TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Buck]

No, but the IRS is and the US Tax Code lets you deduct your union dues.

Then there was no real need in informing the poster why he paid dues, right?

I was under the assumption that dies were paid for representation, I guess not...

 

[Buck]

Oh Buck, we have been down this road but let's do this again. AA does work with OSMs that all the others outsource and all other airlines go one step further. They outsource work that AA has AMTs doing to MROs as well. OSM substandard wages? Compared to $2/hour in China (UA, DL, and CO HC's) and $5/hour in El Salvador (WN and jetBlue HC) AA OSM wages are not substandard compared to having your AMT job outsourced.

The TWU could get you WN wages but we would have to allow all the engines, components, downsize and eliminate many line Class II stations, and outsource all but four lines of HC. So if you are one of the lucky 3,500 you could get $42/hour! $5/hour for the price of 6,500 jobs? That's a deal!!! What a CBA!!! AA will agree to that as well (while Horton mumbles under his breath, "This is f'n awesome!").

Ok, then if the TWU "could get Southwest wages at your stated costs to jobs, then why is it that the TWU cannot obtain something above average for the legacy carriers? The TWU lawyers in the AA bankruptcy docket #2726 have stated that average is $36+. I do like your stretch of how much the mechanics are compensated. You state "$42/hour! $5/hour for the price of 6,500 jobs?" I am pretty sure that top out is $27.20 plus $5/hour license premium for the A&P's, which is $32.20 plus $0.55 for the line, right?

 

[Birdman]

Then there was no real need in informing the poster why he paid dues, right?

I was under the assumption that dues were paid for representation, I guess not...

Union dues are subject to a 2% AGI before they can be deducted making the law as useless to me as the representation the compulsory dues pay for.

 

[Overspeed]

Doesnt take a genius to figure out if you start the guys at 59 vs the hour that you will save
$1.50 and hour.

If you have no faith in this management team why would you advocate making more sacrifices to them? Even heathens arent dumb enough to make sacrifices to gods they dont believe in.

Cockpit Jump seat-sure blame the pilots, Dispatchers get it dont they?

Like I said we need to get to the 11th hour of the 29th day. We spent six months haggling over the 1/7th rule. We supported that issue, not more than 10 minutes after the company agreed to TA it the Tulsa rep turns around and says "Now its time to get to the nut-cutting and there's going to be some hurt feelings around here". So we waited for six months on the 1/7th rule then Tulsa voted against asking for a release evbery time. Carlisle was beyond himself when the vote passed to ask, I told him dont worry, we wont ask, guaranteed, Don and the International would find a way out of it and they did. We didnt ask.

Wage openers, early openers are all worthless, did we have an early opener in 2001? No, the company opened the contract by threatening to file BK, did we have an early opener in 2003? Yes, did we get "everything back" as Jim Little promised in 2006? No, in fact now we are expected to give up more.

Wages, nice attempt at spinning, not really. Everyone knows that pay is more than the hourly wage. You can have an average hourly wage but still be at the bottom. At the moment we have the bottom hourly wage and if this apsses we will be at the bottom in all other formns of pay. Compared to UAL, number 3 from the bottom, we would be getting over $16,000 a year less. The math isnt that complicated.

The following is for 20 year line mechanics:

UAL current wage at 2080 hours=$79, 872
AA proposed wage at 2080 hours =$70,928

UAL vacation @ 20 years =$7680
AA Vacation @ 20 years= $5456

UAL Holiday package=$3686.40
AA Holiday package=$682

UAL Sick Package=$3686.40
AA sick package=$1364

Do the math, our max total compensation lags by at least $16,495 per year. And as I said UAL is number 3 from the bottom.

Stay on point.

You are comparing the UA wage negotiated eight years after emerging from BK. Fact that UA took a pay cut where we are not during BK proceedings, in fact we are getting a 3% raise right out of BK. Way better than any airline that was in BK. Fact check the correct facts.

Market rate is meaningless in the eyes of the BK law. The process is to protect the creditors not the employees. Once again Bob, we are in BK and it favors big business and the banks.

Is jump seat a strike issue? And Dispatchers getting jump seat, non-issue so why bring it up? Are we going on strike for it? No.

Blaming TUL now? Nice.

