TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[toroshark]

OK if that is the case, where would the two IAM members be placed among the 150 TWU represented members? The SSN serial numbers of the TWU side are going to be all over the place, they won't be in sequential order, or ascending or descending order.

Give him a minute to make up some more jibberish for this question. All the crapoo he is spewing about being given a choice to remain with a matching 401k cannot be verified with a document from the proposed alliance either.

 

[TRAVIS]

Its obvious that NYer, whoever he is, is on a Mission to sell this deal,(with 700 along for the ride as well) he will lie, twist and simply make things up to sell this Alliance, and of course he will do it from behind an alias so if he is successful and this deal goes through and all his lies are exposed his alias can simply disappear and nobody can hold him accountable. The pension document clearly states that they intend to negotiate us all in the IAMNPF, nowhere in there does it say anything about trying to give us the option to keep the 401K match or go to the $2X 20280 hour fixed contribution. He made  that up. The Association document also states they can switch members back and forth with no input from the members, in fact when you read the document everything covered is without any input from the members or the elected local leaders. 
 
If I believed that this ASSOCIATION was capable of producing a true industry leading contract I would favor it, but only a fool would believe that. We saw what the IAM agreed to with a company that was posting billions in profits, and they had no one to blame.
 

Bob the IAM needs to go and it's ugly sister twu.
The IAM sealed it's fate with that contract, No one in there right mind would let these low life bum's represent them. No matter how bad the TWU has done for you guys the IAM makes the TWU look like gold.
 
JUST THINK WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO HAVE A UNION THAT REALTY DOES CARE. 
PUT THEM AMFA CARDS IN BOYS OR WELCOME TOO THE TWU!!!

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Correct.I don't agree. I certainly have more faith in the Membership and their ability to realize the consequences of voting no on a bankruptcy contract. We weren't in regular negotiations and the outcome of a no vote isn't to go back and have the pot "sweetened." That was apparent with the APA turning down their 17% cuts, having their CBA abrogated and coming back to accept a deal with the same 17% in cuts. I'm sure Bob will chime in and tell us the 17% the pilots gave up was a clever ruse by the APA and AA in which they tricked the other unions, all the Secured and Unsecured Creditors, their financial experts and their lawyers.If you choose to believe that conspiracy theory then that is your choice, but it is being done without a shred of fact.
 
You can raise Bob on your shoulders all you want, especially if you believe he deserves it but it is highly suspect that anyone that doesn't agree with Bob is anti-union, a communist, a Marxist or any other label that suits the need. That type of reaction to those that disagree with a certain point of view has many names....and objective is not one of them.

Nobody has called you a Marxist or communist to my knowledge.  But it is obvious to any of us who have been around for a while that the international has NEVER looked out for the AMT part of the membership.  Therefore when we are already at the bottom of the industry and they tell us that since AA has filed BK then we need to make more cuts then that is hard to believe.  Also throw in that their lawyers were proven to have lied to us and the buyout that bought yes votes.  Face it NYer, there are more AMTs here now who voted no than yes.  This shows the membership is NOT in favor of what you choose to believe.  You have the right to believe whatever you want and you even have the right to spin the facts to try to make your point, but I (and others) have the right to offer the accurate version of the spin.  The truth is that there are more AMTs employed at AA right now who voted no for the TA than yes.  You got your way with the international sweetening the pot for the yes vote.  Maybe you were afraid to vote no, maybe you actually believed the lies that were told to you.  This is water under the bridge now, but with your constant tries to justify any of this, it destroys your credibility.  Now is the time to get on the same page and devise a plan to fight back.  Bob Owens is trying to do that.  Your constant apologetics for the TWU international is making it harder to do that.  I would like to think we have a chance of actually getting stuff other airline AMTs have had for years.  If you are happy with the lowest pay and benefits then fine, but most of us are not.  I'm beginning to think that you are actually AA management.  Are they Marxists or communists?  Just wondering.

