- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
And the OSM's you always fail to calculate their substandard wages...
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TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement
- Thread starter devil505
- Start date
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
So now the TWU is a government entity and a tax collector.
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Yes I know who AirCon is. A data source that is supplied with information from other management types. Do you have other data that shows different? The pay rates in the TA are consistent with what I have read in their contracts. Your losing it Bob.
The ARSA is a group that is focused on increasing of outsourcing of maintenance work. The ARSA wants the ban on new MRO licenses lifted by the FAA. Why? So they can take more work from airline MROs and drive the existing ones out of business. Why is that important? Well you were pushing AMFA back in 2004 you stated with glee that AMFA was coming and we would get a great deal soon. Now Ken is accepting money from the ARSA who wants to take work from places like TUL, AFW, and DWH and have it sent to fellow ARSA members MROs. MROs like TIMCO, AAR, ATS, AMECO, HAECO, and SAESL to name a few. Interesting that AMFA organizers would align themselves with a group (ARSA) who wants to put airline overhaul shops out of business. Wait a second, AMFA has been instrumental in the destruction of overhaul jobs while getting line AMT pay scales up.
Bob, by urging people to vote no so more overhaul jobs are placed at risk and standing shoulder to shoulder with AMFA organizer Ken (who aligns himself with the ARSA who wants airline MROs out of business) you are furthering your personal agenda of getting line AMTs more money at the cost of overhaul.
That's pretty crappy Bob and Ken. I hope that blood money spends well.
Maybe we should all just step back and recognize the two geniuses in our midst so we can take advantage of their tea-leaf reading skills. Normally you have to pay a fortune teller to get that kind of information, and here we're getting it for free!
With Bob and Ken's vote NO history (and I'm sure their obvious AMFA connections wouldn't have anything to do with that) these two pied pipers are predicting there's a likelihood we'll have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Far more than we can expect at this stage of the game, and all we have to do is Vote No. They did the same thing in 2010 and got us exactly where are we right now. But their response is, trust us, and imply you (probably) can't lose - I hate to tell you and burst your bubble, but we already did!
And their fake concern about the Overhaul AMTs is the bait to suck in the Tulsa vote. Just remember, these are two AMFA groupies and anyone who doesn't believe they could care less about Overhaul vs their Line AMTs either doesn't know them very well, or hasn't been paying attention.
As I said before on this Forum, I met Delle personally and his AMFA pitch was "American management will gladly pay you more because you're professionals". Knowing management like I did, I laughed in his face. Also, his view point then was "Line AMTs are much higher skilled than Overhaul AMTs". Maybe we should ask Bob or Ken what their viewpoint is. You know they wouldn't lie to us right.
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Yes I know who AirCon is. A data source that is supplied with information from other management types. Do you have other data that shows different? The pay rates in the TA are consistent with what I have read in their contracts. Your losing it Bob.
The ARSA is a group that is focused on increasing of outsourcing of maintenance work. The ARSA wants the ban on new MRO licenses lifted by the FAA. Why? So they can take more work from airline MROs and drive the existing ones out of business. Why is that important? Well you were pushing AMFA back in 2004 you stated with glee that AMFA was coming and we would get a great deal soon. Now Ken is accepting money from the ARSA who wants to take work from places like TUL, AFW, and DWH and have it sent to fellow ARSA members MROs. MROs like TIMCO, AAR, ATS, AMECO, HAECO, and SAESL to name a few. Interesting that AMFA organizers would align themselves with a group (ARSA) who wants to put airline overhaul shops out of business. Wait a second, AMFA has been instrumental in the destruction of overhaul jobs while getting line AMT pay scales up.
Bob, by urging people to vote no so more overhaul jobs are placed at risk and standing shoulder to shoulder with AMFA organizer Ken (who aligns himself with the ARSA who wants airline MROs out of business) you are furthering your personal agenda of getting line AMTs more money at the cost of overhaul.
That's pretty crappy Bob and Ken. I hope that blood money spends well.
Maybe we should all just step back and recognize the two geniuses in our midst so we can take advantage of their tea-leaf reading skills. Normally you have to pay a fortune teller to get that kind of information, and here we're getting it for free!
