TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
All the seniority dates from the Kasher Decision stays the same.
 
DOH = Date of Hire

 
 
DOH is Date of hire into your current occupation not company.
 
So here at AA its occupational and at USAir its called classification still the same so we all understand and are on the SAME page.
 
example if a ramp guy hires into AA in 2000 then upgrades to AMT in 2010 he has 2010 occupational time. that is where he will be slotted with 2010 NOT 2000.

 

[Vortilon]

 

 
 
2012???  "Wage Adjuster"? --That should be 2015, not 2012
 
Is that supposed to cover all the other losses as well?  Look what we have to look forward to guys - a wage adjuster that puts our base pay in the middle of the pack again - probably 3 years before that would take effect. --You keep complaining about being last, now before any more negotiations you'll automatically be at the "middle of the pack." With further JCBA negotiations, that "middle of the pack" standing is the take off point. (not being last)
 
  Sorry about your 2 weeks of vacation you lost.  Sorry about your loss of 5 holidays, and loss of holiday pay at 2.5X.  Sorry about your Sick Pay, and sorry about sick time acrual rate cut by more than half.  Sorry about loss of shift differential pay.  Sorry about loss of longevity pay.  The list goes on and on - of TWU negotiated losses for AA AMTs.  Yet here you are trying to pump sunshine up the AMT's a$$es. --No sunshine here. There needs to be some negotiations going forward. The quicker we get to the table the quicker we can trying to regain some of those losses and keep jobs.
 
Look, nobody that has looked at this JCBA deal with any objectivity, has any confidence in it - working to benefit the AA AMTs at all.. --Being negative at all times is the last place you'll be able to make any gains. It seems there are many that will make anything and everything that happens a negative. Can't help those that want to create the very negativity they want to escape from.
 
AMFA is the only logical choice. Then get to work and get those cards signed. The window of opportunity is quickly fading away. The Association Single Carrier Status application has been delayed by the NMB looking for more information. That is absolutely the best news that can be gathered by the pro-AMFA guys, that gives them even more time to get those cards done.....Go for it. If the majority wants it, it will happen.

 

 
 
Being negative?  You're funny!  If it isn't bad enough we have the company screwing us, the very people that should be representing us are not to be trusted either.  The only thing that I am positive about is that the TWU has screwed the AMTs at AA way too long.  Course you being a nosey baggage handler and all - just don't get it.  You know, being a top 3 in pay and benefits in the industry and all. 
Hey guys, the baggage handler thinks we're just being negative, and we should just go ahead and trust the likes of him to get back, all he and his ATD buddies helped us give up. 

 

[Vortilon]

 
Line Presidents that have Members from the Title groups affected by the Tentative Agreement and they have the right to represent their membership as do all the Presidents. The call is to have votes, in this case a local that has many Members used a roll call to represent those Members. AT THE SAME TIME, you're going to argue against smaller locals being able to vote also. It seems that's a perfect excuse to not get what you want...blame others, everyone else is at fault. The International, the ATD, the 514 representatives, the Presidents from smaller local representing several title groups....The longer you guys used the arguments the more exposed are the conspiracy theories being thrown about.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the president of the five one four a baggage handler?  Isn't it true, than none of the five one four reps has an A&P?  Not an ideal lineup for representing AMTs!
 
Yeah, I know they voted him in. Remind me, how many votes did he get total - something like 5 or 6 hundred.  That, out of a possible 5 or 6 thousand - at the time.  It's called apathy - not exactly a resounding endorsement!
 
Remind me, who paid to fly in those small station presidents? 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Typical tactic from those that cannot refute the shared information. Let's personally attack the messenger.
 
The reality remains that Local Presidents negotiate the contracts at every title group, but the same Presidents that don't deliver the promised goods also blame the International, the other title groups and the Company.
 
The answer must be AMFA...The union that was started by AA TWU mechanics in 1961 and has represented many of the airlines within the industry, except AA and that have been voted out by others or have just lost their Members to failed strategies like in Northwest.
 
You can try to kill the messenger, but it seems the message still gets through.

