TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
FACT--AMFA used to have 20,000 Members at one point. Correct?
 
FACT--AMFA currently has about 2,000 Members. Correct?
 
FACT--There are more ex-AMFA Members that voted them out than current AMFA Members. Correct?  NOT sure but UAL was only carrier that voted them out, after IBT swore to get pension back and keep Indy open and stop outsourcing and get all the guys back off of layoff which did NOT happen.
 
FACT--AMFA has been trying to organize AA for a decade, with no success. Correct?
 
No, AMFA Does not have a organizing group, its been the AMT's here
 
FACT--AMFA allows outsourcing at the two remaining shops it still represents. Correct?
 
Fact the TWU allows outsourcing, Fact the IBT allows outsourcing, Fact The IAM allows outsourcing, so what is you point?
 
FACT--AMFA could be getting cards signed right now and have their name of the representation ballot along with the Association. Correct?
 
The organizer are still collecting cards even at a slow rate, if the NMB allows a vote and the AMFA organizers have sufficient cards they will be allowed to be added as a intervenor on the ballot 
 
The best argument for AMFA seems to be that they're not the TWU and everyone votes for everything.
 
Looking at the track record of the IAM and the TWU here at AA I would say that AMFA is a better choice. The IAM Failed at the following carriers,  TWA, US Air, Continental, United, and had No plan when they took Eastern Out on strike. The TWU has taken the AMT's backward and done nothing for us as a class and craft since I have been in the industry, 30+ yrs. 16 of which has been at AA.

 
 
If you are a Fleet person why does it make a difference what the mechanics do?
 
How does what the mechanics do as far as union selection hurt your class and craft at ALL?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AGAIN you are trying to say say what I think or how I feel about something you have no clue on.  Just like others out here and I will not allow it.  I responded to another individual on a total seperate subject and you are still spinning my post to reflect to your agenda.  You are completely off your rocker.  Simply say; Oh sorry swamt, I took your post wrong, my bad.  And move on dude, don't try to bring me into your agenda, won't happen...

 
 
SWAMT
 
You have been a great supporter of our cause but what have you done with your fellow workers to influence the NEC and the AMFA Locals to get behind this fight here at AA and make AMFA a Big player in the Airline BIZ?

 

[NYer]

 
 
If you are a Fleet person why does it make a difference what the mechanics do?
 
How does what the mechanics do as far as union selection hurt your class and craft at ALL?

 
So the facts to questions 1, 2, 3 are true statements.
 
The 4th needs to be modified that "AA AMT's have been trying to organize and bring in AMFA for a decade", to be correct.
 
Then questions 5 & 6 are true statements.
 
And with 7, you wanted a scorecard? Then these airlines have also been failed by AMFA since they at some point represented their Members....."AMFA was winning elections at other airlines beyond Ozark, including Braniff, Hughes Air West, and the Trump Shuttle"......."AMFA won the right to represent the mechanic & related class at Mesaba in 1996. Another victory followed at Alaska Airlines in 1998, AMFA was certified as the representational agent for 10,000 mechanics and aircraft cleaners at Northwest in 1999. Southwest was won a year later in 2002. Horizon Air also joined AMFA in 2002. United Airlines was added in July 2003. AMFA, “The little union that could” now represented 3 of the top 5 and half of the top 10 major Airlines in the United States".......Fast forward to 2014 and what remains is Southwest and Alaska with about 2000 Members. That is not exactly a sterling endorsement.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

As we have compared facts it all the unions in the industry that have failed. Yet as a TWU represented employee you want to tell the Mechanics how bad the AMFA is. WHY?
 
Is it that you want the mechanics to stay TWU, and why would that be. 
 
If we hate the TWU why can't you guys just say Good riddance.?
 
There has got to be a reasonable answer why the TWU still feels they need guys like
yourself to put down the AMFA and attempt to keep the mechanics, can you explain that one to all of us.
 
You guys call us elitists and we put your class and craft down so if we are that in your eyes then let us go do what we want and stop bashing the union we want.
 
