade program for career cleaners and stock clerks? Well I asked Ed Wilson during a membership meeting when we were going to start the Pilot upgrade program for mechanics. I can still see the look on Wilson's face. hahahahaha

 

[aapitbull]

Hey, for all you Tulsa AAers out there..... Do you remember when Local 514 started the Junior mechanic upgrade program for career cleaners and stock clerks? Well I asked Ed Wilson during a membership meeting when we were going to start the Pilot upgrade program for mechanics. I can still see the look on Wilson's face. hahahahaha

Now that is funny, I wish I could have seen that!

You know there was one it was called Flight Engineer but the TWU did not have anything to do with it

 

[Overspeed]

Are their mechs there that get paid for only 1 lic- sure. Do you they have unlic mechs on payroll??...sure they do-like vurtually every carrier.

And at AA all our AMTs under the TWU contract get paid for both licenses if they carry it. It's not a lie that every AMT that worked at CO in the engine shop, APU, landing gear, and support shops got paid for one license. How many unlicensed AMTs worked on the BC"s at CO when you were there? All the cabin work was done by unlicensed mechanics on the widebody BC's. How many guys came out of the sheet metal shop with licenses? Very few. The point was that in 1995 OSM/SRP was a response to market forces like it or not.

You can call me a liar but the truth is that prior to 1995 CO employed thousands of one license or no license AMTs in LAX, DEN, and HOU bases. In some of these stations they had a company called Franklin Services (After Frank Lorenzo) to bring contract mechanics in to work peak C check work that could not be handled by CO AMTs.

The problem is different now. AA overhaul is competing against UA/CO that outsources 50% or more of their overhaul work to low wage MROs. WN outsources all their engines, most of their components, and all but four lines of overhaul. DL outsources all their airframe overhaul. That is the current market condition. So now what? Vote no and find out if we end up better than them. Want market rate wages? Then are you ready to match the market on work scope as well?

 

[aapitbull]

And at AA all our AMTs under the TWU contract get paid for both licenses if they carry it. It's not a lie that every AMT that worked at CO in the engine shop, APU, landing gear, and support shops got paid for one license. How many unlicensed AMTs worked on the BC"s at CO when you were there? All the cabin work was done by unlicensed mechanics on the widebody BC's. How many guys came out of the sheet metal shop with licenses? Very few. The point was that in 1995 OSM/SRP was a response to market forces like it or not.

You can call me a liar but the truth is that prior to 1995 CO employed thousands of one license or no license AMTs in LAX, DEN, and HOU bases. In some of these stations they had a company called Franklin Services (After Frank Lorenzo) to bring contract mechanics in to work peak C check work that could not be handled by CO AMTs.

The problem is different now. AA overhaul is competing against UA/CO that outsources 50% or more of their overhaul work to low wage MROs. WN outsources all their engines, most of their components, and all but four lines of overhaul. DL outsources all their airframe overhaul. That is the current market condition. So now what? Vote no and find out if we end up better than them. Want market rate wages? Then are you ready to match the market on work scope as well?

Yea and in 1995 all the mechanic's at CAL were at will employee's because they had been abandoned by the IAM back in the day, so you lowered our union contract to compete with the non-union rates. and called it representation.It was just about that time that AMFA filed the cards and started the process of reorganizing CAL they did not get a election because the NMB said they did not have enough cards{stole it from them} but at least it set the bar and unfortunately they ended up with the Teamsters but that is another story.

 

[Vortilon]

And at AA all our AMTs under the TWU contract get paid for both licenses if they carry it. It's not a lie that every AMT that worked at CO in the engine shop, APU, landing gear, and support shops got paid for one license. How many unlicensed AMTs worked on the BC"s at CO when you were there? All the cabin work was done by unlicensed mechanics on the widebody BC's. How many guys came out of the sheet metal shop with licenses? Very few. The point was that in 1995 OSM/SRP was a response to market forces like it or not.

You can call me a liar but the truth is that prior to 1995 CO employed thousands of one license or no license AMTs in LAX, DEN, and HOU bases. In some of these stations they had a company called Franklin Services (After Frank Lorenzo) to bring contract mechanics in to work peak C check work that could not be handled by CO AMTs.