 

[NYer]

Nobody has called you a Marxist or communist to my knowledge.  But it is obvious to any of us who have been around for a while that the international has NEVER looked out for the AMT part of the membership.  Therefore when we are already at the bottom of the industry and they tell us that since AA has filed BK then we need to make more cuts then that is hard to believe.  Also throw in that their lawyers were proven to have lied to us and the buyout that bought yes votes.  Face it NYer, there are more AMTs here now who voted no than yes.  This shows the membership is NOT in favor of what you choose to believe.  You have the right to believe whatever you want and you even have the right to spin the facts to try to make your point, but I (and others) have the right to offer the accurate version of the spin.  The truth is that there are more AMTs employed at AA right now who voted no for the TA than yes.  You got your way with the international sweetening the pot for the yes vote.  Maybe you were afraid to vote no, maybe you actually believed the lies that were told to you.  This is water under the bridge now, but with your constant tries to justify any of this, it destroys your credibility.  Now is the time to get on the same page and devise a plan to fight back.  Bob Owens is trying to do that.  Your constant apologetics for the TWU international is making it harder to do that.  I would like to think we have a chance of actually getting stuff other airline AMTs have had for years.  If you are happy with the lowest pay and benefits then fine, but most of us are not.  I'm beginning to think that you are actually AA management.  Are they Marxists or communists?  Just wondering.

 
I don't back the International. I don't believe they're doing the best that can be done.
 
With that being said, I also don't believe that answer is AMFA. They've had tens of thousands of Members and now just have 2000. They've been around since 1964 and have been trying to organize AA for a decade. That's doesn't show me that we're better off with them ,quite the contrary.
 
The Membership has voted in people like Bob for a long time and they aspire to be fighters, but the reality is that they just blame others for things that don't come true. That being the case there are two ways to look at this. One...whatever the "fighters" say usually never happens and we're stuck in the mud which turns out to be someone else fault. If they're elected time and time again then they should be able to get what they say is achievable. They blame the International, other Locals, other work groups and other Presidents. Two...The 'fighters" are full of it but they know how to retain favor because they just simply feed off the frustrations everyone feels. I've gone back and forth with Bob on issues he brings up to "prove" his point, but simple fact checking usually proves his version of events as unfinished explanations. That doesn't raise credibility, it smashes it.
 
It is easy to just repeat what others want to hear, but it doesn't mean it true or accurate. There are seldom any facts attributed to arguments, just perceptions and twisting of events. All the PEB talks and being able to strike and all that stuff is complete nonsense and has never worked, if even attempted. The theories are flawed and are eaten up by those that seem to think it sounds right.
 
In the end, there are some that are AMFA supporters, there are some TWU supporters, there are IAM supporters I'd even venture to guess there are no union supporters, but in all that bunch the worst thing is when people don't agree with each other and they are automatically labeled. That's easier than just trying to counter whatever points the opposition may have. It becomes a personal attack. The majority vote for the TA, lets move on because yesterday won't be brought back.

 

[bigjets]

Hey get this, the APFA actually takes a vote if the union dues are raised. They haven't had a dues hike in years. Now this is where it gets weird, the FA's are unskilled labour, does not require a license or special education and they have a industry leading contract.

Now here is the kicker, the APFA is dealing with the same management that the IAM, and TWU are, and look what those two unions have accomplished. Worst and worstest contracts.

 

[Vortilon]

 
I don't back the International. I don't believe they're doing the best that can be done.
 
With that being said, I also don't believe that answer is AMFA. They've had tens of thousands of Members and now just have 2000. They've been around since 1964 and have been trying to organize AA for a decade. That's doesn't show me that we're better off with them ,quite the contrary.
 
The Membership has voted in people like Bob for a long time and they aspire to be fighters, but the reality is that they just blame others for things that don't come true. That being the case there are two ways to look at this. One...whatever the "fighters" say usually never happens and we're stuck in the mud which turns out to be someone else fault. If they're elected time and time again then they should be able to get what they say is achievable. They blame the International, other Locals, other work groups and other Presidents. Two...The 'fighters" are full of it but they know how to retain favor because they just simply feed off the frustrations everyone feels. I've gone back and forth with Bob on issues he brings up to "prove" his point, but simple fact checking usually proves his version of events as unfinished explanations. That doesn't raise credibility, it smashes it.
 
It is easy to just repeat what others want to hear, but it doesn't mean it true or accurate. There are seldom any facts attributed to arguments, just perceptions and twisting of events. All the PEB talks and being able to strike and all that stuff is complete nonsense and has never worked, if even attempted. The theories are flawed and are eaten up by those that seem to think it sounds right.
 
In the end, there are some that are AMFA supporters, there are some TWU supporters, there are IAM supporters I'd even venture to guess there are no union supporters, but in all that bunch the worst thing is when people don't agree with each other and they are automatically labeled. That's easier than just trying to counter whatever points the opposition may have. It becomes a personal attack. The majority vote for the TA, lets move on because yesterday won't be brought back.