Bob, did you do the math in July 2010 as well. We were going to be making more today than UA, CO, and US if we voted yes. Face it, you made a bad recommendation then because you stated it was a threat, we all read it. You downplayed BK, you stated that the Int'l and management were in collusion to scare us in to voting yes on crappy deal. Looking at the past few years you were wrong Bob. It wasn't a conspiracy or threat was it? No we are in it and you keep telling people to vote no it will get better, of excuse me, we are going to "fight" for a better deal. We may be fighting but we are getting our asses kicked. Either way thousands are losing their jobs and vote no and test Judge Lane on whether or not he will abrogate? Bob, everyone but you on this website has said hey are positive he will abrogate.

Bob admit it, you were wrong in July 2010 and you are wrong now. We are about to get royally shafted and voting no will make it worse. I'm not giving AA anything, I am mitigating the situation. That's it.

 

[Overspeed]

Ok, then if the TWU "could get Southwest wages at your stated costs to jobs, then why is it that the TWU cannot obtain something above average for the legacy carriers? The TWU lawyers in the AA bankruptcy docket #2726 have stated that average is $36+. I do like your stretch of how much the mechanics are compensated. You state "$42/hour! $5/hour for the price of 6,500 jobs?" I am pretty sure that top out is $27.20 plus $5/hour license premium for the A&P's, which is $32.20 plus $0.55 for the line, right?

The TWU did get above average in July 2010 and we voted no because it was a crappy deal. You had above average and we said that was not good enough. The TWU told all of us that we risked the possibility of BK and we as a group said we were fine with that risk.

I am not arguing that we are on the express elevator to lowest paid. The lawyers made the best argument they could however the law favors the creditors not the employees in BK. Sad but true.

We can all lay out all the stats on market rate that show we are going to be the lowest paid but Judge Lane is not guided by market rate.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

I was under the assumption that dues were paid for representation, I guess not...

That is a rather mistaken assumtion, sir, dues being a "quid pro quo" thing - the net effect to most is "gratis".

For the money I've given the twu over the years, one issue (that I can't talk about - yet) proved to me it was a total waste. I would have expected it, however, had I known a union officer's wife worked in TULE HR and that's not seen as a conflict of interest by our darlings at the hall.

 

[swamt]

ATTENTION!! AMFA INFO MEETING WITH AA'ers BEING HELD THIS WEEKEND AT HOTEL. COME ALL ASK ANYTHING, BUT REMAIN PROFFESSIONAL. VIDEO ALL OF IT TO SHOW HOW THE TWU WILL RESPOND. GOOD LUCK GUYS!!!!

 

[Mr Red]

Stay on point.

You are comparing the UA wage negotiated eight years after emerging from BK. Fact that UA took a pay cut where we are not during BK proceedings, in fact we are getting a 3% raise right out of BK. Way better than any airline that was in BK. Fact check the correct facts.

Market rate is meaningless in the eyes of the BK law. The process is to protect the creditors not the employees. Once again Bob, we are in BK and it favors big business and the banks.

Is jump seat a strike issue? And Dispatchers getting jump seat, non-issue so why bring it up? Are we going on strike for it? No.

Blaming TUL now? Nice.

Bob, did you do the math in July 2010 as well. We were going to be making more today than UA, CO, and US if we voted yes. Face it, you made a bad recommendation then because you stated it was a threat, we all read it. You downplayed BK, you stated that the Int'l and management were in collusion to scare us in to voting yes on crappy deal. Looking at the past few years you were wrong Bob. It wasn't a conspiracy or threat was it? No we are in it and you keep telling people to vote no it will get better, of excuse me, we are going to "fight" for a better deal. We may be fighting but we are getting our asses kicked. Either way thousands are losing their jobs and vote no and test Judge Lane on whether or not he will abrogate? Bob, everyone but you on this website has said hey are positive he will abrogate.

Bob admit it, you were wrong in July 2010 and you are wrong now. We are about to get royally shafted and voting no will make it worse. I'm not giving AA anything, I am mitigating the situation. That's it.

YES we blame the TWU= Totally IncompetantThe company plays them like a cheap Fiddle !