Nice how you avoid the fact that you have no problem with the discrimination of AMTs.  I would like to say that as long as there are FSC like AANOTOK I will have their backs and would not be silent if the TWU tried to do to FSC what they did to AMTs.   You get what you give, so  maybe someday AA realizes they can outsource baggage and then we'll see how much you are willing to pay to keep your job.  AMTs are not represented in the TWU and that is the problem, but the beauty of it is that you have NO VOTE as to what AMTs decide to do.  If it doesn't happen so be it, but you won't even get a ballot.  The messenger in your case is a hypocrite who loves to point the fickled finger of blame everywhere else but to himself.  The fact is your silence speaks volumes on the discrimination.  The TWU told AMTs they had to buy back benefits that FS and Stores never lost.  This in itself is discrimination, but you couldn't care less.  I smile when I realize that you will never have the opportunity to vote either way for AMFA.  As far as you are concerned, I have learned in my life that what goes around, comes around.  You'll be sitting on the other side of the fence some day and I hope I'm here to see it.  You should do everyone a favor and turn in your union card, but your're a FSC, you hate AMTs and you are one way so you probably can get an international job.  You'd fit in very well with Sean Doyle.  He thinks just like you do.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 

If you guys want AMFA, then you need to tell everyone how they will make things better for everyone else. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem there is too much positives to advertise about...except they can vote for absolutely everything. If that's what the Members want and they ignore the other stuff, then get those cards signed. Good luck with that.

One huge positive is we won't have people like you and Sean Doyle (not) representing us. As a matter of fact there will be no Fleet Service Clerks involved in AMT negotiations.  Another is that Jim Little and Harry Lombardo can't decide to take equity from us or make deals with other "Unions" to for alliances without our vote.   Also nobody will be pushing for inferior benefits for the AMTs.  Also when we demand these benefits that you enjoy today, we won't have to hear about the TWU getting FS and Stores equal value. Just the thought of going into negotiations without having people like you involved in them is more enough for me to sign a card.  Pretty good stuff and I would think it would be more than enough to get enough cards signed.  But you gotta hand it to the TWU.  They have convinced enough AMTs that they don't deserve any representation.  As for those AMTs who believe that?  You can't fix stupid.  But I will tell you that from now on I am going to try to get more AMTs to read your posts and that should convince them to sign a card.  The more crap you spew the better for us. 

 

[chellow]

So post merger what will my seniority be 4-10-2001 at some stations 25% at others and 100% in St. Louis ? What is DOH into the craft and class mean? Is it just for the original AA mechanics / parts washers ect . Are they even meeting to discuss these issues?

One thing no one is looking at is the seniority of Auto and Facility maintenance at US Air, will they maintain the same seniority as AMT’s as it is today, and will all the Auto and Facility mechanics at AA get AMT seniority like at US Air. If that’s the case all the junior AMT’s at AA will be pushed back in seniority. Get ready TUL for the Association.

 

[NYer]

 

 


 
 
NYer
 
The Local Prez don't at any time sit with the company. They are Not going to have ramp/stores mechanics getting alll hot under the collar with the HR and Legal teams of the AA team. --Isn't it the job of the elected Local Presidents to sit with the Company...how can you argue they don't have time. That's ridiculous. No the ATD does that the pres. or local rep sent sit on a side bar room and the ATD brings what was discussed tot them and then these committees hash out articles submit what they think back to ATD reps. --Negative, there may be conversation by the ATD and Company but there are also face to face talks between the Presidents and the company reps. It isn't a tag team match...
 
 
The ATD can as well just sign off on it they DON"T even have to let us vote, they do have the power to do that. They don't but they can.  Just like this Association they are speaking for us J. Little and T. Buffenburger signed this agreement without our say not didn't they? --The can, but they didn't. The Presidents brought back the Tentative Agreement, they argued their points, and shared their views with their Memberships. The AMT pres are out numbered by the rest so that is why our Local pres wanted a NO VOTE. Even put out a video. it only passed by 48 votes since many didn't take the time to vote. How SAD --The AMT Presidents voted for the AMT's, so how are they outnumbered. If there were Fleet Presidents involved then that is because they have title groups represented in those votes and have the right to represent their Members. Or don't they?
 
