TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[737823]

Why don't YOU show us where they are considered skilled labor by the DOL.

Company boy you claimed they are unskilled now you show us a link. And if AMTs are unskilled stock clerks are even more unskilled.

Josh

 

[MetalMover]

Why don't YOU show us where they are considered skilled labor by the DOL.

I would like to see where either the IAM or the TWU ever lobbied to get the mechanics classified as skilled.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Why don't YOU show us where they are considered skilled labor by the DOL.

 
I didn't make a statement to back up - I'm merely pointing out the statement you made is a lie.
 
You stated the DOL still classifies Aircraft Mechanics as unskilled, I'm calling that a lie and you a liar.

 

[700UW]

I would like to see where either the IAM or the TWU ever lobbied to get the mechanics classified as skilled.

The IAM did when the unions pushed for FAR 145.

 

[737823]

The IAM did when the unions pushed for FAR 145.

Robert Roach is still unskilled as a former ramp serviceman with a phony degree. Sito is at least skilled and has his A&P.

Josh

 

[blue collar]

Why don't YOU show us where they are considered skilled labor by the DOL.

What's wrong? Can't find the proof to back your claim?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I didn't make a statement to back up - I'm merely pointing out the statement you made is a lie.
 
You stated the DOL still classifies Aircraft Mechanics as unskilled, I'm calling that a lie and you a liar.

Stop waiting on that link and the letter from O.V. Delle Femine to NWA asking them to take more money from the IAM and give it to the AMFA.

 

[TRAVIS]

PULLED FROM DOL WEB  http://data.bls.gov/search/query/results?q=SKILLED%20AIRCRAFT


Showing results for SKILLED AIRCRAFT



















 
Welders, Cutters, Solderers, and Brazers : Occupational Outlook ...
 
... the average for all occupations. Despite slower-than-average employment growth,skilled welders with up-to-date training should have good job opportunities.

www.bls.gov/ooh/.../welders-cutters-solderers-and-brazers.htm

 





 
Assemblers and Fabricators : Occupational Outlook Handbook ...
 
They use tools, machines, and their hands to make engines, computers, aircraft, ships, boats, toys, electronic devices, control panels, and more.

www.bls.gov/ooh/production/assemblers-and-fabricators.htm

 




 
Aircraft and Avionics Equipment Mechanics and Technicians ...
 
... repair and perform scheduled maintenance on aircraft. They also may perform aircraftinspections as required by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

www.bls.gov/.../aircraft-and-avionics-equipment-mechanics-and-technicians. htm

 




 
Aircraft Mechanics and Service Technicians
 
Diagnose, adjust, repair, or overhaul aircraft engines and assemblies, such as hydraulic and pneumatic ... Includes helicopter and aircraft engine specialists.

www.bls.gov/OES/current/oes493011.htm

 




Productivity in aircraft manufacturing
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
 
some companies are leaving the aircraft business ... shop, which depends on the skill and experience .... The reliance on a highly skilled work force is re-.

www.bls.gov/mlr/1993/06/art3full.pdf

 

[TRAVIS]

TSH I think the change was made in late 2011 not quite sure. I have a e-mail in to the DOL and hope to get a answer.
 
700 would never admit to being wrong you were just beating a dead horse (TROLL) LOL 

 

[swamt]

SWAMT
 
You have been a supporter of the fight to bring AMFA here to AA, I have a question for you why?
***Because I want to see change at AA.  The representation at AA has been pathetic for the past several decades...
 
Were you at one time an AA employee?
***Never been an AA employee...
 
Your can better help our cause if you can get your AMFA Brothers to get involved as well Not just WNMECH but all at your station, Getting the regional Directors involved, the NEC.
***I have tried, but we too have lazy and, afraid of, the final results mechanics at SWA IF the AA'ers were to come into AMFA.  All the leaders currently in National positions are not willing to help you guys get in, they (AMFA National leaders are afraid of losing their positions if you guys do come in, hence, the resistance. The previous leaders at AMFA National were fully OK with working with you guys to come in. They were voted out (and has nothing to do with them supporting you guys) but now, the current leaders are not that concerned with applying the help needed, and I am sorry for this.
 
