TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[WeAAsles]

After three decades in this game I've learned to prepare myself for what the language is saying, and what its not. How many people said I was nuts when I said don't hold your breath for the matching funds for pre funding, that we needed to remove the words "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process", that was 2012, 63 days from 2015 and still no funds.

Yes and that's why I brought it up in the MIA town hall meeting. When they didn't take it through that court process is when I got nervous but I think the intent of the original agreement will carry forth even if it's through that agreement that we have to grieve and then arbitrate the issue?
 
Does the language say that the intent is to leave our current pension with AA and have us start in the IAM plan at day one? No it does not say that. They did say that they were going to bring back an industry leading contract though, well, where, under these non-section 6 negotiations with contracts in place till 2018, do you think that money is going to come from? Synergies that the company is going to share with us? No Parker already promised that to the shareholders. Then I look at the dollars that are involved and how the penalty under the IAM for early retirement is 4.8% per year prior to 65 vs 3% prior to 60 (IAMNPF is more than triple the AA penalty, and you can't work) and realize that by rolling our pension into the IAMNPF AA gets to do what they couldn't do in BK and eliminate millions of dollars in pension liability. Then I look at how the company also gets a fixed contribution rate of $4160 a year and saves an additional $1200 per mechanic per year by dumping us in the IAMNPF and to date I have not heard one word from the IAM , who is clearly running everything however they choose to, and will do so for the first two critical years to dispel anything I've said, not even from 700.

And again I ask what Presidents and what members are going to ultimately agree to that? You wouldn't, Bob Petersen wouldn't, I wouldn't and I don't know a single President on the Fleet side who would either. Would TUL? Tell me who do you think would agree with this and how it would pass on our side? IAM guys absolutely don't have the numbers in your group to get it passed.
 
If I were AA management I would jump at the opportunity to dump us into the IAMNPF in a heartbeat. There is zero downside. They get to eliminate millions in debt, even if they have to throw in a few million now, they get a fixed cost of $4160 per mechanic, so roughly than 4% of mechanics total compensation will be pension related vs roughly 5.5%  (half the rate Flight Attendants get and less than one third the rate the pilots get) and it creates a captive workforce that they can abuse the shyte out of. Pay them crap, treat them like crap and every year or so raffle off a free Mustang and make videos showing everyone how happy the old workers are to be there, just don't expect them to stand up too quickly and add a walker to their list of tools because with the IAMNPF you ain't going anywhere. .
 
Hey. I'd love to be wrong on this, lets just see a letter that says that our AA pension is not to be put on the table and have the two Presidents sign it.

C'mon do you really think Harry Lombardo would do that? I know that you think Jim Little might have but you have said some good things about Harry on this website. 
 
 
BTW, the negotiators will be even in number, the same from AA and the same from the IAM, even though we have double the amount of people, guess who the tie breaker is then?

Ultimately the members. 
 
Another thing, there are what seven Fleet service Locals right?
Well only three get to go. So maybe your Local will have someone there, maybe they won't, who decides? The International, not you, not even the Presidents council-welcome to the Alliance

Ultimately the members. And if some really bad crap comes our way since AA is going to be rolling in Billions for probably years to come, I'll join you in the fight to vote it down. Basically your Pension doomsday scenario. And I'm sure it won't be very difficult for us both to gain supporters.

 

[Bob Owens]

Now as for the rest I'm not going to speculate what's going to come of this current situation between our two unions or what the decision of the NMB will wind up being? No point in any of us speculating without a crystal ball. But your thought of why shouldn't the IAM continue to accept the mechanics contributions to the fund if there was a representational battle, card drive, whatever is kind of silly. Why would the IAM make their own effort to either gain or keep members even more difficult by agreeing to this idea? 
 

Well at least you admit that the pension is more of a tool to trap members into an organization that brings back inferior contracts.
 
 
Why not?They still get to collect the $4160 for each mechanic that stays and many will die without ever collecting a penny and most will keep working till within a few breaths of their last. Unless of course you feel that the plan is headed for trouble and they don't want the liability? If so its another reason why we want no part of it and another reason to believe the intent is to roll our billions into the IAMNPF. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Another thing, where are you coming up with this one time choice?  Where does it say anything like that?

It doesn't. I said I could support something like that. If young kids want to get into the IAMPF that's up to them? For me it would only give me about $550.00 per month when I retire in 12 years. I don't think it's worth it for me. I'd rather have a higher 401k match and have said that before. My preference. 

Why would AA agree to that? What has this management team agreed to yet that improves anything for us?

