TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[Bob Owens]

Alright let's discuss this "rumor" a little more since maybe a few people would like to give it legs?

First let's talk about this Union Official? Does this union official play golf with Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, Al Hemmenway or Jim Weel? Those are some of the names who would be able to give an impression of what they are going to ask for under the JCBA talks. Otherwise I'm not even sure that the IAM or TWU have even formed their committees yet for who is going to be a part of those negotiations.

The only thing that does make some sense would be raises. Next year we will all be going up to whatever the industry average is by comparison to Delta and United. So anything we gain above that will be up to you to decide if you consider it meager or not? If we gain the highest base wage over those other two airlines is that good enough or not? I'm sure many if you will say no since it won't match Fedex or UPS (Package delivery companies)

Less benefits? How much lower do you think we can go? Nah, doesn't make sense, sorry.

Medical. The IAM contracts currently have the lowest medical rates in the industry (Subsidized somewhat by part timers paying double the rate) Add to that though because of the merger we have a much greater amount of people who can be put under plans and that could even cause the rates to go down? Already if you look at Jetnet the company has announced plan changes that are an improvement over 2014. What the monthly charges will be we should know in a few weeks?

http://my.aa.com/en/home

As far as outsourcing. Stick with what Bob just posted.

Well, going by the argument we have heard from Videtich, Overspeed etc if AA is posting $3+billion a year in profits while Fed Ex is only posting $2 billion then why shouldn't we expect what they are getting?
 
Fed Ex and UPS were always cargo and we used to make more than non-union Fed Ex and just as much as UPS. 
 
Company already told the benefits committee rates are going up, they didn't want to release it yet because they wanted to prepare their managers. I guess give them the schpeal to try and sooth the masses as they give them another screwing, "Yes we are making billions but we have to screw you on the medical because...., -they will tell the US people because of the guys at AA, they will tell the AA people " we are making improvements to the plans". Improvements? ( I see you are already selling it for management. ) Really? Normally the only so called "improvements" we see are when after the company does the math they raise coverage for things that never happen while increasing the rates everyone will pay. Such as raising the lifetime cap. If they see that nobody or only a few exceed the lifetime cap they raise it. Because it costs them nothing to raise it because nobody exceeded it, then they raise what everyone pays into it because they are giving you "more coverage", in their sales pitch they "improved coverage". Ok Obamacare did away with the caps, so now they have to be more creative, which MERK does very well. I believe if you look at any of the so called "improvements" in real terms they provide little to no value but its used as an excuse to extract real dollars from all the members. The net result will be that we will be paying more and in return get things we will never use. So the company gets more. Parkers got to get to that $2 billion in synergies one way or another, and the easiest way has been for him to take it out of the employees. 
 
You are aware that Rumors have been an effective tool at getting guys in Tulsa to vote away the profession and that some in the 514 administration reportedly are very much in favor of the Alliance. For one thing, it leaves 514 intact and splits up the line. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Well, going by the argument we have heard from Videtich, Overspeed etc if AA is posting $3+billion a year in profits while Fed Ex is only posting $2 billion then why shouldn't we expect what they are getting?
 
Fed Ex and UPS were always cargo and we used to make more than them and just as much as UPS. 

Go for it and I hope you get it. If say you were already at the top of the industry comparing only Delta and United as the company wants, how much more per hour "base" are they making?

I know that you "mostly" care about what line mechanics are making but do those companies do any OH? I'm guessing that they also get license premiums as well.
 
 
Company already told the benefits committee rates are going up, they didn't want to release it yet because they wanted to prepare their managers. I guess give them the schpeal to try and sooth the masses as they give them another screwing, "Yes we are making billions but we have to screw you on the medical because...., (they will tell the US people because of the guys at AA), not sure yet what they will tell the people at AA, "You voted for it and we can?" "Oh but we can fix this (if you give us other concessions in a joint agreement)"? 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see? Can't wait to retire to Latin America to get this sick USA medical monkey off my back.
 
You are aware that Rumors have been an effective tool at getting guys in Tulsa to vote away the profession and that some in the 514 administration reportedly are very much in favor of the Alliance. For one thing, it leaves 514 intact and splits up the line. 

