TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Vortilon]

He has a lot to deal with, AMFA drive, getting over failed AMP drive (AMFA in drag), defending Owens, trying to shoot down the TA, attacking the Int'l reps, tracking all his distortings of the truth, trying to explain away how AMFA lost over 20,000 of their members jobs, blaming the AFL-CIO for everything, etc...

And somewhere in between he is fixing aircraft apparently.

As it is, you got some balls even showing up on this BB! It's pretty obvious you don't have to work under this proposal from what you're posting. Any way this goes, your beloved TWU, is gonna be toast. Your TWU pawns in Tulsa will no longer be able to roll call vote anything in along with the brain washed title two sellouts.

 

[Raptorman49]

I think the TWU is doing as well as any union placed in these circumstances could do. I'm voting YES!

Oh I don't know about that, the other Airlines did much better in Bankruptcy than we are doing, they have significantly better pay & benefits than we do, remember there was a time when United/Continental, AA & Delta/Northwest were very close in Pay & benefits & all have been through bankruptcy too, so why are we so much lower than them now ?? Some believe that the TWU has a lot to do with that.

Can you explain why we are so much lower than United/Continental & Delta/Northwest in pay & benefits if the TWU has nothing to do with that ??

How come the TWU didn't send out a survey asking Members what they want in a contract & tally up the results to see what is the most important to the Majority ?? , being as several contracts have failed obviously they don't know what the Majority really want.

 

[Frank Szabo]

The way things are going even taking a needed sick day would leave one wondering what the hell is going on at work - I'd certainly hate to miss any of the festivities.

If this turd should pass (and I don't have any feel at all of it), I'll be at the front of the line for the early-outs. The company/union (one in the same) knew from the voting stats what needed to be done. They really did a good job on the first try - they almost designed a 50% + 1 and missed by less than 6%. Rather impressive for a group that actually doesn't give a damn what the rank and files thinks.

Net effect - line wants overhaul gone and, with the new aircraft, will almost accomplish that - temporarily. CPAs typically haven't a clue re: reality and once it becomes apparent the capacity to overhaul aircraft doesn't exist for an additional 600+ aircraft (and won't for some time), the work will all be trickled back into a stateside company controlled facility, as is happening at UA, DL, SW, and a couple others - but, there is this need of those with the MBAs to constantly attempt to reinvent the friggin' wheel, and those attempts will end in the same way they have in the past - with the worker paying the price for the executive's bonus quest.

Leaving the industry is the only permanent fix, not for the industry, but for the sanity of those within it and besides - I believe one can get more holidays (>5) by sweeping the floor at a different company.

 

[olderguyAMT]

So Bob you are saying jobs are going away if we get the 787 or the Airbus? So do we roll over? We have always worked on anything we fly. Why would we even think outside that. That should be a non starter. We need to make sure this current money grab by management results in the lowest possible return to them. A merger needs to happen forced by the creditors.

The co. and its ultimate dream team super lawers want to hammer us down so far that we can't get back up. You are spot on, with the money grab by Horton and his cronies. But, the money grab would still happen with a merger. Now that D Parker has made deals with AA unions, he has a trump card to be played in BK court. The point is that unions will fare better with Parker than with Horton. It is a complicated situation, with the AA 18 month exclusivity deadline looming over Horton's head, and that is good for Parker. But, what impact will the Creditors Com. have, and how will they play their cards??
The BK laws changed after the United BK fiasco, and now AA has a new set of rules to deal with. Delay could work in our favor with a NO vote.
Layoffs will happen with a Yes or a NO. Will the layoffs be less with a NO? Remember that exclusivity deadline.

A Yes vote will produce the unprecidented work rule changes, which could have an impact on other carriers labor contracts.

Big changes to future medical copays and costs must be included in any comparison of pay!

But the question to examine is this: Do we have a strong union or a wimpy union? In consideration of the abrogation fallout from imposed pay cuts and work rule changes, could and will the TWU reverse the impending massive work rule changes in future negotiations? Do they have the gonads for that struggle??????? Hmmmmmm......

 

[Raptorman49]

As it is, you got some balls even showing up on this BB! It's pretty obvious you don't have to work under this proposal from what you're posting. Any way this goes, your beloved TWU, is gonna be toast. Your TWU pawns in Tulsa will no longer be able to roll call vote anything in along with the brain washed title two sellouts.

Keep in mind that regardless of which Union we are in Title two are part of the Mechanic craft & class along with Aircraft cleaners, parts washers, OSM etc. so they will still be with us and as such can still be elected as officers etc, some title groups won't be with us anymore but they will be.

 

[TWU informer]

I think the TWU is doing as well as any union placed in these circumstances could do. I'm voting YES!

Even the weakest union in the industry should be able to provide full and complete language before asking the membership to vote.

There are several very important issues with open ended "we will meet for 30 days after D.O.S" to negotiated the agreements is pure and simple poor unionism, poor leadership, and should be considered a crime.

The handling of the Bankruptcy Court Proof of Claims and the confusion across the Tulsa Base over the handling of these forms can only be called piss poor and should also be considered a crime.