This fight will show the industry that AMFA's Leadership wants to truly lead the industry in representation of the mechanics class and craft
***I know this. And I am still trying to let others understand this... 
 
This all needs to happen before the NMB comes back with its ruling, one way or the other.
***Why must it happen prior to the NMB's ruling?  If you cannot explain here, PM me. As you know I do not respond to PM's but I will read them...
 
You have talked in great support now its time for you as a AMFA member to put your best effort in getting the support we Need from the AMFA Leaders to have this drive succeed.
***I am in great support of you AA'ers as well as US'ers coming on board once you guys are a single group.  It would greatly benefit the entire membership "ONCE" they have experienced AMFA in work.  It will blow their minds how involved and how they will have to vote on everything in order to get something to move within the union.  Pretty sure you know how all that works.  I know the numbers you guys have, keep doing what you guys are doing, your doing GREAT, trust me.  The longer the NMB takes, the better off you guys will be on the card collection side of things.  Also, pls, pls keep any and all cards that fall off the date cycle re-signed and updated, when they expire, fallow up and get them re-signed ASAP.  I also know how extremely accurate precise the cards are being kept with the list of members and dates.  Again you guys are doing a great job.  When the final decision comes from the NMB be ready for more members wanting to sign a card for AMFA, it will increase.
 
I will do my best to draw up any support what-so-ever that I can.  I really do speak every day at work about how we (SWA) should be full blown supporting the AA/US guys and gals to come into AMFA, as it would benefit all of us in the long run.  Good luck to and all, it's a very tough battle with the size of your airline and now US is involved as far as the number of members are concerned.  Stay strong  and hopefully your time will come on the up coming ballot...

 

[swamt]

Guess it depends on how you define "industry" For many years it included all the larger carriers, then when that became inconvenient the company changed the definition to only other large carriers that went through bankruptcy and our International unquestioningly adopted this new definition, even though Fed Ex, SWa and UPS still use the more accurate one. 
 
 
We are, or should be used to "industry leading" which really isn't and I'm sure that the IAM has it all planned out. With the TWU we had what was referred to as an industry Leading pension back when I hired on, more specifically an industry leading multiplier. The Union put out all sorts of graphs showing how a member with 30 years in the plan at AA earning the same as his counterpart at UAL would get hundreds of dollars more. What they left out is that in order for the AA guy to have 30 years in the plan he had to have 31 years with the company but at UAL he had to have just 30. So the truth was that if two workers started the same day, one at UAL and one at AA and they earned the same amount (we usually lagged UAL) and they both retired the same day 30 years later the UAL guy would get more than the AA guy because the AA guy would only have 29 years in the plan. That didn't stop the union from selling it as industry leading, and using that industry leading pension as an excuse for ten sick days instead of 12 and six weeks max vacation instead of seven , and straight time pay for training etc etc etc. 
 
We saw "industry leading" again from Overspeed, when the company increased the MRT, but then changed the language so that they could have 24-7 coverage without paying anyone the new higher MRT-but on paper they would still claim "industry Leading" even if fewer people saw that than the cola that Hawaii mechanics at UAL got-which of course was not counted by Overspeed.
 
Call me cynical but I have no doubt that the IAM plans to have a deal that they will try and sell as "industry leading". At the same time it will be zero cost for the company, no its operating budget will reflect a cost but bottom line (after the debt owed to the pension is written off) it will be ZERO cost. How will they do this? By throwing us all in the IAMNPF. The hundreds of millions saved by eliminating the 60 without penalty rule will provide more than enough to pay for an industry leading contract. Our loss will be the PMUS mechanics gain. In addition to the savings by dumping our pensions into the IAMNPF the company would save roughly $1200 per mechanic per year by just giving the IAMNPF the fixed amount of $4160 per year vs around a $5400/year match (with 12%OT factored in). Thats over $15 million a year right there.  Enough to get us the same vacation, Holiday and sick time as PMUS. So we lose five more years of our lives and can't work as a mechanic if we leave AA and our pension is at risk and can be cut even after we retire.
 
They never said it was the best pension available, they said it was the most secure, but even thats a lie, how secure can it be if they can cut it? I want my AA pension to stay exactly where it is. 

