TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[NYer]

 
Chellow
 
The TWU contract has two different title groups one for AMT and the other for Facilities/automotive. We are the larger group so when the integration is done with the McKaskill Bond each title group will stay where it is. That means it will not effect any AMT.  The title 2 guys will get merged with the occupational seniority they have in that work group. USAir has one seniority list we have two. Our contract effects more so it will be done the AA way. I can't say this is a Fact but why would AA let the smaller USAir IAM represented employees run the show. If AMFA came in as our new union we would keep the TWO title groups as well.
 
McKaskill is the merger by occupational seniority in your current JOB. This along with the TWA Kasher ruling has been thought of. NO one knows how that is going to pan out. It is all speculation if anyone says different.
 
This will all get worked out as the merger takes Place. It will either get done by the Assoc. or the TWU but since the IAM is much smaller group as it was with TWA I can only assume the same will happen AA and the TWU will be the ruling union.
 
If it was up to me which it isn't I would do it completely by occupational straight across the board. 
 
Also the TWA guys are NOT going to get their seniority back either, No matter what the IAM says. Within maintenance there is a 9000 to 4500 ratio. so why would AA mechanics let that happen? Not sure what the ratio is in Fleet and stores but I doubt they would let it be done that way either.
 
Just another reason for mechanics both uS and AA to shed the TWU/IAM and sign cards to not have to worry about that scenario.

 
McCaskill-Bond does not say it "is the merger by occupational seniority in your current JOB."
 
There is a seniority integration agreement between the TWU and IAM, that has to take into consideration the different title groups and their placement as it relates to each work classification.
 
If the seniority is worked out between the two unions, McCaskill-Bond won't be an issue.

 

[NYer]

NYer
 
During the 2003 negotiations M&R was required to give up so much so it was that issue that a member of LAX Local who was sent other than the Local Pres. who  brought up for MTC to give up that 50% sick pay so less would be cut in other places.
 
As far as the roll call when the TWU Local in Tulsa is promised something by the ATD to protect the numbers there they call the roll and force the T/A back on the rest of us. --So the main attribute for AMFA is that each Member can vote...but when 514 uses that methodology, the use of their numbers in a Roll Call, it is seen as bad....And that must be because the smaller numbers didn't get what they wanted. Isn't the majority supposed to win.
 
The TWU also gave up the Baker Letter for the MTC Locals closing the small locals taking all the money and putting in one place just in case they need to do a Money grab, to get this ONE Line Local 591 and then they somehow scammed that back in as well since we Now have more union guys off the floor than we did when we had our own Local. --Wasn't having one Line Local and idea bandied about by Bob.
 
Little is Gone and so is Bobby Gless and Don Vedeitich, from the ATD but we still have other scammers and the new head of the TWU was Littles VP. so what does that say. --It says that no matter who's in charge, they will be looked at cross-eyed. There has been turnover in the International, ATD and Presidents but AMFA still can't get in. I guess they don't have the numbers yet. Don't worry, there will be more changes and you guys can continue to have the same complaints regardless of who is actually in charge.

 

[NYer]

I believe what Bob Owens told us.  He was there and he has never lied to us.  The international does not like Bob because he informs the members of the goings on.  The international, who has lied many times to us, claims it was the local presidents who did it.  Bob claims otherwise.  Like I said, I believe Bob. --So despite the many years in his leadership role, Bob has been unable to change anything. He has been unable to outsmart people that are believed to be inferior. How can that possibly be.
 
According to Bob (and the federal judge who ruled in favor of Jim Little imposing a contract on us) that the local officials are only witnesses and the international owns the contract. --Wow. The CBA was imposed on us. So the vote and all that stuff was just a smoke screen because Jim Little was able to convince the Company and a FEDERAL Judge to impose a contract on us while making believe it was a vote. (the one that was voted down was just a clever gimmick).
 