 
 
NYer,  How is it you can type so much, and still fail to answer OldGuy's question?
We have all experienced how the TWU defends itself for it's terrible track record - it blames the membership!
In the case of the AMFA's track record, at least the membership made the choice through a vote!
The TWU doesn't allow observers at negotiations - Why?  I think we all know
AMFA allows observers at negotiations - nothing to hide!  Bam!
 
Point is, AA AMTs will be stuck in the suck for many more years to come with the JCBA or the TWU!
As Bob has pointed out many times, the way the negotiation committee is structured for the M&R group - the majority of presidents would be from fleet service locals.
These locals presidents will take from the TWU pie "communist style".  You know, at the expense of the AMTs.
For the above reason, and many others - it is imparitive that AAs AMTs move on to the AMFA!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
 
NYer,  How is it you can type so much, and still fail to answer OldGuy's question?
We have all experienced how the TWU defends itself for it's terrible track record - it blames the membership!
In the case of the AMFA's track record, at least the membership made the choice through a vote!
The TWU doesn't allow observers at negotiations - Why?  I think we all know
AMFA allows observers at negotiations - nothing to hide!  Bam!
 
Point is, AA AMTs will be stuck in the suck for many more years to come with the JCBA or the TWU!
As Bob has pointed out many times, the way the negotiation committee is structured for the M&R group - the majority of presidents would be from fleet service locals.
These locals presidents will take from the TWU pie "communist style".  You know, at the expense of the AMTs.
For the above reason, and many others - it is imparitive that AAs AMTs move on to the AMFA!

 
Vortilon
 
What you just explained to NY'er is what we have told so may here at AA but yet no matter what the TWU has done to our class and craft and what will be done when this association goes thru it will not change the FACT that the AMT'S at AA just don't care enough to even talk about what is going on within the confines of your break room, do they?
 
Everything we discuss here is just among the few who visit and put things here for others to read. The same group of Organizers have told us all at AA what will happen with the TWU and AA going forward and most of it has come true.
 
The Line guys which support AMFA are still the only group which will sign cards no matter what.  The base workers won't sign since they still drink the coolaid that the TWU peddles. So has title 2, been a group that won't support yours or my position.
 
We have talked about being transparent and the ability to sit in on NEG, and the fact that we can remove officers that don't work toward the memberships benefit, and still they don't sign cards. ( WHY)?
 
You must know someone who knows the Lead AMFA guys have they or any of the organizers themselves told you what the Plan is when the NMB rules?
How about what is the number of cards we have signed? How many cards did we turn in last time? What is the total combined work force?
 
There has been little to Zero chatter from the organizers why?
 
We are at the end of the campaign shouldn't there be a BIG and final push to make it happen?
 
Just how much is talked about in your work area?
 
Why haven't we seen a statement from AMFA's leaders? Where do they stand in all of this? I know this drive is and always has been a grass roots thing but at what point does AMFA National step in?
 
Is AMFA National ready to do what is necessary to complete the filing on time if the NMB gives us a ruling in the very near future?
 
Just what stations have any of the AMFA NEC visited this drive do you know?
 
 
This is the Time we all need to become organizers, get what ever cards we can.
If it does not happen this time around then we will be at the mercy of the TWU.
 
This will show them that NO Matter what they do to US, we will just take it.
 
It's a sickening thought isn't it?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Vortilon
 
What you just explained to NY'er is what we have told so may here at AA but yet no matter what the TWU has done to our class and craft and what will be done when this association goes thru it will not change the FACT that the AMT'S at AA just don't care enough to even talk about what is going on within the confines of your break room, do they?
 
Everything we discuss here is just among the few who visit and put things here for others to read. The same group of Organizers have told us all at AA what will happen with the TWU and AA going forward and most of it has come true.
 
The Line guys which support AMFA are still the only group which will sign cards no matter what.  The base workers won't sign since they still drink the coolaid that the TWU peddles. So has title 2, been a group that won't support yours or my position.
 
We have talked about being transparent and the ability to sit in on NEG, and the fact that we can remove officers that don't work toward the memberships benefit, and still they don't sign cards. ( WHY)?
 
You must know someone who knows the Lead AMFA guys have they or any of the organizers themselves told you what the Plan is when the NMB rules?
How about what is the number of cards we have signed? How many cards did we turn in last time? What is the total combined work force?
 