We may not have the same viewpoints at the moment Bob but I can't stand rumors no matter what side of the agenda it assists. From what you have said though aren't you going to be the dominant group in Joint talks next go around?

P.S. You did see that I put out my name since for some reason you wanted me to? B)

 

[Vortilon]

According to what we were told last week, by one of our local union reps - who had just returned from the companies presentation on what changes are coming regarding our benefits.  Our costs are going up, and the plan choices will be fewer.  He used his family of 4 as an example of how much change we could expect - choosing one of the more popular plans; anyway, the cost would increase by about $60.00 per month.  This will help negate the meager raise we will be getting this month. 
 
The industry average wage due next year doesn't address the lost vacation (2 weeks), the sick time accrual, the sick time pay on the first day, the lack of reasonable shift differential pay, the Ioss of longevity pay, the loss of double time pay after 4 hours of OT worked, the loss of 5 holidays, the loss of holiday pay at double time and a half.  The loss of these benefits and more, are huge for the AMTs at AA.  Never forget what this POS union helped give away.  Anyway, it's hard to get excited about a simple raise that will end up being a zero sum increase to the company down the line.

 

[Bob Owens]

 

Go for it and I hope you get it. If say you were already at the top of the industry comparing only Delta and United as the company wants, how much more per hour "base" are they making?

I know that you "mostly" care about what line mechanics are making but do those companies do any OH? I'm guessing that they also get license premiums as well. 

 I suppose thats its fair to say you only care about what FSCs make in Class I stations since you supported shutting down all the class IIs to keep your wage near the top of the industry.  UAL is in negotiations, have been for three years, we signed a deal that locks us in to the bottom for six years. Its going to be hard to make gains when the biggest carrier in the industry pays much less. factoring in Holidays, Vacation, OT, sick time we are at least $10 k a year behind UALs last contract with our current one. UAL is on a three year wage freeze due to prolonged negotiations and they are still well ahead of us. 
 
 


We may not have the same viewpoints at the moment Bob but I can't stand rumors no matter what side of the agenda it assists. From what you have said though aren't you going to be the dominant group in Joint talks next go around?
 
If we went in as one Union the line would be as big as Tulsa, but not probably bigger than OH, depending on how the US OH facilities were handled. The Alliance has the right to do as they please with any of us. We hear nothing from any IAM Local officials, if the Alliance wants to silence 591 they can simply throw us all in the IAM, we have zero say in the matter. You think thats fine, and you support that but I may remind you they can do the same to fleet. Any time they get a Local that does not go with their plan of giving AA whatever AA wants they simply swap those members between Unions and none of the members have a say in it. Don't be surprised if the TWU Locals decide that its only fair that we all pay the same dues and raise the dues to match the IAM rates either, 591 has no need to raise dues but many of the Fleet Locals are hurting financially.  Once they roll us all into the IAMPF they figure they will have us all bound to this Alliance no matter how bad of a job they do, look at what just happened at US a year ago. They had a representation vote and they stayed, and what did the IAM get them in return for their Loyalty? Bottom of the industry pay, no profit sharing and we can work on their airplanes. They gave away the store, they gave away half the little leverage we would have in Joint negotiations by agreeing to let us work their equipment. They told them they would get a better deal in joint then gave away the only leverage they had. Pitiful. 
 
​No I didn't see your name. 

 

[Bob Owens]

According to what we were told last week, by one of our local union reps - who had just returned from the companies presentation on what changes are coming regarding our benefits.  Our costs are going up, and the plan choices will be fewer.  He used his family of 4 as an example of how much change we could expect - choosing one of the more popular plans; anyway, the cost would increase by about $60.00 per month.  This will help negate the meager raise we will be getting this month. 
 
The industry average wage due next year doesn't address the lost vacation (2 weeks), the sick time accrual, the sick time pay on the first day, the lack of reasonable shift differential pay, the Ioss of longevity pay, the loss of double time pay after 4 hours of OT worked, the loss of 5 holidays, the loss of holiday pay at double time and a half.  The loss of these benefits and more, are huge for the AMTs at AA.  Never forget what this POS union helped give away.  Anyway, it's hard to get excited about a simple raise that will end up being a zero sum increase to the company down the line.