Who is this management team to us? They just got in the house. And they came in with money flowing like a river through the front door. 

Its going to be all or nothing, and they are going to use the savings to pay for the improvements elsewhere. If not where do you think they are going to get the money to pay for what they promised?

Passengers, an improving economy and less choices for those flyers to be able to find cheaper seats now.

Remember these are not Section six negotiations, they now have concessionary deals in place for both the IAM and TWU till 2018

I know.

and with the IAM deal we can work their stuff, so they already got half the synergies for free already from the IAM (they offered "job Security" for allowing us to do their work-dumb, really dumb,

Agreed but that's just MY personal opinion. Guys in small stations wouldn't have agreed with us though. But I'm also being a hypocrite some what at the same time because I agree with the fight for BOS to get it's actual numbers to see which union it actually should belong to? 


another mark against the IAM so in other words AA got it for free, workers will die off faster than they become redundant).  What makes you sure they aren't trying to work out a deal to get the same from the TWU through an LOA?

I don't know if they are and for all I know that agreement already exists? Something Laura Glading already alluded to in one of her town halls that someone out there picked up on?

 

[WeAAsles]

Well at least you admit that the pension is more of a tool to trap members into an organization that brings back inferior contracts.

I don't know if I would call it a tool but it does trap you if you have a trade skill and you want to leave to go somewhere else if you cannot collect as long as you're still working. I can understand if you go to a new company that the IAM represents that has the IAMPF if you are going to be reinserted into the plan. Social Security has some of the same caveats for going back to work too though doesn't it?

 
Why not?They still get to collect the $4160 for each mechanic that stays and many will die without ever collecting a penny and most will keep working till within a few breaths of their last. Unless of course you feel that the plan is headed for trouble and they don't want the liability? If so its another reason why we want no part of it and another reason to believe the intent is to roll our billions into the IAMNPF. 

Honestly that Lawyer I spoke to at the PBGC told me that the IAMPF is one of the better funded and managed plans of the Multi-employer plans out there. I had to explain to her why I was asking about the plan if I'm not even in it though.

Bob you should honestly consider writing down some Q and A's and give the PBGC a call. Nothing wrong with verifying information.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
 
And again I ask what Presidents and what members are going to ultimately agree to that? You wouldn't, Bob Petersen wouldn't, I wouldn't and I don't know a single President on the Fleet side who would either. Would TUL? Tell me who do you think would agree with this and how it would pass on our side? IAM guys absolutely don't have the numbers in your group to get it passed.
 
 

 Did we agree to give up profit sharing for six years for a two year 4% advance of the mid term wage adjustment? No but did it happen? Yes. 
 
This isn't section six negotiations, they can put in the changes without a membership vote.  
 
No the IAM doesn't have enough to make it pass, (funny you seem to feel the opposite way when it comes to a representation election) but the prospect of picking up an extra holiday, paid for by our pension, would give them a pretty big YES base to work with. Then factor in the Younger guys at AA with minimal Vacation and minimal sick time who aren't getting much from the AA pension anyway, the TWA guys, guys who are working AA as their second job and would rather have the Holidays and Vacation back and rent relying on the AA pension anyway, all they need now is something to scare enough Title II and Tulsa and they are in.

 

[WeAAsles]

Actually I had it all in a letter to Sweeney 15 years ago. F*&& this Alliance BS, Consolidate, either through mutual agreement or hostile takeover.  The Alliance fractures us, it keeps us structurally divided, its BS and it does nothing for the membership. Show me one clause in the Alliance agreement that is geared towards improving accountability of the organization to the members it serves. That document treats the entire combined membership like cattle.
 
 
Consolidation-into one, not split between two,  makes us stronger. 
 
Alliances for external purposes such as political action etc is fine, but structurally dividing a singular class and craft under one contract at one employer between two Unions is a no-go. 
 
Labor isn't getting weaker because they are losing members, (membership numbers wise has been pretty steady, but as a percentage of the growing workforce it has lagged. Workers don't see a value in it. Unions are getting weaker because they are ineffective at getting better contracts. Look at us, non-union mechanics do better than AA mechanics, we had guys quit and go to Non-union Jet Blue,  thats a disgrace. 

Bob seriously? C'mon. Who winds up being the one on top swallowing up the other? You and I both know about that CWA deal and what was being proposed. When the TWU members there where you live found out about it they went nuts. That IBT thing wasn't the only reason Jim Little was deposed.