Just so I have the correct score card. The reason AA AMT's are inferior to others in the industry, despite having true blue representatives, is because of Jim Little, Videtich, Gless, Lombardo and all the ATD and International Reps since 2003, the Fleet Presidents, 514, American Airlines and Judge Sean Lane all conspiring with each other to make it so.
 
 I guess you figure we all have a short memory.  And yes I do honestly believe that any AMT who would rather continue to allow a union run by other work groups continue to screw them has got to be stupid. --That won't get you the cards you need.
 
Lowest pay in the industry and lowest benefits in the union.  If FS was historically paid lower at AA than United, Delta and Southwest with the AMTs at AA historically being paid above standard, would you want to continue that trend?  Of course not.  You are happy with the TWU and that is up to you. --You're assuming I'm happy with the TWU, which I'm not. There are issues that need to be addressed like the lack of information being shared...for instance.
 
I would hope the other groups would be vocal to the international about the mistreatment of the AMTs but that is not going to happen obviously. --Not if you keep calling everyone that disagrees, "stupid"
 
 Now I have wasted enough cyber space on this and I'm not going to keep posting the same stuff time and time again.  You have a completely different view of the events and also don't want to admit that it is not unionism if one group is singled out for more pay and benefit cuts than others in the same union. --That's one way to look at it. Another way is to see that the one group that complains and believes in conspiracy theories happen to be the same ones being held down. The fact that other groups have fared better with the same systems in place, the same leadership and the same challenges would lead reasonable people to believe that the common denominator must the misinformation being received by that group.
 
 
Conversely, it is not right for the same union to mandate equal improvements for all groups while not restoring the benefits of the discriminated group.  Regardless of how you try to spin that, the international did not allow a TA for me to vote on that had the same benefits as you.  Bob said that Gless and Videtich were responsible for this.  You are neither an AMT nor are you in the international (so you say) so you were not there.  You are merely repeating the story given by the international.  Bob was there.  I trust Bob Owens so I believe him.  That's about as simple as I can put it.  As Forest Gump would say "That's all I got to say about that." --You can believe Bob Owens if you'd like and if he says that the troubles of the AMT is squarely on being mistreated by Gless, Videtich, Little, Conley, the Company, Judge Lane, all the ATD staff for the last 10 years, all the International staff for the last 10 years, all the Fleet Presidents for the last 10 years, Local 514, all the negotiators, lawyers and financial experts employed by the TWU...then I guess that's reasonable.

 

[Vortilon]

 

I believe what Bob Owens told us.  He was there and he has never lied to us.  The international does not like Bob because he informs the members of the goings on.  The international, who has lied many times to us, claims it was the local presidents who did it.  Bob claims otherwise.  Like I said, I believe Bob. --So despite the many years in his leadership role, Bob has been unable to change anything. He has been unable to outsmart people that are believed to be inferior. How can that possibly be.
 
According to Bob (and the federal judge who ruled in favor of Jim Little imposing a contract on us) that the local officials are only witnesses and the international owns the contract. --Wow. The CBA was imposed on us. So the vote and all that stuff was just a smoke screen because Jim Little was able to convince the Company and a FEDERAL Judge to impose a contract on us while making believe it was a vote. (the one that was voted down was just a clever gimmick).
 
Just so I have the correct score card. The reason AA AMT's are inferior to others in the industry, despite having true blue representatives, is because of Jim Little, Videtich, Gless, Lombardo and all the ATD and International Reps since 2003, the Fleet Presidents, 514, American Airlines and Judge Sean Lane all conspiring with each other to make it so.
 
 I guess you figure we all have a short memory.  And yes I do honestly believe that any AMT who would rather continue to allow a union run by other work groups continue to screw them has got to be stupid. --That won't get you the cards you need.
 
Lowest pay in the industry and lowest benefits in the union.  If FS was historically paid lower at AA than United, Delta and Southwest with the AMTs at AA historically being paid above standard, would you want to continue that trend?  Of course not.  You are happy with the TWU and that is up to you. --You're assuming I'm happy with the TWU, which I'm not. There are issues that need to be addressed like the lack of information being shared...for instance.
 