With Bob and Ken's vote NO history (and I'm sure their obvious AMFA connections wouldn't have anything to do with that) these two pied pipers are predicting there's a likelihood we'll have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Far more than we can expect at this stage of the game, and all we have to do is Vote No. They did the same thing in 2010 and got us exactly where are we right now. But their response is, trust us, and imply you (probably) can't lose - I hate to tell you and burst your bubble, but we already did!
And their fake concern about the Overhaul AMTs is the bait to suck in the Tulsa vote. Just remember, these are two AMFA groupies and anyone who doesn't believe they could care less about Overhaul vs their Line AMTs either doesn't know them very well, or hasn't been paying attention.
As I said before on this Forum, I met Delle personally and his AMFA pitch was "American management will gladly pay you more because you're professionals". Knowing management like I did, I laughed in his face. Also, his view point then was "Line AMTs are much higher skilled than Overhaul AMTs". Maybe we should ask Bob or Ken what their viewpoint is. You know they wouldn't lie to us right.
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- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
I am an AMFA groupie and I work in TUL? Guess you do not know much....
Overspin leaves a lot out such as his $37 is a figure that would have been on paper only, driven by a MRT premium that the company could easily avoid paying and still get midnight coverage, like our early opener in 2006, Cockpit jump seat priviledges etc. In reality nearly every mechanic would have been below $36/hr. So it would have given AA the ability to say they were number 2 in pay while actually paying everyone bottom of the industry wages.
Overspin makes the same arguements the company and some in the union do. He will cite max pay rates but avoid revealing that our average wage has been at the bottom of the industry since 1995 with the introduction of SRPs. Another assault on the profession.A&P mechanics being paid very low wages.
odie01
Veteran
- May 11, 2010
- 1,321
- 473
All,
Now that another T/A is out, many people will no doubt be asking the question: What’s the Local’s position yes or no? I will only speak for myself since we haven’t met as an Executive Board yet to fully discuss an “official” position. I for one will be voting to REJECT this so called proposal and I will explain why.
I know there will be members who disagree and they have that right, but I can’t in good conscience give up what took so long for past union members to gain. We have done nothing but concede to company demands since 2003, all the while, the top executives raked in the money from our sacrifice. We gave up things in my opinion we had no right to give up, we didn’t earn it. We had it because our brothers and sisters before us either with this union or another in the industry fought for it. We simply had the privilege of enjoying it, the ten holidays, double time, two weeks sick accrual just to name a few; all of which are gone today!
These are hard times we face in today’s economy and the fear of the unknown is a real issue, but there comes a time when you have to stick to what you believe. Now is one of those times. If we continue down the path we’re on, there will be no such thing as a career in aviation. People use to say to me “Wow you’ve got it made working for an airline.” Now I must say, most people are surprised that I haven’t left and gone into a new career. I haven’t given up hope just yet. I believe we can still stand together and regain what we lost and strive to achieve a career worthy enough for the next generation to participate. We may not get it all back this go around, but we surly can’t continue to regress. It may take having to have the contract abrogated through bankruptcy in order that we may continue to negotiate under the RLA, but to make great gains one must be willing to make great sacrifices.
Of all the concessions, our defined pension has to be one of the biggest issues. If we are going to freeze it and settle for a matching 401(k), then why are we not jumping up and down screaming for the same level of company match as the pilots are currently being offered in their T/A 14% versus our 5.5%. That is what we call a substantial difference! You throw in the fact that over a five year period a 777 Captain goes from $204.83 an hour to $235.19, a $30.36 raise not counting what they may get over and above with their 36 month wage adjustment. A topped out AMT today only makes $32.20 with license premium, that’s a raise worth almost as much as one year’s salary! If it’s worth that much to have that Captain’s experience sitting in the left seat, then how much is that AMT worth that makes sure it’s safe for that plane to depart? Now before you say it, I know there aren’t many topped out 777 Captains running around, but look at the rest of the pay scales. For example a S80 First Officer goes from $109.64 to $125.89, a $16.25 per hour pay increase. It’s a slap in the face that the person maintaining the aircraft is only worth a raise of about $3.43 (assuming 3% wage adjustment) over the same five year period. That means it will be 2017 before we get back to the same base pay we would have topped out under the 2001 agreement! Who’s laughing at us now?