 
They signed away our profit sharing as well or did you forget. Pres. didn't vote on that.
Bobby Gless just gave it away and said its better to get money now we did not have a say. --The Profit Sharing was an MOU with a company we didn't work for. The AMT's received an annual $2,500 raise that they can add to with OT and 401K matching funds. In the beginning of the decade the Profit Sharing was seen as an albatross and now we received pay raises and that's wrong too. Bobby Gless who was part of the ATD felt it was better so he bargained it away, my point was that we did not have a say now did we? --It was a negotiation with a company that we do not work for and has made it clear, then and now, that they're against profit sharing. That was monetized with a 4.3% raise and only on these pages is a raise a negative...Even to those who complain we don't get paid enough. Go figure.
 
 
They kept our stock to pay the legal fees we again had NO SAY --The holding of the stock was a Court mandated issue. It was a court order that established the 14% holding from a lawsuit raised by Early Out recipients based on a decision made by the Equity Committee, which were all Local Presidents. For the TWU to use MY stock and yours to pay their legal fees and then when alll said and done give me what's left is BS. Did you authorize that I surely didn't? --The United Stated legal system authorized that since the 14% was a court order that came from the Early Out lawsuits.
 
 
They did not put a snap back clause in our 2003 contract, and in fact Don Vedeitich made this statement we didn't feel it was in the best interest of the company at this time to put a snap back in on our contract. --Bad call, if it was even possible to get under the circumstances. Pilots got all of their concessions back, so it must of been available if the union was willing to fight for it. Oh thats right the TWU just rolls over --Pilots gave up 17% just like everyone else, and the Creditors who also took losses made sure everyone contributed their share.
 
 
What ever is going to keep the dues flowing is what the TWU is going to do, and you better come to realise that. Its a business for the TWU and the crooks that run it. --So there are not dues at other unions or with AMFA. The TWU is only union that collect dues? Is that really an argument. With AMFA the members get to vote on whats going to be done the TWU and the rest just doit was my point. --OK, point made. You get to vote..at least the one's that remain.
 
 
If you guys want AMFA, then you need to tell everyone how they will make things better for everyone else. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem there is too much positives to advertise about...except they can vote for absolutely everything. If that's what the Members want and they ignore the other stuff, then get those cards signed. Good luck with that. AMFA is NOT for everyone else its for the mechanics and related those designated by the NMB to be in our class and craft and that does not include Fleet/stores
We are working on those cards. But why do you even care its Not about any change for you now is it? So why bad mouth a union you won't be affiliated with or represented by. --Bad mouth? Just stating the facts. Can you refute them?

 

 

 

[NYer]

 
 
Being negative?  You're funny!  If it isn't bad enough we have the company screwing us, the very people that should be representing us are not to be trusted either.  The only thing that I am positive about is that the TWU has screwed the AMTs at AA way too long.  Course you being a nosey baggage handler and all - just don't get it.  You know, being a top 3 in pay and benefits in the industry and all. 
Hey guys, the baggage handler thinks we're just being negative, and we should just go ahead and trust the likes of him to get back, all he and his ATD buddies helped us give up. 

 
So we're being screwed even though we vote for our Presidents and other representatives...which is the main, maybe only, selling point for AMFA.

 

[NYer]

One huge positive is we won't have people like you and Sean Doyle (not) representing us. As a matter of fact there will be no Fleet Service Clerks involved in AMT negotiations.  Another is that Jim Little and Harry Lombardo can't decide to take equity from us or make deals with other "Unions" to for alliances without our vote.   Also nobody will be pushing for inferior benefits for the AMTs.  Also when we demand these benefits that you enjoy today, we won't have to hear about the TWU getting FS and Stores equal value. Just the thought of going into negotiations without having people like you involved in them is more enough for me to sign a card.  Pretty good stuff and I would think it would be more than enough to get enough cards signed.  But you gotta hand it to the TWU.  They have convinced enough AMTs that they don't deserve any representation.  As for those AMTs who believe that?  You can't fix stupid.  But I will tell you that from now on I am going to try to get more AMTs to read your posts and that should convince them to sign a card.  The more crap you spew the better for us. 

 
I agree, there should be a maintenance guy representing the maintenance guys.
 
The 14% Equity was slated to be set aside by the Judge overseeing the lawsuits (filed by other maintenance guys), not the TWU.
 
So it should be easy to get cards signed if everyone, or enough, agree with you. On the other hand, it probably doesn't help is call those that don't agree "stupid."
 
I hope more people read these posts...and let me help you.
 