I would hope the other groups would be vocal to the international about the mistreatment of the AMTs but that is not going to happen obviously. --Not if you keep calling everyone that disagrees, "stupid"
 
 Now I have wasted enough cyber space on this and I'm not going to keep posting the same stuff time and time again.  You have a completely different view of the events and also don't want to admit that it is not unionism if one group is singled out for more pay and benefit cuts than others in the same union. --That's one way to look at it. Another way is to see that the one group that complains and believes in conspiracy theories happen to be the same ones being held down. The fact that other groups have fared better with the same systems in place, the same leadership and the same challenges would lead reasonable people to believe that the common denominator must the misinformation being received by that group.
 
 
Conversely, it is not right for the same union to mandate equal improvements for all groups while not restoring the benefits of the discriminated group.  Regardless of how you try to spin that, the international did not allow a TA for me to vote on that had the same benefits as you.  Bob said that Gless and Videtich were responsible for this.  You are neither an AMT nor are you in the international (so you say) so you were not there.  You are merely repeating the story given by the international.  Bob was there.  I trust Bob Owens so I believe him.  That's about as simple as I can put it.  As Forest Gump would say "That's all I got to say about that." --You can believe Bob Owens if you'd like and if he says that the troubles of the AMT is squarely on being mistreated by Gless, Videtich, Little, Conley, the Company, Judge Lane, all the ATD staff for the last 10 years, all the International staff for the last 10 years, all the Fleet Presidents for the last 10 years, Local 514, all the negotiators, lawyers and financial experts employed by the TWU...then I guess that's reasonable.

 

Why would that be so hard to believe?  Everyone of them stood to gain something!  Jury is still out on judge Lane - no pun intended.

 

[Vortilon]

 

I believe what Bob Owens told us.  He was there and he has never lied to us.  The international does not like Bob because he informs the members of the goings on.  The international, who has lied many times to us, claims it was the local presidents who did it.  Bob claims otherwise.  Like I said, I believe Bob. --So despite the many years in his leadership role, Bob has been unable to change anything. He has been unable to outsmart people that are believed to be inferior. How can that possibly be.
 
According to Bob (and the federal judge who ruled in favor of Jim Little imposing a contract on us) that the local officials are only witnesses and the international owns the contract. --Wow. The CBA was imposed on us. So the vote and all that stuff was just a smoke screen because Jim Little was able to convince the Company and a FEDERAL Judge to impose a contract on us while making believe it was a vote. (the one that was voted down was just a clever gimmick).
 
Just so I have the correct score card. The reason AA AMT's are inferior to others in the industry, despite having true blue representatives, is because of Jim Little, Videtich, Gless, Lombardo and all the ATD and International Reps since 2003, the Fleet Presidents, 514, American Airlines and Judge Sean Lane all conspiring with each other to make it so.
 
 I guess you figure we all have a short memory.  And yes I do honestly believe that any AMT who would rather continue to allow a union run by other work groups continue to screw them has got to be stupid. --That won't get you the cards you need.
 
Lowest pay in the industry and lowest benefits in the union.  If FS was historically paid lower at AA than United, Delta and Southwest with the AMTs at AA historically being paid above standard, would you want to continue that trend?  Of course not.  You are happy with the TWU and that is up to you. --You're assuming I'm happy with the TWU, which I'm not. There are issues that need to be addressed like the lack of information being shared...for instance.
 
I would hope the other groups would be vocal to the international about the mistreatment of the AMTs but that is not going to happen obviously. --Not if you keep calling everyone that disagrees, "stupid"
 
 Now I have wasted enough cyber space on this and I'm not going to keep posting the same stuff time and time again.  You have a completely different view of the events and also don't want to admit that it is not unionism if one group is singled out for more pay and benefit cuts than others in the same union. --That's one way to look at it. Another way is to see that the one group that complains and believes in conspiracy theories happen to be the same ones being held down. The fact that other groups have fared better with the same systems in place, the same leadership and the same challenges would lead reasonable people to believe that the common denominator must the misinformation being received by that group.
 