Among other reasons to reject this T/A, another would be the fact that this is the same offer we voted down sans moving around the pieces of the proverbial pie. The company might have added money to the pay, made minute reductions to benefits contributions, but we paid for them by giving up other things. They completely removed job security, stating in negotiations that why do we want it, this union has shown they are willing to lift it whenever we (AA) need them to. This statement was made by Jim Ream with no response from the International, but then again what can you say when it’s a factual statement? They also changed the full pay for sick time use back to half pay for the first day. Are we to rejoice that at least we got one day back? I think not! I won’t even begin to go into the amount of out sourcing that’s going to be allowed and for Tulsa to think that it’s going to stop there is laughable. What do you think is going to happen once the 737 starts to go away and the 767 begins to be replaced with the 787? The folks in Tulsa better wake up and start smelling the coffee before it’s too late. Under this agreement the Facilities department will be almost non-existent, you’d have to be a fool to vote for your own job to be out sourced.
These are just a few of the reasons this T/A needs to be voted down. There’s so many more, but this email is long enough already. I know it’s a scary thing to ask, I know we all have families to feed, but if someone in this country and in this union doesn’t start fighting back, we will leave nothing but a legacy of failure behind for future generations to come. Those generations will be made up of our children, or children’s children. Please consider this when the time to vote comes. I for one will be voting NO.
In solidarity,
KP
Kenneth E. Powell
Section Vice President Aircraft Maintenance
Air Transport Local 567
Transport Workers Union of America AFL-CIO
Now that another T/A is out, many people will no doubt be asking the question: What’s the Local’s position yes or no? I will only speak for myself since we haven’t met as an Executive Board yet to fully discuss an “official” position. I for one will be voting to REJECT this so called proposal and I will explain why.
I know there will be members who disagree and they have that right, but I can’t in good conscience give up what took so long for past union members to gain. We have done nothing but concede to company demands since 2003, all the while, the top executives raked in the money from our sacrifice. We gave up things in my opinion we had no right to give up, we didn’t earn it. We had it because our brothers and sisters before us either with this union or another in the industry fought for it. We simply had the privilege of enjoying it, the ten holidays, double time, two weeks sick accrual just to name a few; all of which are gone today!
These are hard times we face in today’s economy and the fear of the unknown is a real issue, but there comes a time when you have to stick to what you believe. Now is one of those times. If we continue down the path we’re on, there will be no such thing as a career in aviation. People use to say to me “Wow you’ve got it made working for an airline.” Now I must say, most people are surprised that I haven’t left and gone into a new career. I haven’t given up hope just yet. I believe we can still stand together and regain what we lost and strive to achieve a career worthy enough for the next generation to participate. We may not get it all back this go around, but we surly can’t continue to regress. It may take having to have the contract abrogated through bankruptcy in order that we may continue to negotiate under the RLA, but to make great gains one must be willing to make great sacrifices.
Of all the concessions, our defined pension has to be one of the biggest issues. If we are going to freeze it and settle for a matching 401(k), then why are we not jumping up and down screaming for the same level of company match as the pilots are currently being offered in their T/A 14% versus our 5.5%. That is what we call a substantial difference! You throw in the fact that over a five year period a 777 Captain goes from $204.83 an hour to $235.19, a $30.36 raise not counting what they may get over and above with their 36 month wage adjustment. A topped out AMT today only makes $32.20 with license premium, that’s a raise worth almost as much as one year’s salary! If it’s worth that much to have that Captain’s experience sitting in the left seat, then how much is that AMT worth that makes sure it’s safe for that plane to depart? Now before you say it, I know there aren’t many topped out 777 Captains running around, but look at the rest of the pay scales. For example a S80 First Officer goes from $109.64 to $125.89, a $16.25 per hour pay increase. It’s a slap in the face that the person maintaining the aircraft is only worth a raise of about $3.43 (assuming 3% wage adjustment) over the same five year period. That means it will be 2017 before we get back to the same base pay we would have topped out under the 2001 agreement! Who’s laughing at us now?