To those interested in signing cards for AMFA: If you believe that AMFA is a better alternative than the TWU, by all means sign a card in order to get an election. But you also need to understand that time is short, so don't procrastinate...sign that card today.
 
Hope that helps OldGuy...

 

[NYer]

Nice how you avoid the fact that you have no problem with the discrimination of AMTs.  I would like to say that as long as there are FSC like AANOTOK I will have their backs and would not be silent if the TWU tried to do to FSC what they did to AMTs.   You get what you give, so  maybe someday AA realizes they can outsource baggage and then we'll see how much you are willing to pay to keep your job.  AMTs are not represented in the TWU and that is the problem, but the beauty of it is that you have NO VOTE as to what AMTs decide to do.  If it doesn't happen so be it, but you won't even get a ballot.  The messenger in your case is a hypocrite who loves to point the fickled finger of blame everywhere else but to himself.  The fact is your silence speaks volumes on the discrimination.  The TWU told AMTs they had to buy back benefits that FS and Stores never lost.  This in itself is discrimination, but you couldn't care less.  I smile when I realize that you will never have the opportunity to vote either way for AMFA.  As far as you are concerned, I have learned in my life that what goes around, comes around.  You'll be sitting on the other side of the fence some day and I hope I'm here to see it.  You should do everyone a favor and turn in your union card, but your're a FSC, you hate AMTs and you are one way so you probably can get an international job.  You'd fit in very well with Sean Doyle.  He thinks just like you do.

 
Don't want an International job....yuck.
 
So the fact that maintenance presidents brought back a TA that included 50% sick pay, is the fault of the other title groups, the ATD, the International and the Company....And that is told to you by the same presidents that voted for that item....Oh no, I forgot. It was the fault of the large Local because they roll called AND the fault of the small Local even though their roll call numbers are minimal. Copy.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

One thing no one is looking at is the seniority of Auto and Facility maintenance at US Air, will they maintain the same seniority as AMT’s as it is today, and will all the Auto and Facility mechanics at AA get AMT seniority like at US Air. If that’s the case all the junior AMT’s at AA will be pushed back in seniority. Get ready TUL for the Association.

 
Chellow
 
The TWU contract has two different title groups one for AMT and the other for Facilities/automotive. We are the larger group so when the integration is done with the McKaskill Bond each title group will stay where it is. That means it will not effect any AMT.  The title 2 guys will get merged with the occupational seniority they have in that work group. USAir has one seniority list we have two. Our contract effects more so it will be done the AA way. I can't say this is a Fact but why would AA let the smaller USAir IAM represented employees run the show. If AMFA came in as our new union we would keep the TWO title groups as well.
 
McKaskill is the merger by occupational seniority in your current JOB. This along with the TWA Kasher ruling has been thought of. NO one knows how that is going to pan out. It is all speculation if anyone says different.
 
This will all get worked out as the merger takes Place. It will either get done by the Assoc. or the TWU but since the IAM is much smaller group as it was with TWA I can only assume the same will happen AA and the TWU will be the ruling union.
 
If it was up to me which it isn't I would do it completely by occupational straight across the board. 
 
Also the TWA guys are NOT going to get their seniority back either, No matter what the IAM says. Within maintenance there is a 9000 to 4500 ratio. so why would AA mechanics let that happen? Not sure what the ratio is in Fleet and stores but I doubt they would let it be done that way either.
 
Just another reason for mechanics both uS and AA to shed the TWU/IAM and sign cards to not have to worry about that scenario.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
Don't want an International job....yuck.
 
So the fact that maintenance presidents brought back a TA that included 50% sick pay, is the fault of the other title groups, the ATD, the International and the Company....And that is told to you by the same presidents that voted for that item....Oh no, I forgot. It was the fault of the large Local because they roll called AND the fault of the small Local even though their roll call numbers are minimal. Copy.

NYer
 
During the 2003 negotiations M&R was required to give up so much so it was that issue that a member of LAX Local who was sent other than the Local Pres. who  brought up for MTC to give up that 50% sick pay so less would be cut in other places.
 
As far as the roll call when the TWU Local in Tulsa is promised something by the ATD to protect the numbers there they call the roll and force the T/A back on the rest of us.
 