Then someone (maybe you Bob) should get a better definition from the "alliance" what they mean by "industry leading contract" and who exactly they will be comparing to.  When someone says industry, it includes every and all within the industry, NOT just individual airlines that the company wants to include.  SWA has done this for years with the cargo companies, and as of recent, a mediator has ruled that SWA will indeed include the cargo liners (UPS and FedEx) as the jobs performed are the same. Only difference now are that we are responsible for human lives, NOT just packages---period...

 

[swamt]

-

I would like to see where either the IAM or the TWU ever lobbied to get the mechanics classified as skilled.

AMFA did, where was all the other unions???

 

[TWU informer]

Then someone (maybe you Bob) should get a better definition from the "alliance" what they mean by "industry leading contract" and who exactly they will be comparing to.  When someone says industry, it includes every and all within the industry, NOT just individual airlines that the company wants to include.  SWA has done this for years with the cargo companies, and as of recent, a mediator has ruled that SWA will indeed include the cargo liners (UPS and FedEx) as the jobs performed are the same. Only difference now are that we are responsible for human lives, NOT just packages---period...

Exactly!
 
The only alliance that needs to happen is ALL AMT's getting into one UNION that only represents the craft or class as defined by the NMB, instead of being divided and used against each other.

 

[MetalMover]

Guess it depends on how you define "industry" For many years it included all the larger carriers, then when that became inconvenient the company changed the definition to only other large carriers that went through bankruptcy and our International unquestioningly adopted this new definition, even though Fed Ex, SWa and UPS still use the more accurate one. 
 
 
We are, or should be used to "industry leading" which really isn't and I'm sure that the IAM has it all planned out. With the TWU we had what was referred to as an industry Leading pension back when I hired on, more specifically an industry leading multiplier. The Union put out all sorts of graphs showing how a member with 30 years in the plan at AA earning the same as his counterpart at UAL would get hundreds of dollars more. What they left out is that in order for the AA guy to have 30 years in the plan he had to have 31 years with the company but at UAL he had to have just 30. So the truth was that if two workers started the same day, one at UAL and one at AA and they earned the same amount (we usually lagged UAL) and they both retired the same day 30 years later the UAL guy would get more than the AA guy because the AA guy would only have 29 years in the plan. That didn't stop the union from selling it as industry leading, and using that industry leading pension as an excuse for ten sick days instead of 12 and six weeks max vacation instead of seven , and straight time pay for training etc etc etc. 
 
We saw "industry leading" again from Overspeed, when the company increased the MRT, but then changed the language so that they could have 24-7 coverage without paying anyone the new higher MRT-but on paper they would still claim "industry Leading" even if fewer people saw that than the cola that Hawaii mechanics at UAL got-which of course was not counted by Overspeed.
 
Call me cynical but I have no doubt that the IAM plans to have a deal that they will try and sell as "industry leading". At the same time it will be zero cost for the company, no its operating budget will reflect a cost but bottom line (after the debt owed to the pension is written off) it will be ZERO cost. How will they do this? By throwing us all in the IAMNPF. The hundreds of millions saved by eliminating the 60 without penalty rule will provide more than enough to pay for an industry leading contract. Our loss will be the PMUS mechanics gain. In addition to the savings by dumping our pensions into the IAMNPF the company would save roughly $1200 per mechanic per year by just giving the IAMNPF the fixed amount of $4160 per year vs around a $5400/year match (with 12%OT factored in). Thats over $15 million a year right there.  Enough to get us the same vacation, Holiday and sick time as PMUS. So we lose five more years of our lives and can't work as a mechanic if we leave AA and our pension is at risk and can be cut even after we retire.
 
They never said it was the best pension available, they said it was the most secure, but even thats a lie, how secure can it be if they can cut it? I want my AA pension to stay exactly where it is. 

Here's a link to the IAMPNF. Time to start reading and learning.
 
http://mypension.iamnpf.org/national-pension-plan.aspx
 
http://mypension.iamnpf.org/media/13829/IAM_SPD_11.pdf

 

[MetalMover]

The IAM did when the unions pushed for FAR 145.

Is there a link or anything to back this up?