If we go by your idea then it's should be the smaller Unions being swallowed into the larger one's. That would mean for us CWA, IBT or IAM? Didn't seem to me like anyone had a taste to do that because they like either what they got already or their own personal comfy leather chairs?

And look at your AMFA people on here that want to bail? What should all the big Unions say hey let's sell ourselves down to AMFA?

No one wants to give up the name on that hat they're wearing.

 

[TRAVIS]

Woo there my be hope for you yet WeAAsles  (I don't know if I would call it a tool but it does trap you if you have a trade skill) trap = keeps PIT and other high time members in the IAM.
It's not a tool ITS A DAM ROPE!
Along with the life time recall that may seem good but only helps keep the IAM in by padding the card count to remove their butt's as most on recall have moved on and will not be coming back.  

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 

Who is this management team to us? They just got in the house. And they came in with money flowing like a river through the front door. 

 

Yep and despite all that extra money they cut the number of buddy passes, eliminated Flex Vacation, cut inspectors off the B-checks, oh yes and how much did medical go up again? Got a call from a retiree who retired after the pre funding cutoff, they wanted him to pay $24000 a year for coverage. Yes thats correct, $2000 a month for him and his wife. $24,000/year !!!!
 
Now where do you think the money is going to come from that will bring mechanic from dead last to industry leading? 

 

[WeAAsles]

 Did we agree to give up profit sharing for six years for a two year 4% advance of the mid term wage adjustment? No but did it happen? Yes. 

You thought we should have said no and others who were in the position to go for it said yes. Who knew at that moment that others in the industry were finally going to start seeing their wages rise? None of us had or have that crystal ball.

There was no time given to vote on it and those in elected positions by their members made the choice as they needed to at that moment.
 
This isn't section six negotiations, they can put in the changes without a membership vote.

No they can't. We all have contracts. And we have to vote to change that. And unless they agree or already have agreed to some type of Arbitration like the APA and APFA have there's nothing the leaders or the company can do to change that.

No the IAM doesn't have enough to make it pass, (funny you seem to feel the opposite way when it comes to a representation election)

I'm just kind of sick of Unions fighting Unions. Seems to me that's all we ever do?

but the prospect of picking up an extra holiday, paid for by our pension, would give them a pretty big YES base to work with. Then factor in the Younger guys at AA with minimal Vacation and minimal sick time who aren't getting much from the AA pension anyway, the TWA guys, guys who are working AA as their second job and would rather have the Holidays and Vacation back and rent relying on the AA pension anyway, all they need now is something to scare enough Title II and Tulsa and they are in.

Maybe? I'd like to think and hope not, but I can't honestly say? Neither can you.

 

[WeAAsles]

Woo there my be hope for you yet WeAAsles  (I don't know if I would call it a tool but it does trap you if you have a trade skill) trap = keeps PIT and other high time members in the IAM.
It's not a tool ITS A DAM ROPE!
Along with the life time recall that may seem good but only helps keep the IAM in by padding the card count to remove their butt's as most on recall have moved on and will not be coming back.  

Travis I have to guess that you haven't seen my conversations on here in the past. Me and 700UW both had a big laugh when you were thinking I was him. We went toe to toe about the IAMPF a few months back.

Look if you're former pension was thrown on the PBGC and you had basically nothing else it's a good thing to have that IAMPF. Not everyone puts into their 401k's so this forces them to have some type of retirement. It's also good for other reasons like say you aren't looking to get a new job when you retire (ME) and plan on sticking with your job till your out. Unfortunately yes I do think some people need to be forced into funding for their future and the IAMPF makes them do that.

For us that have been with AA for awhile and currently have our Pension frozen and are older, no it doesn't really make sense to join in against a 401 match.

Another thing for people is where you live? Bob (LGA) makes squat in pay compared to that guy in TUL. It's much harder for him and his members to put away money for the future. If a Mechanic in TUL is not putting away a ton of cash to his 401 then I don't really have a lot of sympathy for him to be honest. Why do you think I support COLA or GEO pay.

 

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob seriously? C'mon. Who winds up being the one on top swallowing up the other? You and I both know about that CWA deal and what was being proposed. When the TWU members there where you live found out about it they went nuts. That IBT thing wasn't the only reason Jim Little was deposed.

If we go by your idea then it's should be the smaller Unions being swallowed into the larger one's. That would mean for us CWA, IBT or IAM? Didn't seem to me like anyone had a taste to do that because they like either what they got already or their own personal comfy leather chairs?

And look at your AMFA people on here that want to bail? What should all the big Unions say hey let's sell ourselves down to AMFA?

