TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Raptorman49]

Arent you the one who just recently said that the new aircraft will have most of the work done on the line even if this passes? Are you saying that we all should work for much less even though those jobs are going away anyway? why? So we can say how much we sacrificed when it happens? So if its going to happen anyway would the Overhaul guys who exercise their seniority be better off bumping the line at a lower wage vs a higher wage?

Exactly new planes don't need much maintenance which means less heads it sucks but we can't stop it, might as well keep our pay & benefits up for those of us who are left, AA isn't going to keep people it doesn't need regardless of how much money they make, there not humanitarians.

 

[Raptorman49]

Recently during the Hostess Bankruptcy the judge did not Abrogate their contracts so you never know anything can happen, especially when you have 5 billion in the bank & are making money in bankruptcy without the concessions.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have posted all of your lies and bogus predictions before. Not going to do it again. You said time and time again that it was a "threat", "scam", "manufactured crisis", etc...


October 1, 2011

• “I think BK is a scam.”
• “We have no control over BK and we are not a big enough component in the equation where what we do would have any influence over that decision anyway. In other words they dont stand to gain much in BK from us.”

Where does it say BK is just a threat?
Yes BK is a scam, a scam where companies get to get out of contracts .
Yes, I stand by that statement as well, the Pilots are why they went here. Had the pilots signed a deal the company probably would not have filed. We are at the bottom of the industry in hourly pay, Holidays, sick time, vacation, IOD, Overtime rules and rates, and will soon lose our pension and retiree medical. So there isnt much to gain, unless we are stupid enough to give away even more.

 

[Bob Owens]

No I don't think AA will impose the TA. I stated I think they will impose the 3/22 deal. Labor peace? Haven't we been irate for nine years already?

Even gun powder needs a spark.

 

[Overspeed]

You may want to check the UAL rates.
So AIRCON is just a data source? Really? They are an organization committed to lowering airline workers wages and providing its airline members information they can spin in order to do that. I met Robert Delucia at a conference in DC last year where I was talking to two aquaintences from the management side of the business when he came up, introduced himself as "I'm the guy who gives you all the info you need to scare away your unions". he didnt know I was union.





Would it be fair to say that the TWU is a group thats focused on driving aircraft mechanics wages down? Every other group will come out the other side among their peers, none of them are at the bottom, some are only below Southwest, what you would call the top of the industry. Obviously some people in this organization have something against us. Layoffs suck, but they are temporary, when the TWU had financial difficulties did they cut everyones pay? No, they laid people off. yet they tell us to accept over 20% less than post BK UAL, and language that would allow the company to outsource more than they could at this point in time to supposedly save jobs.





Arent you the one who just recently said that the new aircraft will have most of the work done on the line even if this passes? Are you saying that we all should work for much less even though those jobs are going away anyway? why? So we can say how much we sacrificed when it happens? So if its going to happen anyway would the Overhaul guys who exercise their seniority be better off bumping the line at a lower wage vs a higher wage?

It is a data source. One of many. If you guys didn't fact check with other CBAs and contacts well, looks like you screwed up on the negotiating committee didn't you? Bob, why withhold info that can benefit our members and if some guy tells you he has the info to scare unions then who cares? The pay rates are in the union CBAs and most of them are in the internet. I have read a copy of the UA CBA. It looks the same to me? Did you uncover something?

No it would not be fair to say the TWU is driving down wages. We are not accepting 20% below UA post BK wages. The current wage is the eight years after BK. You are comparing a CBA that was negotiated after they recovered from BK restructuring. Apples and oranges. Layoffs do suck, will you be offering to take someone's place Bob? No, so that's why you are for them.

Bob, you recommended voting down a TA that would have paid us $37/hour two years ago and now you are crying about the situation we are in? You thought that one out didn't you. You were told that new fleets were coming online and stated that was BS and the white spaces are filled! Work for everyone! AA lies! Now you subscribe to the new fleet, less work theory? Uh, okay. Fact is if you had listened and recommended a yes vote back in 7/2010 we would be gearing up for the next negotiations even if we were in BK. And we would be starting at $37/hour instead of $33/hour in the discussions.

Sounds like that no vote recommendation bit us in the behind.

 

[Bob Owens]

But that's the point, engines are mostly material and not labor. And if the engines are under a PbtH deal then it probably won't be as big an impact to jobs as you think. If the TAESL engine expense is $500M annually and only $50M of that is labor yes the OSS % could go up dramatically however the jobs loss would not be as great as if were airframe. So if the rate is adjusted "accordingly" then it is up to you smart guys in the room to make sure it is adjusted "accordingly" so we don't get screwed.

The cost will depend on where they send the work , I would imagine HEASL would be much cheaper than a domestic PBTH deal which allows more to be outsourced.

But you admit that it increases the cap above 35% then? So the "cap' is full of 'ifs".

So if the rate is adjusted "accordingly" then it is up to you smart guys in the room to make sure it is adjusted "accordingly" so we don't get screwed.

Hard to do when you already handed them a blank check by voting YES.

We discussed putting together a propsal that would have a Hard number as far as title I headcount but the YES men decided to just accept the company offer "as is". Stores went back after we voted to bring this back and front loaded the increases, upped the skill pay, included language to make the skill pay compoundable and kept the extra week of vacation. I believe their deal would actually put their hourly wage near the top of the industry while ours would condem us to the bottom for the next six years.

 

[Duke787]

Congradulations to the TWU for having the Teamsters, IAM, and a non-union shop negotiate our next pay raise, 3 years from now. Why am I paying dues to the TWU. Over $15k in union dues paid in my career at AA, and I get half pay for a sick day and to have a NON-UNION shop, determining my next pay raise, all the while, the TWU made it even harder for them to get a pay raise by keeping our pay so low.