You forgot straight time pay for training, even if its done on OT. 

 

[swamt]

Alright let's discuss this "rumor" a little more since maybe a few people would like to give it legs?

First let's talk about this Union Official? Does this union official play golf with Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, Al Hemmenway or Jim Weel? Those are some of the names who would be able to give an impression of what they are going to ask for under the JCBA talks. Otherwise I'm not even sure that the IAM or TWU have even formed their committees yet for who is going to be a part of those negotiations.

The only thing that does make some sense would be raises. Next year we will all be going up to whatever the industry average is by comparison to Delta and United. So anything we gain above that will be up to you to decide if you consider it meager or not? If we gain the highest base wage over those other two airlines is that good enough or not? I'm sure many if you will say no since it won't match Fedex or UPS (Package delivery companies)

Less benefits? How much lower do you think we can go? Nah, doesn't make sense, sorry.

Medical. The IAM contracts currently have the lowest medical rates in the industry (Subsidized somewhat by part timers paying double the rate) Add to that though because of the merger we have a much greater amount of people who can be put under plans and that could even cause the rates to go down? Already if you look at Jetnet the company has announced plan changes that are an improvement over 2014. What the monthly charges will be we should know in a few weeks?

http://my.aa.com/en/home

As far as outsourcing. Stick with what Bob just posted.

"Package Delivery Companies?"  Really?  Only a match to them?  Your right, they are hauling packages.  You guys are hauling human lives and are responsible for thousands upon thousands of lives on board.  With so much responsibility wouldn't you think we should get paid more than the package haulers?

 

[NYer]

Well, going by the argument we have heard from Videtich, Overspeed etc if AA is posting $3+billion a year in profits while Fed Ex is only posting $2 billion then why shouldn't we expect what they are getting?
 
Fed Ex and UPS were always cargo and we used to make more than non-union Fed Ex and just as much as UPS. 
 
Company already told the benefits committee rates are going up, they didn't want to release it yet because they wanted to prepare their managers. I guess give them the schpeal to try and sooth the masses as they give them another screwing, "Yes we are making billions but we have to screw you on the medical because...., -they will tell the US people because of the guys at AA, they will tell the AA people " we are making improvements to the plans". Improvements? ( I see you are already selling it for management. ) Really? Normally the only so called "improvements" we see are when after the company does the math they raise coverage for things that never happen while increasing the rates everyone will pay. Such as raising the lifetime cap. If they see that nobody or only a few exceed the lifetime cap they raise it. Because it costs them nothing to raise it because nobody exceeded it, then they raise what everyone pays into it because they are giving you "more coverage", in their sales pitch they "improved coverage". Ok Obamacare did away with the caps, so now they have to be more creative, which MERK does very well. I believe if you look at any of the so called "improvements" in real terms they provide little to no value but its used as an excuse to extract real dollars from all the members. The net result will be that we will be paying more and in return get things we will never use. So the company gets more. Parkers got to get to that $2 billion in synergies one way or another, and the easiest way has been for him to take it out of the employees. 
 
You are aware that Rumors have been an effective tool at getting guys in Tulsa to vote away the profession and that some in the 514 administration reportedly are very much in favor of the Alliance. For one thing, it leaves 514 intact and splits up the line.

How many licensed aircraft mechanics are there at FedEx and UPS?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

How many licensed aircraft mechanics are there at FedEx and UPS?

All of them are paid more than you.

That is what is the AA TWU is all about. Lots of low paid dues payers.

I have always said that I would rather have been laid off and come back to top wages, than to continue to give up concessions just to keep a job. All that does is cheapen the profession.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
I suppose thats its fair to say you only care about what FSCs make in Class I stations since you supported shutting down all the class IIs to keep your wage near the top of the industry. 

I would love it if you can find where or when I have ever said something like that or ever would say something like that? What I have said is that I would like to see COLA's so we don't have to worry about the company wanting to continue to go after small stations because they can outsource them to the lowest bidder and people keep signing up to do those jobs.

I've also stated quite clearly that you should be making more (LGA, JFK) than people who work in TUL whether they want to hear that or not.
 