There has been little to Zero chatter from the organizers why?
 
We are at the end of the campaign shouldn't there be a BIG and final push to make it happen?
 
Just how much is talked about in your work area?
 
Why haven't we seen a statement from AMFA's leaders? Where do they stand in all of this? I know this drive is and always has been a grass roots thing but at what point does AMFA National step in?
 
Is AMFA National ready to do what is necessary to complete the filing on time if the NMB gives us a ruling in the very near future?
 
Just what stations have any of the AMFA NEC visited this drive do you know?
 
 
This is the Time we all need to become organizers, get what ever cards we can.
If it does not happen this time around then we will be at the mercy of the TWU.
 
This will show them that NO Matter what they do to US, we will just take it.
 
It's a sickening thought isn't it?

You are right on the money.  There are not enough AMTs who care enough to get AMFA in here.  Sadly we have too much complacency and there is resistance to any kind of change.  Nobody I know thinks the TWU will ever do anything to get us up to industry standard in pay and benefits but many won't sign cards because they believe the lies they have been told by the TWU.  Things like AMFA is the line guy's union and they'll sell out O/H.  In my opinion the TWU has sold all of us out.  The simple fact that FS or Stores can call in sick and get a full day's pay when we get half is unforgiveable.  Throw in all the other stuff and it should make it clear that we need to get away.  The TWU has proven they care about FS and Stores and not about AMTs.  I just wish everyone would see this and do something about it.  Do you think the FS in the international will do anything for AMTs?  Nobody can defend the actions of the TWU towards the AMTs.  Nyer has the right to believe the way he does.  We have the right to disagree.  But one thing is clear, the TWU will keep using these divisions to further damage our careers.  We have to find some kind of middle ground and make the TWU represent us.

 

[bigjets]

There are roughly 3000 TUL mechs and over 4000 line mechs, we will just have to get us ALL industry leading pay despite TUL fighting us all the way.

quick question, how many mechs did OH have at its highest and how many do we have now? After that is answered would a TUL mech explain how we are better off with the TWU over AMFA and no rhetoric please all facts only.

Who has more power for cooperate decisions, a union or an executive? Now how much OH has been farmed out while the TWU has represented the mechs at AA? I believe the the 777 cabin reconfiguration is done in Hong Kong, wow I'm surprised the TWU didn't have that work brought to TUL. Or does the TWU not have the power they pretend to have.

I say no Union or AMFA, why do we pay for this "representation" ?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

There are roughly 3000 TUL mechs and over 4000 line mechs, we will just have to get us ALL industry leading pay despite TUL fighting us all the way.

quick question, how many mechs did OH have at its highest and how many do we have now? After that is answered would a TUL mech explain how we are better off with the TWU over AMFA and no rhetoric please all facts only.

Who has more power for cooperate decisions, a union or an executive? Now how much OH has been farmed out while the TWU has represented the mechs at AA? I believe the the 777 cabin reconfiguration is done in Hong Kong, wow I'm surprised the TWU didn't have that work brought to TUL. Or does the TWU not have the power they pretend to have.

I say no Union or AMFA, why do we pay for this "representation" ?

I am a Tulsa mechanic and I have given the same argument as you have.  O/H is being farmed out as we speak but the TWU has told the koolaid drinkers that more O/H will be farmed out if AMFA gets in.  Off record the local officials will admit that under the 35% of spend R.O. Tulsa could be shut down entirely and AA would still be under the 35%.  I find mostly complacency is the norm.  Most know the TWU is inadequate but don't like AMFA because of lies they have heard.  So most choose TWU by default in TUL. Of course the Stock Clerks in Tulsa love the TWU and laugh at the AMTs for being too stupid to get rid of the TWU.  They have 6 weeks of vacation, 100% sick pay, longevity and skill pay.  They also got their overtime rules improved.  We have been told that since they are a "Smaller group" they got to keep their vacation too.  To date I have got no real answer as to how Stores got pretty much all the pay raises we got plus skill pay along with keeping their 6th week of vacation when it was supposed to be a cost neutral contract.  Of course AMTs had to give something to get anything so we funded our improvements with our 6th week of vacation.  No word as to what if anything Stores gave up to fund their improvements.  Seems like they gave up nothing.  I would think this alone would be enough to get AMTs here to sign cards but it is not.  Nobody I talked to likes the idea of the alliance either but they won't do anything about it.  We have had cards signed in TUL but not near enough.  But honestly TULE has always been a problem when it comes to AMFA.  But I cannot tell you why there aren't enough angry AMTs around to make the change.  If anyone thinks the TWU is going to represent anyone but FS and Stores they are insane.  The proof is in the pudding.  Who has the better benefit package?  The TWU could have fixed that with this TA by getting the AMTs back the stuff the others never got taken away but they didn't because they continue to punish AMTs.  I guess most of the AMTs in TULE like being treated poorly by the union who garnishes dues from them and then "Negotiates" inferior benefits than a stock clerk. 