 

[Overspeed]

What difference does the year they filed make? Are you saying that if a company filed in 1980 and came out with $10/hr that a company exiting BK in 2012 should expect to pay around $10/hr? BK is supposed to reset onerous contracts to market rates, not set new lower market rates. Show me an example where any labor group agreed to 20% below the bottom ratified contract in any industry in BK. Of course Market Rate is an issue, can the court impose a price the oil companies can charge? NO, what he can do is rip up a contract, such as a hedge if the price is above market rates though.

Once again, we are Creditors.

I'm not destroying anything, but I'm not willing to give more concessions every time they threaten to outsource more work. I dont think we should destroy the profession in a vain attempt to keep our OH numbers where they are. We set the decline of inhouse OH in motion back in 1995 with the introducion of SRPs. It created an imbalance of costs in the airline industry which eventually lead to most of our competitors outsourcing large parts of their OH. How could USAIR pay a guy $35/hr to fix a coffee maker when AA was paying $20? You are seeking to continue this downward trend until we are all making MRO wages.

Sorry, but I just dont buy that you are so generous that you are willing to work for $16,000 a year less so we can maintain OH, especially when you already admitted that you beleive most of it will dissapear as new aircraft come in because most of the work will be done by line maint and we will switch to doing sectional checks like SWA and UAL.

Its obvious to pretty much everyone here that you are not who you portray yourself to be and do not have to work under the terms you advocate. Perhaps an extra few moments of silence are in order?

BK is supposed to reset onerous contracts to market rate? No it's not. It is to allow companies to restructure contracts to lower costs to enable the company to pay back creditors. Market rate has nothing to do with it.

Once again, we are UNSECURED creditors. We are last on the list of priorities. Boeing, GECAS, Airbus, and slew of banks are in front if us and the law favors them.

Blaming the TWU for the situation we are in? How original Bob. How about that vote no recommendation on the July 2010 TA, that's not the TWU's fault they said vote yes for $37/hour and keeping work in-house. You said vote no, we can "fight" for more. How's that "fight" going? We are about to have thousands of overhaul AMT casualties from this "fight". "Fight?" We are getting our asses kicked. Fortunately for you there will be no RIF notice being handed to you Bob. Way to fight with other people's jobs. What a fighter you are when you have no skin in the game.

Am I that generous? No, but if we had voted yes for the July 2010 TA we would have all been making more than UA that you cite as making more than us. I am now faced with a choice. Follow your recommendation to vote no and keep "fighting" or mitigate further negative consequences.

 

[Overspeed]

Then there was no real need in informing the poster why he paid dues, right?

I was under the assumption that dies were paid for representation, I guess not...

Yes there is. I was presenting the "silver lining" to the discussion.

 

[odie01]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/

 

[Mr Red]

BK is supposed to reset onerous contracts to market rate? No it's not. It is to allow companies to restructure contracts to lower costs to enable the company to pay back creditors. Market rate has nothing to do with it.

Once again, we are UNSECURED creditors. We are last on the list of priorities. Boeing, GECAS, Airbus, and slew of banks are in front if us and the law favors them.

Blaming the TWU for the situation we are in? How original Bob. How about that vote no recommendation on the July 2010 TA, that's not the TWU's fault they said vote yes for $37/hour and keeping work in-house. You said vote no, we can "fight" for more. How's that "fight" going? We are about to have thousands of overhaul AMT casualties from this "fight". "Fight?" We are getting our asses kicked. Fortunately for you there will be no RIF notice being handed to you Bob. Way to fight with other people's jobs. What a fighter you are when you have no skin in the game.

Everytime you bring up 2010,you fail to mention what would be given up !!!How is it a raise if your paying for it out of your own pocket!!!

 

[Mr Red]

ATTENTION!! AMFA INFO MEETING WITH AA'ers BEING HELD THIS WEEKEND AT HOTEL. COME ALL ASK ANYTHING, BUT REMAIN PROFFESSIONAL. VIDEO ALL OF IT TO SHOW HOW THE TWU WILL RESPOND. GOOD LUCK GUYS!!!!

VIdeo.....wouldn't it have been nice to have Negotiations video taped ! Im sure that to the
TWU, that it would be like garlic to a vampire.

 

[1AA]

All this discussion and it comes down to the same thing. The money was moved around and the language stayed the same. It is very simple.

VOTE NO!!!

 

[BigMac]

Only $100mil spent on this LBO scam?
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/07/weve-hit-100-million-in-fees-on-the-amr-american-airlines-bankruptcy-case.html/