 
Conversely, it is not right for the same union to mandate equal improvements for all groups while not restoring the benefits of the discriminated group.  Regardless of how you try to spin that, the international did not allow a TA for me to vote on that had the same benefits as you.  Bob said that Gless and Videtich were responsible for this.  You are neither an AMT nor are you in the international (so you say) so you were not there.  You are merely repeating the story given by the international.  Bob was there.  I trust Bob Owens so I believe him.  That's about as simple as I can put it.  As Forest Gump would say "That's all I got to say about that." --You can believe Bob Owens if you'd like and if he says that the troubles of the AMT is squarely on being mistreated by Gless, Videtich, Little, Conley, the Company, Judge Lane, all the ATD staff for the last 10 years, all the International staff for the last 10 years, all the Fleet Presidents for the last 10 years, Local 514, all the negotiators, lawyers and financial experts employed by the TWU...then I guess that's reasonable.

 

How is it your post count never goes up on this BB?  Something we should know about there Mr TWU Troll.  I'm convinced you are a paid TWU Troll.  I know a lot of FSCs, not a one of them has near the amount of interest in the M&R contract as you have.  You are a TWU fabrication.

 

[WeAAsles]

Why would that be so hard to believe?  Everyone of them stood to gain something!  Jury is still out on judge Lane - no pun intended.

So "everyone" even people within your own Title group have been conspiring to lower the standards of Aircraft Maintenance professionals? And I guess that also has to be all the other Unions who represent AMT's as well and the people who work and are elected in those groups since NONE of them have come out ahead in at least the last decade in the airline industry?

So you think the entire world has painted a bulls-eye on your back I guess? Interesting.

 

[MetalMover]

So "everyone" even people within your own Title group have been conspiring to lower the standards of Aircraft Maintenance professionals? And I guess that also has to be all the other Unions who represent AMT's as well and the people who work and are elected in those groups since NONE of them have come out ahead in at least the last decade in the airline industry?

So you think the entire world has painted a bulls-eye on your back I guess? Interesting.

Maybe it's the TWU's version of Obama's redistribution of wealth. Take from those who make more so those that don't are happy.
WeAAsles, I have been in this business waaaaaaay longer than you. And I can tell you thee mechanics have lost the most in terms of work given to other groups and outsourcing. 
 
How do you think the industry is going to handle the AMT shortage? Make it a rewarding career once again with good pay and benefits? Or petition the government to lower the standards so virtually anyone can do it?

 

[WeAAsles]

How is it your post count never goes up on this BB?  Something we should know about there Mr TWU Troll.  I'm convinced you are a paid TWU Troll.  I know a lot of FSCs, not a one of them has near the amount of interest in the M&R contract as you have.  You are a TWU fabrication.

So again continue to attack the poster rather than try to debate his facts? Is this how you expect to gain any converts or fence sitters? Who cares what the person's profession is either if you can't debate his facts for your side of the argument.

Maybe he's just someone who's done his homework?

 

[MetalMover]

 


--You can believe Bob Owens if you'd like and if he says that the troubles of the AMT is squarely on being mistreated by Gless, Videtich, Little, Conley, the Company, Judge Lane, all the ATD staff for the last 10 years, all the International staff for the last 10 years, all the Fleet Presidents for the last 10 years, Local 514, all the negotiators, lawyers and financial experts employed by the TWU...then I guess that's reasonable.

Tell us NYer...Who do YOU believe in the TWU? Who do YOU trust?  And more importantly WHY?

 

[WeAAsles]

How do you think the industry is going to handle the AMT shortage? Make it a rewarding career again with good pay and benefits? Or petition the government to lower the standards so virtually anyone can do it?