And you think the TWU is doing as well as any union can?
Are you serious?

I dont see the Pilots and Flight Attendands looking so disorganzied and ignorant.

I disagree with your opinion, and I think the TWU is handling this matter about as bad as it could possibly get.

If you feel compelled to vote yes, at least admit that it is only out of fear, and has nothing to do with the way this debacle has been handled.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Oh I don't know about that, the other Airlines did much better in Bankruptcy than we are doing, they have significantly better pay & benefits than we do, remember there was a time when United/Continental, AA & Delta/Northwest were very close in Pay & benefits & all have been through bankruptcy too, so why are we so much lower than them now ?? Some believe that the TWU has a lot to do with that.

The international negotiated for their benefit (more people employed, more dues income) - not ours.

How come the TWU didn't send out a survey asking Members what they want in a contract & tally up the results to see what is the most important to the Majority ?? , being as several contracts have failed obviously they don't know what the Majority really want.

Pardon, but the international knows exactly what the membership wants and also realizes what we want is in direct conflict with its financial requirements, therefore ...

 

[AC Tynker]

The way things are going even taking a needed sick day would leave one wondering what the hell is going on at work - I'd certainly hate to miss any of the festivities.

If this turd should pass (and I don't have any feel at all of it), I'll be at the front of the line for the early-outs. The company/union (one in the same) knew from the voting stats what needed to be done. They really did a good job on the first try - they almost designed a 50% + 1 and missed by less than 6%. Rather impressive for a group that actually doesn't give a damn what the rank and files thinks.

Net effect - line wants overhaul gone and, with the new aircraft, will almost accomplish that - temporarily. CPAs typically haven't a clue re: reality and once it becomes apparent the capacity to overhaul aircraft doesn't exist for an additional 600+ aircraft (and won't for some time), the work will all be trickled back into a stateside company controlled facility, as is happening at UA, DL, SW, and a couple others - but, there is this need of those with the MBAs to constantly attempt to reinvent the friggin' wheel, and those attempts will end in the same way they have in the past - with the worker paying the price for the executive's bonus quest.

Leaving the industry is the only permanent fix, not for the industry, but for the sanity of those within it and besides - I believe one can get more holidays (>5) by sweeping the floor at a different company.

For what it's worth I liked your post Frank, nice job in My Opinion. There was only one statement I didn't totally agree with but it's not important enough to debate.

 

[Raptorman49]

Leaving the industry is the only permanent fix, not for the industry, but for the sanity of those within it.

I definitely agree with you here, with the average age of TWU employee's being 48 most of us will probably be gone in the next 10 years & AA will start over with a new young work force, I for one am looking forward to getting out of the Aviation business & Unions, the Airlines & the Government are in collusion against workers, that's a tough combination to beat as Airline employee's are finding out the hard way.

 

[AC Tynker]

I definitely agree with you here, with the average age of TWU employee's being 48 most of us will probably be gone in the next 10 years & AA will start over with a new young work force, I for one am looking forward to getting out of the Aviation business & Unions, the Airlines & the Government are in collusion against workers, that's a tough combination to beat as Airline employee's are finding out the hard way.

Just not what it once was for me either, I'd like to get out of commercial aviation myself but hopefully on my own terms lol

 

[Raptorman49]

The international negotiated for their benefit (more people employed, more dues income) - not ours.



Pardon, but the international knows exactly what the membership wants and also realizes what we want is in direct conflict with its financial requirements, therefore ...

Yeah your right they don't care what we want, their agenda is in opposition to the Majority of the Members agenda, guess that's why the contracts keep failing.

 

[odie01]

All,

From what I can find upon a closer examination, these are the areas where changes were made. Some language has changed and others were simply lined out language was removed. Please remember, the one dated July 10, 2012 is the “Official” T/A.

· VI. Benefits under 401(k) added wording to Eligible Compensation
· Attachment A Letter of Memorandum 20 language changed in 3[sup]rd[/sup] paragraph from using “CPI” to “ECI”
· Attachment B Letter of Memorandum xx language changed in 3[sup]rd[/sup] paragraph from using “CPI” to “ECI”
· Calculation example to Attachment B to reflect .55 line premium
· Changed language in Attachment 1.2 under scope to read:
The parties agree that nothing in Article I or in this letter prevents the company from
contracting out work currently or previously performed in house, subject to the other
restrictions of this agreement.

These were the changes I could find in a quick comparison. We apologize for the confusion, the wrong packet was inadvertently scanned yesterday. It still doesn’t change the fact that this T/A is no better than the one we voted down and I would expect that the same would happen with this T/A. If you know of anyone who did not take the time to vote the last time, please encourage them to do their part in controlling our future in this industry. Right now all we are doing is going backwards. If we don’t continue to stand together, it does no good to call ourselves Union.

Continuing to fight,

KP

Kenneth E. Powell
Section Vice President Aircraft Maintenance
Air Transport Local 567
Transport Workers Union of America AFL-CIO

 

[Raptorman49]

Just not what it once was for me either, I'd like to get out of commercial aviation myself but hopefully on my own terms lol

I agree being pushed out of this tailspin plane without a Parachute wouldn't be fun at all .....LOL

Sucks for the folks who thought they Parachuted out safely & are now finding out that they weren't actually on the ground yet.