Among other reasons to reject this T/A, another would be the fact that this is the same offer we voted down sans moving around the pieces of the proverbial pie. The company might have added money to the pay, made minute reductions to benefits contributions, but we paid for them by giving up other things. They completely removed job security, stating in negotiations that why do we want it, this union has shown they are willing to lift it whenever we (AA) need them to. This statement was made by Jim Ream with no response from the International, but then again what can you say when it’s a factual statement? They also changed the full pay for sick time use back to half pay for the first day. Are we to rejoice that at least we got one day back? I think not! I won’t even begin to go into the amount of out sourcing that’s going to be allowed and for Tulsa to think that it’s going to stop there is laughable. What do you think is going to happen once the 737 starts to go away and the 767 begins to be replaced with the 787? The folks in Tulsa better wake up and start smelling the coffee before it’s too late. Under this agreement the Facilities department will be almost non-existent, you’d have to be a fool to vote for your own job to be out sourced.
These are just a few of the reasons this T/A needs to be voted down. There’s so many more, but this email is long enough already. I know it’s a scary thing to ask, I know we all have families to feed, but if someone in this country and in this union doesn’t start fighting back, we will leave nothing but a legacy of failure behind for future generations to come. Those generations will be made up of our children, or children’s children. Please consider this when the time to vote comes. I for one will be voting NO.
In solidarity,
KP
Kenneth E. Powell
Section Vice President Aircraft Maintenance
Air Transport Local 567
Transport Workers Union of America AFL-CIO
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
So AA is going to become so smart and change shifts just to avoid paying MRT? Really you have that much faith in them? Okay, you now have no credibility.
Again, we had a deal but you recommended voting no that we would get better, oh excuse me, we would "fight" for more money. How's that working out? The early opener only works if you actually plan on negotiating something and voting yes on it. That July 2010 deal would have been coming up on opening again. A lot of us could have used that $30K instead of all this "fighting" we are doing.
Cockpit jumpseat isn't us. Its the APA blocking us. They don't want us there.
The language was very specific on the wage opener. The company had no wiggle room like you state. Doesn't matter now anyway. Hey...quiet down now...I am listening to the sound of Bob leading the all the "fighting" for higher wages.
How can average wage be the bottom wage. Computing the average is a mathematical formula based on like values stated in the language. You are resorting to making stuff up now. Wow! If we used today's wages paid we are the lowest now right? So if everyone is paid more than we are BELOW the average and we get adjusted UP, not down. Did you pass math in school?
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
No, but the IRS is and the US Tax Code lets you deduct your union dues.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
Oh Buck, we have been down this road but let's do this again. AA does work with OSMs that all the others outsource and all other airlines go one step further. They outsource work that AA has AMTs doing to MROs as well. OSM substandard wages? Compared to $2/hour in China (UA, DL, and CO HC's) and $5/hour in El Salvador (WN and jetBlue HC) AA OSM wages are not substandard compared to having your AMT job outsourced.
The TWU could get you WN wages but we would have to allow all the engines, components, downsize and eliminate many line Class II stations, and outsource all but four lines of HC. So if you are one of the lucky 3,500 you could get $42/hour! $5/hour for the price of 6,500 jobs? That's a deal!!! What a CBA!!! AA will agree to that as well (while Horton mumbles under his breath, "This is f'n awesome!").
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
Nice try. The fact is you are comparing a wage negotiated eight years after exiting BK. Your argument is easily dismissed by the fact is the market rate is not the issue in BK. It's paying back the creditors. Plain and simple.
Bob you are willing to destroy countless overhaul jobs. Are overhaul AMT jobs not a profession as well? And I am destroying a profession? How about your buddy Ken joining forces with the ARSA? How's that for "destroying the profession?" Working with a group that wants more foreign MROs and lifting of the ban on issuing 145 certificates? You two advising people on voting no because we will get better while you are working hard to make sure we get our CBA abrogated and more overhaul jobs are outsourced. Even your buddy Chuck stated he is voting no because he doesn't care about what the AMTs get paid in TUL, he is just worried about himself in JFK. It's all about you, Ken, and Chuck "defending the profession" right?