It seems that the standards have already been lowered since there is so much work being outsourced and shipped overseas with very little FAA oversight?

You're an AMFA supporter. Can you show me any examples that AMFA has on how they have been combating the loss of good paying AMT work here in the US? Do they have lobbyists on Capital Hill that are shining an effective spotlight on the issue? Do they have the money and resources to be able to fight against IATA who is the one fighting to offshore your jobs as much as possible?

  http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCTF/AMC_ExecComment_FY09.pdf

 

[WeAAsles]

It seems that the standards have already been lowered since there is so much work being outsourced and shipped overseas with very little FAA oversight?

You're an AMFA supporter. Can you show me any examples that AMFA has on how they have been combating the loss of good paying AMT work here in the US? Do they have lobbyists on Capital Hill that are shining an effective spotlight on the issue? Do they have the money and resources to be able to fight against IATA who is the one fighting to offshore your jobs as much as possible?

  http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCTF/AMC_ExecComment_FY09.pdf

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCC-2011-SIN/Day_02/1400-1430_Boeing_Trends_in_Aviation_and_MRO_Opportunities.pdf

 

[MetalMover]

It seems that the standards have already been lowered since there is so much work being outsourced and shipped overseas with very little FAA oversight?

You're an AMFA supporter. Can you show me any examples that AMFA has on how they have been combating the loss of good paying AMT work here in the US? Do they have lobbyists on Capital Hill that are shining an effective spotlight on the issue? Do they have the money and resources to be able to fight against IATA who is the one fighting to offshore your jobs as much as possible?

  http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCTF/AMC_ExecComment_FY09.pdf

The problem with your argument is that outsourcing HAS and WILL continue to occur NO MATTER WHAT! Tell me, what did the TWU do for its mechanics having already agreed to outsourcing? At the end of this current contract, I still will be barely at top pay under the 2001 short lived contract.
Did YOUR salary and benefits increase having lost fleet service work at smaller stations? let alone concessions.  Mine certainly hasn't!
You keep blaming AMFA regarding outsourcing...who is larger?  AMFA OR THE TWU?    IAM OR AMFA?  The TWU has done NOTHING to stem the outsourcing trend except a few letters to the government here and there....BIG DEAL!
 
The TWU's position on stopping outsourcing is either giving it to other work groups or keeping it in the US.
 
And please, please don't tell me they saved jobs.....AA's Title 1 list was in the mid 12000's and is currently in the mid 7600's.
Maybe we should all work for minimum wage and NO benefits.  this way we can have 100% employment!!  Sound good to you?

 

[WeAAsles]

The problem with your argument is that outsourcing HAS and WILL continue to occur NO MATTER WHAT! Tell me, what did the TWU do for its mechanics having already agreed to outsourcing? At the end of this current contract, I still will be barely at top pay under the 2001 short lived contract.
Did YOUR salary and benefits increase having lost fleet service work at smaller stations? let alone concessions.  Mine certainly hasn't!
You keep blaming AMFA regarding outsourcing...who is larger?  AMFA OR THE TWU?    IAM OR AMFA?  The TWU has done NOTHING to stem the outsourcing trend except a few letters to the government here and there....BIG DEAL!
 
The TWU's position on stopping outsourcing is either giving it to other work groups or keeping it in the US.

Read again and stop being defensive. Where did I say that I blamed AMFA regarding outsourcing? But I have seen both the TWU and the IAM "TRY" to lobby on Capital Hill to stop the trend of outsourcing your work citing the dangers involved in these poorly run MRO's. Another reason I support the association is because together and if the two unions can lock up the US airline industry they just may have a little more muscle to be able to shine a light on the issues that are affecting you?

You talk about the concessions but the reality is that just like my group there are people out there willing to do the work for much less than what you and I are being paid. Maybe there aren't as many people interested in the US at going to school to get the degree because it's not as attractive as it once was? The airlines will lobby to solve that issue if they have to by getting the Politicians to agree to let immigrants come in from other countries who have those skills in the future if they have to? Watch. And look at the forecast for outsourcing in that second link I provided. 