If we fail and you say we will then all of YOU can Laugh at us and call us fools and then be happy if we come crawling back to the TWU.

 

[NYer]

As we have compared facts it all the unions in the industry that have failed. Yet as a TWU represented employee you want to tell the Mechanics how bad the AMFA is. WHY? --I'm comparing, just like the AMFA supporters do. Are we to believe that what is shared about AMFA should go unchecked. The point is to get a better union, right? Then let's do that, but in doing so shouldn't we see all the positives and negatives.
 
Is it that you want the mechanics to stay TWU, and why would that be. --The majority chooses what happens. If there is a choice to be made everyone needs to know what they face. That's just the smart way to do things.
 
If we hate the TWU why can't you guys just say Good riddance.? --Hate all you want, but don't use that hate to hide facts or misrepresent what the choices are. Not everyone hates the TWU but maybe a better alternative would be chosen, if in fact it is a better alternative. Having someone that hates the TWU say its a better alternative, doesn't make it so.
 
There has got to be a reasonable answer why the TWU still feels they need guys like
yourself to put down the AMFA and attempt to keep the mechanics, can you explain that one to all of us. --Put down AMFA. Merely stating the facts. Not hyperbole, not rhetoric...just the facts.
 
You guys call us elitists and we put your class and craft down so if we are that in your eyes then let us go do what we want and stop bashing the union we want. --I don't know who "you guys" is, but I don't call people names. We just discussions and debates. Those that choose to belittle because they have no other form to counter the arguments just show everyone else exactly how strong their arguments actually are.
 
If we fail and you say we will then all of YOU can Laugh at us and call us fools and then be happy if we come crawling back to the TWU. --What's the point of that. Hopefully, no one has to go through a mistake in order to find a better alternative, if there is a better alternative.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

NYer
 
Debating the facts about AMFA is one thing if you are a mechanic, if you are a Fleet represented employee or stores or any other work group then WHY do you bother?
 
At that point its just your way of antagonism, now if you are a mechanic and have a different view about things then , I have No problem with you putting your Two cents in this.
 
And like others here they are just TWU or IAM supporters who want to bash AMFA,
That is what I meant by the You guys.

 

[Vortilon]

 
Nope, no ulterior motive. Just the reality of the situation.
 
We gave up in 2003 to try and keep certain items that would have been at risk if the airline would have filed for BK, like most the other airlines did. Unfortunately, the other airlines filed BK after 2003 so it made our cuts look pale in comparison. We were able to keep many extra jobs that were eliminated in other airlines. We were able to keep our medical lower than the most of the other airlines that filed BK. We were able to accrue our Pensions for another decade and everyone that retired in that time was able to take advantage of the Retiree Medical.
 
During the negotiations of 2008, the mantra was restore and more. Those negotiations lasted into 2011 and in 2012 we finally got a CBA under the umbrella of BK. In hindsight, we would have been better off trying to recover wages a contract at a time, instead of trying to get double digit raises during one of the worst economic meltdowns this country has even had.
 
Today, we can try and capitalize on the CEO that has publicly stated he wants to pay industry leading wages, in an industry with record profits...but in the meantime, we're actually trying to create a scenario that we could lose out window of opportunity to take advantage of the most favorable conditions this industry has ever had. But nooooooooooo, we want to stop the process of the Association and waste the time to have votes that could turn us over to the IAM (which most here believe is worse than the TWU) instead of trying to get the industry leading wages we could get.

 
 
You're right about one thing, now is the right time to negotiate an industry leading contract - kinda like 1995 was...right!  Let's take a walk down memory lane shall we. The year is 1995 - AA is on track to make record profits for the forseeable future, and the TWU locks in a 6 year POS contact getting us a 1% raise each year!  Remember the TWU excuse, referrencing a three year old survey.  Oh, and there was no voter fraud during that ballot count - said no one ever!  Yeah, I thought about it, No effing way do I want a bunch of limp wristed, TWU commies negotiating for AA's AMTs again!  