 

[NYer]

 
 
NYer,  How is it you can type so much, and still fail to answer OldGuy's question?
We have all experienced how the TWU defends itself for it's terrible track record - it blames the membership!
In the case of the AMFA's track record, at least the membership made the choice through a vote!
The TWU doesn't allow observers at negotiations - Why?  I think we all know
AMFA allows observers at negotiations - nothing to hide!  Bam!
 
Point is, AA AMTs will be stuck in the suck for many more years to come with the JCBA or the TWU!
As Bob has pointed out many times, the way the negotiation committee is structured for the M&R group - the majority of presidents would be from fleet service locals.
These locals presidents will take from the TWU pie "communist style".  You know, at the expense of the AMTs.
For the above reason, and many others - it is imparitive that AAs AMTs move on to the AMFA!

 
If you don't like the things then get enough cards and make the change. Problem is that after a decade of trying AMFA has been able to fulfill that very simple task.
 
And that is some reasoning...AMFA's track record is OK because at least the Members voted? Really. To me, what that shows is that AMFA isn't the answer, whether Members vote or not.
 
BTW--The Maintenance Presidents were the exclusive negotiators for the Tentative Agreement before BK and the BK CBA itself.....I know, I know...It's the Internationals' fault, not Fleet.

 

[NYer]

There are roughly 3000 TUL mechs and over 4000 line mechs, we will just have to get us ALL industry leading pay despite TUL fighting us all the way.

quick question, how many mechs did OH have at its highest and how many do we have now? After that is answered would a TUL mech explain how we are better off with the TWU over AMFA and no rhetoric please all facts only.

Who has more power for cooperate decisions, a union or an executive? Now how much OH has been farmed out while the TWU has represented the mechs at AA? I believe the the 777 cabin reconfiguration is done in Hong Kong, wow I'm surprised the TWU didn't have that work brought to TUL. Or does the TWU not have the power they pretend to have.

I say no Union or AMFA, why do we pay for this "representation" ?

 
How many mechanics are there at Alaska and SWA as compared to current AA numbers?
 
Are we to believe that going with AMFA means no outsourcing? Or is this just about raising wages?

 

[comatose]

 
If you don't like the things then get enough cards and make the change. Problem is that after a decade of trying AMFA has been able to fulfill that very simple task.
 
And that is some reasoning...AMFA's track record is OK because at least the Members voted? Really. To me, what that shows is that AMFA isn't the answer, whether Members vote or not.
 
BTW--The Maintenance Presidents were the exclusive negotiators for the Tentative Agreement before BK and the BK CBA itself.....I know, I know...It's the Internationals' fault, not Fleet.

 
 
Next you'll be telling me that the "maintenance presidents" negotiated away profit sharing.
 
The "maintenance presidents" are in negotiations with the IAM to create this so called ASSociation.
 
There is no way your from NY. You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

 

[bigjets]

How many mechanics are there at Alaska and SWA as compared to current AA numbers?
 
Are we to believe that going with AMFA means no outsourcing? Or is this just about raising wages?

We are shown proof that the TWU didn't protect OH, or AA closing MCI and AFW didn't happen?

It's the company business to create jobs for the needs it has, it's the unions job to collectively represent the members. So yes it's about the wages, we took cuts in 2003 to save pension, retiree medical, and jobs, so not only did those cuts not save pension insurance and jobs but we also lost pay.

Do you work for the union? Because your posts have a definite ulterior motive other then helping AA mechs, they have I got my Union job deal going and I don't want to lose it sound.

 

[Duke787]

How many mechanics are there at Alaska and SWA as compared to current AA numbers?
 
Are we to believe that going with AMFA means no outsourcing? Or is this just about raising wages?

AA already outsources, why not have a good wage? Or does making $45 an hour plus all the other stuff offend you?