We're on the same team brother and just because you turn a wrench and I work a Ramplink doesn't make the fact that they want to get rid of both of us any different. I don't know why some of you guys don't get that? Stop thinking we're enemies and letting other people put that thought in your mind.

That's stupid thinking.  

 

[comatose]

Read again and stop being defensive. Where did I say that I blamed AMFA regarding outsourcing? But I have seen both the TWU and the IAM "TRY" to lobby on Capital Hill to stop the trend of outsourcing your work citing the dangers involved in these poorly run MRO's. Another reason I support the association is because together and if the two unions can lock up the US airline industry they just may have a little more muscle to be able to shine a light on the issues that are affecting you?

You talk about the concessions but the reality is that just like my group there are people out there willing to do the work for much less than what you and I are being paid. Maybe there aren't as many people interested in the US at going to school to get the degree because it's not as attractive as it once was? The airlines will lobby to solve that issue if they have to by getting the Politicians to agree to let immigrants come in from other countries who have those skills in the future if they have to? Watch. And look at the forecast for outsourcing in that second link I provided. 

We're on the same team brother and just because you turn a wrench and I work a Ramplink doesn't make the fact that they want to get rid of both of us any different. I don't know why some of you guys don't get that? Stop thinking we're enemies and letting other people put that thought in your mind.

That's stupid thinking.  

 
 
The key word is TRY.
 
Both the TWU and IAM  "have tried" to negotiate......maybe not for their membership but their self serving union leadership.
 
It's very bitter saying leadership. The International's leadership is anything but leaders.
 
Ask yourself one question......just one.
 
1. Has the TWU or IAM brought any thing back to the membership(in recent memory) worth warranting keeping the TWU or IAM?
 
I can recall several items both have brought back warranting their departure.

 

[MetalMover]

Read again and stop being defensive. Where did I say that I blamed AMFA regarding outsourcing? But I have seen both the TWU and the IAM "TRY" to lobby on Capital Hill to stop the trend of outsourcing your work citing the dangers involved in these poorly run MRO's. Another reason I support the association is because together and if the two unions can lock up the US airline industry they just may have a little more muscle to be able to shine a light on the issues that are affecting you? Defensive? Are YOU not defending the TWU and the Alliance? The lobbying effort by the IAM and TWU is more for overseas MRO's. As far as the two loser unions having more "muscle", let me remind you that just about into the 80's, the IAM represented more airline ground workers than any other union. Where did STRENGTH IN NUMBERS get them? Where did STRENGTH IN NUMBERS GET US?

You talk about the concessions but the reality is that just like my group there are people out there willing to do the work for much less than what you and I are being paid. Maybe there aren't as many people interested in the US at going to school to get the degree because it's not as attractive as it once was? The airlines will lobby to solve that issue if they have to by getting the Politicians to agree to let immigrants come in from other countries who have those skills in the future if they have to? Watch. And look at the forecast for outsourcing in that second link I provided. I guess the TWU will be more than happy to have the standards lowered for immigrants as long as they can collect union dues from them. Companies love to preach that MARKET RATES AND CONDITIONS dictate salaries. There is a looming AMT shortage and I haven't seen the MARKET RATES AND CONDITIONS THEORY applied.

We're on the same team brother and just because you turn a wrench and I work a Ramplink doesn't make the fact that they want to get rid of both of us any different. I don't know why some of you guys don't get that? Stop thinking we're enemies and letting other people put that thought in your mind.  I have NEVER and still DO NOT belittle any other work group. But when the TWU fleet service majority dictated every dime I made for years, sorry, I do not want to return to that way of doing business. And THAT is what will happen with the ALLIANCE.
I say whatever one work group could get, more power to them. We all have different needs and issues.

That's stupid thinking.  
What IS stupid thinking is believing the ALLIANCE will benefit us because of MUSCLE at the bargaining table.