 
If we went in as one Union the line would be as big as Tulsa, but not probably bigger than OH, depending on how the US OH facilities were handled. The Alliance has the right to do as they please with any of us. We hear nothing from any IAM Local officials, if the Alliance wants to silence 591 they can simply throw us all in the IAM, we have zero say in the matter.

You think thats fine, and you support that

NO I do not support that!


but I may remind you they can do the same to fleet. Any time they get a Local that does not go with their plan of giving AA whatever AA wants they simply swap those members between Unions and none of the members have a say in it.

I thought you only a few weeks ago said that you liked Harry Lombardo and thought he should be given a chance? Have you changed your mind already?



 Don't be surprised if the TWU Locals decide that its only fair that we all pay the same dues and raise the dues to match the IAM rates either,

The IAM dues are different depending on where you work. Some are lower, most are higher and they're supposedly tied into the rate of inflation. I'd like to see them actually change it to the way we do it. 

591 has no need to raise dues but many of the Fleet Locals are hurting financially.  Once they roll us all into the IAMPF

I don't believe that we are going to be FORCED into the IAMPF. If they try to do that just tell me where to go with my bag of tomatoes? I will support people being able to choose which one they like better and want though.

they figure they will have us all bound to this Alliance no matter how bad of a job they do, look at what just happened at US a year ago. They had a representation vote and they stayed, and what did the IAM get them in return for their Loyalty? Bottom of the industry pay, no profit sharing and we can work on their airplanes. They gave away the store, they gave away half the little leverage we would have in Joint negotiations by agreeing to let us work their equipment. They told them they would get a better deal in joint then gave away the only leverage they had. Pitiful. 
 
​No I didn't see your name. 

Go back in the thread and look. You called me out and I didn't shy away and now you're saying that you didn't notice? C'mon.
 
 

 

[WeAAsles]

"Package Delivery Companies?"  Really?  Only a match to them?  Your right, they are hauling packages.  You guys are hauling human lives and are responsible for thousands upon thousands of lives on board.  With so much responsibility wouldn't you think we should get paid more than the package haulers?

Absolutely 100% agree that you should be paid more. 100%

 

[TRAVIS]

Absolutely 100% agree that you should be paid more. 100%

BINGO!   The IAM AND TWU have FAILED the AMT's.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

It is nice to see you back on. You seemed to go quiet for a bit. 
 
Have you been seeing this around the base?

I am trying to not post anything unless I have something worth sharing.  I do read this blog every day because I get a lot of information from it.  I don't want to be the guy who responds to every post just because.  So although you may not see my posts, I am here.

 

[NYer]

BINGO!   The IAM AND TWU have FAILED the AMT's.[/

All of them are paid more than you.
That is what is the AA TWU is all about. Lots of low paid dues payers.
I have always said that I would rather have been laid off and come back to top wages, than to continue to give up concessions just to keep a job. All that does is cheapen the profession.

So you don't want to say how many mechanics are working at FedEx and UPS. That's telling.

Here is another question. Why doesn't the AMFA contracts include fedEx and UPS in their wage adjustment comparisons?

The AMFA supporters always talk about FedEx and UPS, but their chosen replacement for the TWU and IAM doesn't use those wages as a viable comparison. Interesting.

 

[NYer]

ame="TRAVIS" post="1115407" timestamp="1410027847"]BINGO!   The IAM AND TWU have FAILED the AMT's.

So you don't want to say how many mechanics are working at FedEx and UPS. That's telling.

Here is another question. Why doesn't the AMFA contracts include fedEx and UPS in their wage adjustment comparisons?

The AMFA supporters always talk about FedEx and UPS, but their chosen replacement for the TWU and IAM doesn't use those wages as a viable comparison. Interesting.[/quote]

 

[dogfishhead]

How will the respected executive boards of each union be voted for with an allliance union? Say the alliance were to get a majority vote? You may have already discussed this but im the FNG looking for info. Hope I dont get my head chewed of for saying that an alliance might be better for negotiating a contract instead of splintered groups? That way the company cant pit union against union? Or is it possible that the TWU takes MX and the IAM Ramp swap a rama to capture good faith? Again just things I need potential clarification on if im off base please explain?