 

[737823]

You're right about one thing, now is the right time to negotiate an industry leading contract - kinda like 1995 was...right!  Let's take a walk down memory lane shall we. The year is 1995 - AA is on track to make record profits for the forseeable future, and the TWU locks in a 6 year POS contact getting us a 1% raise each year!  Remember the TWU excuse, referrencing a three year old survey.  Oh, and there was no voter fraud during that ballot count - said no one ever!  Yeah, I thought about it, No effing way do I want a bunch of limp wristed, TWU commies negotiating for AA's AMTs again! 

"We'll get 'em next time"

Josh

 

[enough already]

We gave up in 2003...

 

[2ndGENAMT]

 
FACT--AMFA used to have 20,000 Members at one point. Correct?
FACT- The TWU/IAM/IBT once had many more members than they currently have!    
 
FACT--AMFA currently has about 2,000 Members. Correct?
FACT-Members that are currently compensated higher than TWU/IAM and most IBT!
 
FACT--There are more ex-AMFA Members that voted them out than current AMFA Members. Correct?
FACT- There are more than 2000 Ex TWU M&R who are gone due to the TWU failures with more to come!
 
FACT--AMFA has been trying to organize AA for a decade, with no success. Correct?
FACT- The AMFA was beginning their success just before the worst economic decade for the Airline Industry!
 
FACT--AMFA allows outsourcing at the two remaining shops it still represents. Correct?
FACT- Their are no Airlines who do not outsource Maintenance!
 
FACT--AMFA could be getting cards signed right now and have their name of the representation ballot along with the Association. Correct?
FACT- They (The people on the floor) are collecting cards and not by throwing their members treasury at it as the IBT!
 
The best argument for AMFA seems to be that they're not the TWU and everyone votes for everything.
 
The best argument for the AMFA is YOU and anyone with the same mindset!!

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

 
So the facts to questions 1, 2, 3 are true statements.
 
The 4th needs to be modified that "AA AMT's have been trying to organize and bring in AMFA for a decade", to be correct.
 
Then questions 5 & 6 are true statements.
 
And with 7, you wanted a scorecard? Then these airlines have also been failed by AMFA since they at some point represented their Members....."AMFA was winning elections at other airlines beyond Ozark, including Braniff, Hughes Air West, and the Trump Shuttle"......."AMFA won the right to represent the mechanic & related class at Mesaba in 1996. Another victory followed at Alaska Airlines in 1998, AMFA was certified as the representational agent for 10,000 mechanics and aircraft cleaners at Northwest in 1999. Southwest was won a year later in 2002. Horizon Air also joined AMFA in 2002. United Airlines was added in July 2003. AMFA, “The little union that could” now represented 3 of the top 5 and half of the top 10 major Airlines in the United States".......Fast forward to 2014 and what remains is Southwest and Alaska with about 2000 Members. That is not exactly a sterling endorsement.

 
 
There are more former IAM mechanics than there are active IAM mechanics.
 
The IAM has lost mechanic groups at Eastern, TWA, Continental, United, NWA, Alaska, Aloha, etc , and has how many left at USAirways?
 
By your own metrics the IAM is by far worse when it comes to mechanics representation yet here you are, page after page, pushing an alliance with these abject failures.
 
Don't look now, your blatant hypocrisy is showing.

 

[Duke787]

The agenda of many on this thread is no problem to outsourcing as long as I get mine. So how many people are you willing to throw under the bus before someone else decides to throw you under it next?
This is why AMFA followers have such a bad rep. People read what you post here and say why am I going to sign a card for a group of guys who want to hose me?

How dense are you? Under the TWU we have the worst contract, and we have lost 2 OH bases with thousands of jobs, and Tulsa is not nearly as big as it once was. Just because the I have mine guys in TULSA are still working doesn't mean the TWU saved your job, an accountant at AA said it's cheaper to keep X amount work in house, along with the Tulsa chamber of commerce who decided to give X amount of tax breaks to AA.