AC Tynker
Senior
- Jun 24, 2012
- 481
- 107
FACT: I have " Complete Frustration of Ignorance of Others " reading some of these posts.
FACT: I don't type a response of what I am really thinking.
heh Sorry just trying to fit in
AC Tynker
Senior
- Jun 24, 2012
- 481
- 107
Oh Ok ?
AC Tynker
Senior
- Jun 24, 2012
- 481
- 107
Just out of curiosity what difference does time on board make when it comes to being professional? I have been a member, moderated, super moderated, Global Moderated, Admin-ed on several forums, Oped on IRC, OPed and Admin-ed on OpenNap and been doing so for 14ish years but who cares because it means nothing when it comes to having Tact and Being Professional. That's the point Raptorman is trying to get across. If you are so seasoned at this then surely you realize your err. Nothing personal.
Doesnt take a genius to figure out if you start the guys at 59 vs the hour that you will save
$1.50 and hour.
If you have no faith in this management team why would you advocate making more sacrifices to them? Even heathens arent dumb enough to make sacrifices to gods they dont believe in.
Cockpit Jump seat-sure blame the pilots, Dispatchers get it dont they?
Like I said we need to get to the 11th hour of the 29th day. We spent six months haggling over the 1/7th rule. We supported that issue, not more than 10 minutes after the company agreed to TA it the Tulsa rep turns around and says "Now its time to get to the nut-cutting and there's going to be some hurt feelings around here". So we waited for six months on the 1/7th rule then Tulsa voted against asking for a release evbery time. Carlisle was beyond himself when the vote passed to ask, I told him dont worry, we wont ask, guaranteed, Don and the International would find a way out of it and they did. We didnt ask.
Wage openers, early openers are all worthless, did we have an early opener in 2001? No, the company opened the contract by threatening to file BK, did we have an early opener in 2003? Yes, did we get "everything back" as Jim Little promised in 2006? No, in fact now we are expected to give up more.
Wages, nice attempt at spinning, not really. Everyone knows that pay is more than the hourly wage. You can have an average hourly wage but still be at the bottom. At the moment we have the bottom hourly wage and if this apsses we will be at the bottom in all other formns of pay. Compared to UAL, number 3 from the bottom, we would be getting over $16,000 a year less. The math isnt that complicated.
The following is for 20 year line mechanics:
UAL current wage at 2080 hours=$79, 872
AA proposed wage at 2080 hours =$70,928
UAL vacation @ 20 years =$7680
AA Vacation @ 20 years= $5456
UAL Holiday package=$3686.40
AA Holiday package=$682
UAL Sick Package=$3686.40
AA sick package=$1364
Do the math, our max total compensation lags by at least $16,495 per year. And as I said UAL is number 3 from the bottom.
What difference does the year they filed make? Are you saying that if a company filed in 1980 and came out with $10/hr that a company exiting BK in 2012 should expect to pay around $10/hr? BK is supposed to reset onerous contracts to market rates, not set new lower market rates. Show me an example where any labor group agreed to 20% below the bottom ratified contract in any industry in BK. Of course Market Rate is an issue, can the court impose a price the oil companies can charge? NO, what he can do is rip up a contract, such as a hedge if the price is above market rates though.
Once again, we are Creditors.
I'm not destroying anything, but I'm not willing to give more concessions every time they threaten to outsource more work. I dont think we should destroy the profession in a vain attempt to keep our OH numbers where they are. We set the decline of inhouse OH in motion back in 1995 with the introducion of SRPs. It created an imbalance of costs in the airline industry which eventually lead to most of our competitors outsourcing large parts of their OH. How could USAIR pay a guy $35/hr to fix a coffee maker when AA was paying $20? You are seeking to continue this downward trend until we are all making MRO wages.
Sorry, but I just dont buy that you are so generous that you are willing to work for $16,000 a year less so we can maintain OH, especially when you already admitted that you beleive most of it will dissapear as new aircraft come in because most of the work will be done by line maint and we will switch to doing sectional checks like SWA and UAL.
Its obvious to pretty much everyone here that you are not who you portray yourself to be and do not have to work under the terms you advocate. Perhaps an extra few moments of silence are in order?