The problem is different now. AA overhaul is competing against UA/CO that outsources 50% or more of their overhaul work to low wage MROs. WN outsources all their engines, most of their components, and all but four lines of overhaul. DL outsources all their airframe overhaul. That is the current market condition. So now what? Vote no and find out if we end up better than them. Want market rate wages? Then are you ready to match the market on work scope as well?

Well, hell yes we are ready. Let them try. The MROs are taxed as it is, nobody wants to work at a scumbag place like TIMCO for any longer than it takes to get a real job. Look at some of the news storys of MROs having to bring in illegal foreign workers. Bob Owens is right, A & P schools are drying up, there are not the numbers of aircraft mechanics that there once were.

 

[Realityck]

This was an article, not the presentation prepared by the Boyd group. Delta bankruptcy had nothing to do with the projection of record profits for the airlines.


Another article for the AMFA crystal ball gazers to scoff at, even though it was written just prior to our 1995 Negotiations and included and another negative forecast by Mr. Boyd.


Airline industry in dire straits as majors risk collapse




Airlines in bankrupty

Aloha -- Dec. 2004
ATA -- Oct. 2004
US Airways* -- Sept. 2004
Hawaiian -- March 2003
United -- Dec. 2002

* second time

What happens if a major U.S. airline dies? Or two or three? At the moment, a multicarrier collapse seems unlikely -- but, then again, so did oil prices per barrel remaining in the high $40s or an airline losing $2.2 billion in a quarter or $5.2 billion in a year, as Delta just reported.

Most industry analysts think United has too much value and investor interest to die -- assuming it cuts pension costs by terminating its defined-benefit plans -- and US Airways received a new lease on life through at least June, thanks to the federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board.



Airline industry in dire straits as majors risk collapse

Airlines in bankruptcy
Aloha -- Dec. 2004
ATA -- Oct. 2004
US Airways* -- Sept. 2004
Hawaiian -- March 2003
United -- Dec. 2002

* second time

What happens if a major U.S. airline dies? Or two or three? At the moment, a multicarrier collapse seems unlikely -- but, then again, so did oil prices per barrel remaining in the high

Most industry analysts think United has too much value and investor interest to die -- assuming it cuts pension costs by terminating its defined-benefit plans -- and US Airways received a new lease on life through at least June, thanks to the federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board.

Nonetheless, rarely if ever has the industry seen so many U.S. airlines in such dire straits. Five carriers are in Chapter 11 and others are losing hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Many are shaky enough that they may be one labor strike, economic downturn, major oil-price spike or terrorist act away from financial collapse. Their margin of error is slim.

It is precarious, and something could snap, said aviation consultant Michael Boyd, who considers a multicarrier liquidation highly unlikely, but possible. Boyd is president of the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Col., a consulting firm that just completed an analysis of the likely impact of a US Airways failure.

Boyd didn't sound as optimistic about the short term 94/95 profit picture as some of you AMFA fortune remember it. But then , you know things nobody else does. If you don't know it, you'll invent it.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Another article for the AMFA crystal ball gazers to scoff at, even though it was written just prior to our 1995 Negotiations and included and another negative forecast by Mr. Boyd.



Boyd didn't sound as optimistic about the short term 94/95 profit picture as some of you AMFA fortune remember it. But then , you know things nobody else does. If you don't know it, you'll invent it.

You truly are an idiot. This article was written in 2005.

Here is a link...http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Airline-industry-in-dire-straits-as-majors-risk-collapse/

For someone who calls themselves "Realityck", you certainly live in an altered state of reality

 

[Buck]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/07/apa-answers-questions-about-its-proposed-13-5-percent-share-of-amrs-new-equity.html/



Q(5): What will happen to APA’s 13.5 percent equity stake if other unions receive a larger share?

A: APA’s 13.5 percent equity stake is “dilution protected” from any claims given to APFA, TWU or any other unsecured creditor.

We do not expect that APFA or TWU will receive larger equity stakes than APA’s 13.5 percent equity stake. On the contrary, based on the relative economics of the various collective bargaining agreements, we expect their ultimate claims or equity shares will be much smaller than APA’s.