 

[NYer]

 
 
You're right about one thing, now is the right time to negotiate an industry leading contract - kinda like 1995 was...right!  Let's take a walk down memory lane shall we. The year is 1995 - AA is on track to make record profits for the forseeable future, and the TWU locks in a 6 year POS contact getting us a 1% raise each year!  Remember the TWU excuse, referrencing a three year old survey.  Oh, and there was no voter fraud during that ballot count - said no one ever!  Yeah, I thought about it, No effing way do I want a bunch of limp wristed, TWU commies negotiating for AA's AMTs again! 

 
 
Memory lane? 1999 AMFA represented 10,000 Members in Northwest Airlines, today they don't...In 2003 AMFA represented thousands of Members at United, those Members decided to go elsewhere. In 1961 a few mechanics dissatisfied with the TWU at AA started their own union called AMFA...53 years later they STILL haven't been able to get enough cards to represent the original target work force.
 
If we're going to use the past as a harbinger for the future then we never progress.

 

[NYer]

 
 
There are more former IAM mechanics than there are active IAM mechanics.
 
The IAM has lost mechanic groups at Eastern, TWA, Continental, United, NWA, Alaska, Aloha, etc , and has how many left at USAirways?
 
By your own metrics the IAM is by far worse when it comes to mechanics representation yet here you are, page after page, pushing an alliance with these abject failures.
 
Don't look now, your blatant hypocrisy is showing.

 
With the Association the TWU continues to be your union. The only way for the IAM to become your union is to have a vote between the parties, which they'd have a fair chance of winning considering how many have blasted the TWU for most of their careers. 
 
Therefore, the hypocrisy lies in those that talk so much against the IAM and at the same time want a vote that would open the door for the IAM to win a vote and become your exclusive representative.
 
It doesn't seem many on here things these things through. Then again, the main agenda on these pages seems to be to promote a union that has failed in their attempt to represent TWU Members at AA for about 53 years.

 

[NYer]

 

 
FACT--AMFA used to have 20,000 Members at one point. Correct?
FACT- The TWU/IAM/IBT,& AMFA once had many more members than they currently have!    
 
FACT--AMFA currently has about 2,000 Members. Correct?
FACT-Members that are currently compensated higher than TWU/IAM and most IBT, at the expense of jobs. SWA & Alaska have 765 planes and 2,000 mechanics. AA & US have 889 planes with over 5 times as many mechanics. 
 
Better pay, less jobs or less jobs, better pay....your choice is?
 
FACT--There are more ex-AMFA Members that voted them out than current AMFA Members. Correct?
FACT- There are more than 2000 Ex TWU M&R who are gone due to the TWU failures with more to come! --Then is jobs are the priority AMFA is not really the best choice. They have better pay but far, far less jobs that earn that pay. So, is outsourcing an acceptable evil in return for higher pay rates for those that remain.
 
FACT--AMFA has been trying to organize AA for a decade, with no success. Correct?
FACT- The AMFA was beginning their success just before the worst economic decade for the Airline Industry! So AMFA failure is due to the economy, but everyone else is due to incompetence. Can't have both ways.
 
FACT--AMFA allows outsourcing at the two remaining shops it still represents. Correct?
FACT- Their are no Airlines who do not outsource Maintenance! Then shouldn't an airline that employs more mechanics than the AMFA represented airlines combined get some credit there.
 
FACT--AMFA could be getting cards signed right now and have their name of the representation ballot along with the Association. Correct?
FACT- They (The people on the floor) are collecting cards and not by throwing their members treasury at it as the IBT! OK, --Good job. If the Membership is as upset as represented here, then it should be an absolute lock they get themselves on the NMB ballot. Especially since they're had since August in order to get those cards in. I mean if everyone is pissed, the old excuses of Videtich & Co. sabotaging is no longer a threat. AMFA will be on the ballot. You guys should be ecstatic.
 
The best argument for AMFA seems to be that they're not the TWU and everyone votes for everything.
 
The best argument for the AMFA is YOU and anyone with the same mindset!! Little old me. There is supposed to be an AMT uprising at AA. Get it done already. It's been talked about for years, decades....Do it.