 

[Bob Owens]

I read a lot.

Obviously, but where do you get the stuff you read?

 

[Overspeed]

Funny how you love to use managements vocabulary. Apples and organges indeed.

More Lies.
I never said we would get a better deal, I said we must fight for a better deal, but the International would not even ask for a release despite the fact that normally a release is sought (and granted)after a TA rejection.

When did I say the Judge will be nice to us? Never. You have repeatedly said he will abrogate but you can not say for certian. What is the basis for abrogation if our offer met their request to cease the pension, do away with retiree medical and lay off as many as they targeted? In every other measure we are at the bottom of the industry.

Market rates, if the Judge abrogates we make the companys life as rough as they make ours and push for Market Rates in a PEB. No its never been done before, but no company has ever gone into BK before with over $5 billion and abrogated contracts of workers who were below market rates either.

You're a leader and like it or not, your management. Labor management and you make tough choices and many will be unpopular. And apples and oranges terminology was used in my Algebra class in school.

Semantics. Fight or no fight we are screwed and now you are trying to push the blame on others. Whether or not it is the Int'l, NMB, the courts, management it's the game you are playing. You sound like Rasheed Wallace! Judge Lane is going to T you up pretty soon. I don't like the rules either however I understand they are there and you can't change them while you are playing the game. The laws are what they are and they favor the corporations and the banks not us. Yes it sucks but we should have fought to change the rules before we started the fight.

99.9% sure he will abrogate and I would put money on it but Vegas is giving even money. Most people, yes and no voters agree he will abrogate the CBA. And Judge Lane does not care if we are at the bottom, he is not guided by any law that takes that in to account only that the reorg has a good chance of repaying the creditors.

Again, doesn't matter how much AA has in cash. If AA did not have the $5B they would have gotten the necessary restructuring funds through DIP financing and would have probably filed an 1113e to cut our pay early in the process. Because they filed with more in-house cash we have a good argument to maintain our wages. No airline that entered in to BK came out without a pay cut. We will be the first. It's not about market rate, it's about how to pay back AA's debts. If that means keeping us below market rates to pay back those debts well...Judge Lane can do that brother.

 

[Overspeed]

Even gun powder needs a spark.

Nice. A veiled threat.

CO1 and 2, UA, US, and NW had plenty to go ape #### over but they didn't.

 

[Overspeed]

Congradulations to the TWU for having the Teamsters, IAM, and a non-union shop negotiate our next pay raise, 3 years from now. Why am I paying dues to the TWU. Over $15k in union dues paid in my career at AA, and I get half pay for a sick day and to have a NON-UNION shop, determining my next pay raise, all the while, the TWU made it even harder for them to get a pay raise by keeping our pay so low.

You are paying dues for the tax deduction.

 

[DNTULSA]

Hey underspeed,

Why don't you brag on the twu and their negotiating expertise?

Are you actually anonymous in drag?

 

[Bob Owens]

No it would not be fair to say the TWU is driving down wages. We are not accepting 20% below UA post BK wages. The current wage is the eight years after BK. You are comparing a CBA that was negotiated after they recovered from BK restructuring. Apples and oranges. Layoffs do suck, will you be offering to take someone's place Bob? No, so that's why you are for them.

Did UAL go through BK or not? The answer ius yes, so UALs current wages are post BK wages and when we add in the value for Holidays, Vacation and sick time our compensation under the terms offered are 21% below UALs current terms. UAL starts negotiating for a new deal in September, Southwests contract becomes amendable next month, USAIR is in Mediation. We make less than all of them. Are you claiming that us accepting this ten year deal, with 6 more years left on it will not put downward pressure on negotiations at those carriers? We gave up 25% just because USAIR and UAL filed for BK.

No I wont take someone elses place, but I will do my best to make this a good place to come back to. When I got laid off I never said that everyone should take a paycut so i wouldnt get laid off, I'd rather have something good to come back to. You seem to want to destroy the profession by driving compensation as low as it can go under the false promise of saving jobs. You arent saving jobs, you are destroying the profession.

 

[Bob Owens]

Nice. A veiled threat.

CO1 and 2, UA, US, and NW had plenty to go ape #### over but they didn't.

In real terms their wages and benefits were much better than ours are. US, UA and NW all were after or around when we simply gave up 25%, what was their arguement when we already lowered what was established as acceptable pay for the craft? You also need to remember that in real terms our compensation has declined at least another 12% since 2003.

 

[Bob Owens]

You're a leader and like it or not, your management. Labor management and you make tough choices and many will be unpopular. And apples and oranges terminology was used in my Algebra class in school.

Semantics. Fight or no fight we are screwed and now you are trying to push the blame on others. Whether or not it is the Int'l, NMB, the courts, management it's the game you are playing. You sound like Rasheed Wallace! Judge Lane is going to T you up pretty soon. I don't like the rules either however I understand they are there and you can't change them while you are playing the game. The laws are what they are and they favor the corporations and the banks not us. Yes it sucks but we should have fought to change the rules before we started the fight.

99.9% sure he will abrogate and I would put money on it but Vegas is giving even money. Most people, yes and no voters agree he will abrogate the CBA. And Judge Lane does not care if we are at the bottom, he is not guided by any law that takes that in to account only that the reorg has a good chance of repaying the creditors.

Again, doesn't matter how much AA has in cash. If AA did not have the $5B they would have gotten the necessary restructuring funds through DIP financing and would have probably filed an 1113e to cut our pay early in the process. Because they filed with more in-house cash we have a good argument to maintain our wages. No airline that entered in to BK came out without a pay cut. We will be the first. It's not about market rate, it's about how to pay back AA's debts. If that means keeping us below market rates to pay back those debts well...Judge Lane can do that brother.

We are creditors.