 

[Overspeed]

Perhaps you dont feel that we should be paid at the very least as much as United Mechanics are paid but I do. But then again you dont have to live under this deal, we do.

Why do you feel that we should settle for around $8/hr in value less than what UAL currently gets paid? To keep headcount numbers high so the International reps dont have to give up their membership paid for cars?(Need I remind you that the International cut heads before they cut pay or benefits?)

UAL currently tops out at $38.40 with the Taxi Premium, ($40.40 if you inclide the Geo Pay).
We would be topping out at $34.10
But its the other things we dont get that add up and drive the difference in pay up to $16,495.

For a 20 year line mechanic our vacation package would be worth $5456
Same criteria at UAL is worth $7680 (they get one more week every year than we do

Our Holiday package would be worth $682
At UAL its worth $3686.40

Our annual sick pay package would be worth as much as $1364
At UAL its worth $3686.40

Our annual wage based on 2080 hours would be a max of $70,928 vs UALs $79,872, add in those benefits and it comes out to a "Total Value" of $78430 at AA vs $94,925 at UAL.

And, thats only the money, the work rules is another horror story. The company basically wants non-union work rules where they dictate what the rules are.

UAL is not at the top of the industry either.

This is unacceptable. UAL starts negotiations in a few months, USAIR is in Mediation and Southwest becomes amendable in 2013, if we vote this in we once again hurt the profession. In the name of saving a few jobs at AA (that usually end up going away anyway) we would be helping to drive down wages of ALL mechanics across the industry. Overspeed is a liar, he is not who he portrays himself to be and he cares nothing about the profession.

BTW, the vote was rigged from the start. The International got two fleet service clerks who only ever show up when the International needs their Yes vote, to all of a sudden appear at Negotiations. Just to make certain the vote went their way they called for the Roll Call.

The Five Cornerstone cities and AFW all voted against this. Hopefully there will be enough guys in Tulsa who care about the profession for another rejection.

Bob your argument is flawed right from the first sentence. UA mechanics now make more than AA AMTs because 1) smart people like you recommended voting against the July 2010 TA and 2) it took them over nine years AFTER BK in 2003 to finally get past us. You are comparing UA's current wages that were negotiated in a post BK environment to AA's first BK contract. Why not compare apples to apples? Why because your argument us shredded. UA mechanics got slammed in BK with an 1113e motion that immediately brought on pay and benefit cuts totaling almost 20%. Does our agreement have that? Yes benefits are getting hammered but has any airline in BK ever kept their existing benefits? No. Will some how AA become the first? Doubtful. The APA has stated that Judge Lane will not write a contract but will simply abrogate and that he will not give direction to AA on what they can and cannot do. Lane gave AA the green light for more shafting. When will we get to negotiate after abrogation? One month? One year? Three years?

"Rigged?" Bob, every time something doesn't go your way you say it was rigged. You blame the Int'l, the judge, Wall Street, AMR management, consultants, Congress, the AFL-CIO, TUL, other unions, etc... Do you ever own anything? The roll call vote has been in existence for how many years? Long before we were here. So people came in and voted that you don't agree with? You call the TWU process rigged but you want to rig it so it goes your way. Only allow people in who will vote Bob's agenda. And what is Bob's agenda? Back in the BB you posted with glee that we were going to get AMFA and now you are a TWU President. Bob's Agenda sounds like you will do anything and say anything to get a select few top pay. Who is that select few Bob? Line and half of Overhaul? Line and a quarter of Overhaul? Just Line?

Bob we are in the BK process that YOU said was just a threat. Admit it Bob, you were wrong and now we have to work through the mess that is left. Thousands are losing their jobs and we are all at the mercy of judge and a process that does not give a damn about the worker. BK only cares about creditors and banks. Your "Vote No Until We Get Something Better" Plan isn't working. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

 

[Overspeed]

Oh I don't know about that, the other Airlines did much better in Bankruptcy than we are doing, they have significantly better pay & benefits than we do, remember there was a time when United/Continental, AA & Delta/Northwest were very close in Pay & benefits & all have been through bankruptcy too, so why are we so much lower than them now ?? Some believe that the TWU has a lot to do with that.

Can you explain why we are so much lower than United/Continental & Delta/Northwest in pay & benefits if the TWU has nothing to do with that ??

How come the TWU didn't send out a survey asking Members what they want in a contract & tally up the results to see what is the most important to the Majority ?? , being as several contracts have failed obviously they don't know what the Majority really want.

"Better in BK?" Really? Where are your facts? United got smacked with an immediate 1113e that cut pay approximately 20% without a vote. Did that happen at AA? CO negotiated concessions like us without going to BK a third time. NW better in BK? Didn't AMFA take on management and lose all but 900 AMT jobs and a huge pay cut? NW better in BK? Uh, no. DL didn't have to ask, they just took and were paid lower than AA until just a few years ago. That's 2004 until 2010 or six years making less than us. Better in BK?

Need to check you facts.