The TWU also gave up the Baker Letter for the MTC Locals closing the small locals taking all the money and putting in one place just in case they need to do a Money grab, to get this ONE Line Local 591 and then they somehow scammed that back in as well since we Now have more union guys off the floor than we did when we had our own Local.
 
Little is Gone and so is Bobby Gless and Don Vedeitich, from the ATD but we still have other scammers and the new head of the TWU was Littles VP. so what does that say.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Don't want an International job....yuck.
 
So the fact that maintenance presidents brought back a TA that included 50% sick pay, is the fault of the other title groups, the ATD, the International and the Company....And that is told to you by the same presidents that voted for that item....Oh no, I forgot. It was the fault of the large Local because they roll called AND the fault of the small Local even though their roll call numbers are minimal. Copy.

I believe what Bob Owens told us.  He was there and he has never lied to us.  The international does not like Bob because he informs the members of the goings on.  The international, who has lied many times to us, claims it was the local presidents who did it.  Bob claims otherwise.  Like I said, I believe Bob.  According to Bob (and the federal judge who ruled in favor of Jim Little imposing a contract on us) that the local officials are only witnesses and the international owns the contract.  I guess you figure we all have a short memory.  And yes I do honestly believe that any AMT who would rather continue to allow a union run by other work groups continue to screw them has got to be stupid.  Lowest pay in the industry and lowest benefits in the union.  If FS was historically paid lower at AA than United, Delta and Southwest with the AMTs at AA historically being paid above standard, would you want to continue that trend?  Of course not.  You are happy with the TWU and that is up to you.  I would hope the other groups would be vocal to the international about the mistreatment of the AMTs but that is not going to happen obviously.  Now I have wasted enough cyber space on this and I'm not going to keep posting the same stuff time and time again.  You have a completely different view of the events and also don't want to admit that it is not unionism if one group is singled out for more pay and benefit cuts than others in the same union.  Conversely, it is not right for the same union to mandate equal improvements for all groups while not restoring the benefits of the discriminated group.  Regardless of how you try to spin that, the international did not allow a TA for me to vote on that had the same benefits as you.  Bob said that Gless and Videtich were responsible for this.  You are neither an AMT nor are you in the international (so you say) so you were not there.  You are merely repeating the story given by the international.  Bob was there.  I trust Bob Owens so I believe him.  That's about as simple as I can put it.  As Forest Gump would say "That's all I got to say about that."

 

[chellow]

One thing no one is looking at is the seniority of Auto and Facility maintenance at US Air, will they maintain the same seniority as AMT’s as it is today, and will all the Auto and Facility mechanics at AA get AMT seniority like at US Air. If that’s the case all the junior AMT’s at AA will be pushed back in seniority. Get ready TUL for the Association.
 
 
Chellow
 
The TWU contract has two different title groups one for AMT and the other for Facilities/automotive. We are the larger group so when the integration is done with the McKaskill Bond each title group will stay where it is. That means it will not effect any AMT.  The title 2 guys will get merged with the occupational seniority they have in that work group. USAir has one seniority list we have two. Our contract effects more so it will be done the AA way. I can't say this is a Fact but why would AA let the smaller USAir IAM represented employees run the show. If AMFA came in as our new union we would keep the TWO title groups as well.
 
McKaskill is the merger by occupational seniority in your current JOB. This along with the TWA Kasher ruling has been thought of. NO one knows how that is going to pan out. It is all speculation if anyone says different.
 
This will all get worked out as the merger takes Place. It will either get done by the Assoc. or the TWU but since the IAM is much smaller group as it was with TWA I can only assume the same will happen AA and the TWU will be the ruling union.
 
If it was up to me which it isn't I would do it completely by occupational straight across the board. 
 
Also the TWA guys are NOT going to get their seniority back either, No matter what the IAM says. Within maintenance there is a 9000 to 4500 ratio. so why would AA mechanics let that happen? Not sure what the ratio is in Fleet and stores but I doubt they would let it be done that way either.
 
Just another reason for mechanics both uS and AA to shed the TWU/IAM and sign cards to not have to worry about that scenario.

 
You are speculating, you don't know that. And remember the IAM for some strange reason is running the show during joint negotiation if the association get’s there why.

 

[chellow]

You really think the USAir  Auto and Facility mechanics are going to give up there AMT seniority with out a fight, I won't.