No one wants to give up the name on that hat they're wearing.

You asked, you don't like my answer.
 
There is a way to do things and a way not to. One is bring the idea to the membership, get buy in, then go forward. It doesn't all have to happen at once. I was in favor of consolidating maintenance locals, just not the way it was done. I enjoyed being President a lot more than I do being Treasurer but from the perspective of resources and benefit to the membership we have more as one Local than we ever did compared to five smaller ones. So while consolidation cost me a position I enjoyed , as well as other union reps at the five smaller locals, I think that the membership ends up with more this way than broken into five smaller pieces. The combined assets of the five Locals after 14 years of existence was $900k, after one year that doubled under 591 to $2million. Our consolidation is still far from being complete, Title II being split all over the place is still a major hurdle that despite petitions from the Title II guys wishing to join us still has not happened, so we still have a very defective structure. (Under TWU negotiating rules, we could have more Fleet service Clerks sitting in M&R negotiations than Aircraft Mechanics). Not sure if it will ever get fixed, but we will still keep trying. Maybe the next step should be for all maintenance to be in one Local, like the SWA model. I believe that Title III needs to consolidate as well. Just do it over time with overlap, getting 591 running after dissolving all the old locals on the same day 591 was formed has been a horror, still is.  

 

[WeAAsles]

Yep and despite all that extra money they cut the number of buddy passes

And we fly for FREE anywhere in the world now. I really dig that.

eliminated Flex Vacation,

We pay for that anyway. Save up the money and CS off a week. It's actually more flexible to do that. Only time I ever bought one of that crap weeks I got stuck with February.

cut inspectors off the B-checks, oh yes and how much did medical go up again? Got a call from a retiree who retired after the pre funding cutoff, they wanted him to pay $24000 a year for coverage. Yes thats correct, $2000 a month for him and his wife. $24,000/year !!!!

Bankruptcy concessions. You and I don't need to go into our back and forth again on this one. And AA's retirement medical full pay is a joke. Hope that guy looked at the ACA and he lives in a city not a rural area. For me I'll see you in Belize.
 
Now where do you think the money is going to come from that will bring mechanic from dead last to industry leading? 

You look at industry leading as base wages not jobs. You can keep trying to sell it but to get those SWA wages would mean less jobs. Fight for that COLA or GEO pay in the next negotiations. You supposedly have the numbers now.

 

[WeAAsles]

You asked, you don't like my answer.

No I actually LOVE your answer. Good luck trying to get everyone to give up all those leather chairs out there though. Are you willing to throw your chair on the bonfire for the cause?
 
 
There is a way to do things and a way not to. One is bring the idea to the membership, get buy in, then go forward. It doesn't all have to happen at once. I was in favor of consolidating maintenance locals, just not the way it was done. I enjoyed being President a lot more than I do being Treasurer

You see you like your chair bro.

but from the perspective of resources and benefit to the membership we have more as one Local than we ever did compared to five smaller ones. So while consolidation cost me a position I enjoyed , as well as other union reps at the five smaller locals, I think that the membership ends up with more this way than broken into five smaller pieces. The combined assets of the five Locals after 14 years of existence was $900k, after one year that doubled under 591 to $2million. Our consolidation is still far from being complete, Title II being split all over the place is still a major hurdle that despite petitions from the Title II guys wishing to join us still has not happened, so we still have a very defective structure. (Under TWU negotiating rules, we could have more Fleet service Clerks sitting in M&R negotiations than Aircraft Mechanics). Not sure if it will ever get fixed, but we will still keep trying. Maybe the next step should be for all maintenance to be in one Local, like the SWA model. I believe that Title III needs to consolidate as well. Just do it over time with overlap, getting 591 running after dissolving all the old locals on the same day 591 was formed has been a horror, still is.

So what if that one Local you're talking about has it's home base in TUL or DFW. You cool with that? Actually that one Local should be in DFW since that's where HQ is. Much easier for those leaders to have a one on one with the company if they don't have to fly in. Also would save the members some money. 

You cool with this?

 

[MetalMover]

 Got a call from a retiree who retired after the pre funding cutoff, they wanted him to pay $24000 a year for coverage. Yes thats correct, $2000 a month for him and his wife. $24,000/year !!!!
 
 

Is that under Obamacare?

 

[MetalMover]

 (Under TWU negotiating rules, we could have more Fleet service Clerks sitting in M&R negotiations than Aircraft Mechanics). 

Like the Good Ol Days!
Maybe they'll negotiate a cut in license pay for us!