eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Yep. I decided to call Ken's bluff, since I'm no longer covered by the ManAAgement Protection ProgrAAm.
Tulsa Manager Bonuses?
- Thread starter Birdman
- Start date
Yep. I decided to call Ken's bluff, since I'm no longer covered by the ManAAgement Protection ProgrAAm.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
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Question,
How does one go about changing the nick name on these bulletin boards? I cannot locate that option in my control panel.
I practically fell out of my chair.
As you realize, the painful reality (for AA's current members of the TWU) is that mechanics will make more money if (and when) sufficient numbers of them leave the profession and airlines find themselves having to bid up the wages to attract and retain the remaining ones.
Persuasive negotiation may help at the margin, but probably won't restore the wages to their 2002 levels, let alone the higher levels desired/demanded by Bob and Ken.
Well I would agree that the TWU gave AA a cost advantage for twenty years but I disagree that BK changed that and gave the advantage to other carriers.
Outsourcing OH does not eliminate OH costs, it may at best reduce costs, it may also increase costs by shifting them to higher costst on the line and lost revenue.
In the case of other carriers who did not have the TWU SRP/OSM program the only way to compete with AA was to outsource OH because in order to match AAs costs they would have had to have workers accept neraly 50% paycuts.
At best BK gave those carriers an equal footing with AA.
As long as AA keeps OH they have the means to maintain a competitive edge. If they outsourced all OH the MRO would set the cost, and that cost would be pretty much what everybody else pays. If AA outsourced all its OH they would lose this means to a competitive edge.
From what I’ve read MROs are not earning what would be expected with such an increase in demand. MRO prices are likely to increase especially as foreign aviation continues to grow. Labor costs are one of the few areas where the airlines have a lot of control, outsourcing eliminates that, now the MROs set the price.
My guess is that we will see consolidation in the MRO business. With consolidation costs for customers will increase.
By keeping OH and offering contract services to other carriers AA will maintain a cost advantage, because unlike their competitors who pay other companies for maintenance, at a rate that provides profits for those MRO companies, AA will have their maintenance done at cost and have their costs further offset by revenue from contract work.
As far as the contract proposals I would say that we are worlds apart.
Contract Proposal
1. Offer Early Out option to retire the large number of aged folks on the defined pension plan. A (3 and 3) 3 years age, 3 years seniority would probably dump the mother load into retirement quickly.
Why? Let the company offer that, don’t ask for current and future members to pay for something that saves the company money.
2. Offer an increase in pension benefit formula to the TWA mechanic so that they can afford to leave.
Once again, why ask for something that saves the company money?
3. Close MCI and offer full seniority to those few that will choose not to retire after #2 is implemented. Sell this overhaul base.
Again, let management come up with things like that. If the company proposes shutting the base say OK if they give them #1, #2 and systemwide occ sen.
4. Offer wage and benefit increase to the unretired mechanics possibly including stock options since the company doesnt seem to count those as cash offerings, we could gain substantially by this method.
Ok.
5. Offer Line Premium pay that will be worthwhile and offset high cost of living areas.
OK, but determining where its in effect should be in the contract and not at the company’s discretion like Flex Starting rates.
6. To fund cost of the above, create a new classification whereby new hires are no longer offered the defined pension but rather a 401(k) matching fund. And once again lenghten the time to top-scale pay. Through attrition, allow those that already have the defined pension to retire with that plan. Eventually the defined plan will no longer have a liability. But remove the defined plan from no employee.
Another Company proposal.Besides we already pre-funded everything with the 25% we gave from 2003 to 2008.
7. Offer a length of agreement that will allow AA to purchase and replace the MD-80 Fleet. As retired personell are replaced, the CASM will average down. The faster you hire workers the faster your average CASM will drop. Lower CASM equals higher yield.
In other words repeat all the mistakes of the past.
All in all I would say that this list sounds like a company wish list rather than a union list. In other words it sounds like a typical TWU contract.
Here is my list.
Full restoration of all pre-2003 workrules and benefits.
Restore pay to pre-2003 concession plus catch-up Cola and maintain COLA plus 1.5% annually for term of contract.
If the company wants the 401K for new hires they must provide 6% match for new hires a 4% match for those with defined pension and a 5&5 for current employees.
Eliminate all progressions. Top rate is the only rate for each classification. Hiring at top rate would allow the company to draw talent away from competitors.
Longevity pay increased by factor of 10 from pre-2003 formula.
Line Premium of 20%
Weekend Premium of 15%
Aft shift premium of 10%
Night shift Premium of 20%
I don’t think that it’s the unions place to tell the company to eliminate benefits, close bases and lower lifetime earnings for members by extending progressions. Nor do I think its our place to run the company, keep it simple , "we need this and are willing to burn the place down in order to get it". Once management realizes they cant scare the workers with threats they will negotiate. Dont ever go to the table with the attitude that the union is responsible for the management of the company.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Perhaps, but there's also the chance that by pulling out, the company has little reason not to enforce their side of the contract to the letter, which could be more detrimental to the membership than the concessions you're so angry about.
During the whole USPS fiasco, the TWU's participation in PLI/JLT was perhaps the only reason there wasn't an immediate RIF of the 400 or so FSC's who worked the domestic mail contract. Management agreed to carry those heads for the interim and find a way to get the work back, even though the mail revenue was just barely covering the cost of handling it.
That's just one example, and I'm sure there are more than a few which apply to AMT's.
Well the problem with your so called "painful reality" is thats its simplistic conclusion does not paint a detailed picture of complex forces that come in play in "reality".
Sure, if enough mechanics left the industry a shortage may drive wages back up,but those who left would not be able to reap what they have sown. But, even your simplistic conclusion is not a sure fire strategy, the government could change regulations to allow the airlines to meet their maintenance staffing requirements without raising wages. Kind of like how during the debates Bush justified the ban on buying drugs from Canada "because they may not be safe" but minutes later when asked how would he respond to a shortage of FLU vaccine he said "We'll just get some from Canada".The ban on Canadian Drugs keeps drug prices higher but a simple shift in the supply curve could change that.
The fact is that quitting is not an option for improving things for mechanics,basically you are saying we should turn our swords on ourselves. I dont believe in suicide. Despite your arrogant condescending claims there are other options.
What you are spewing is pure corporate propaganda, designed to erode the hopes and morale of your enemy-people who work for a living. The strategy is no different than that of Tokyo Rose. Tell them that "resistance is futile" so they give up and let you win. Instead of territory it money, instead of fighting to get back their fair share you want them to give up and make you a lot of money.
The fact is if unions have the power to shut down a company they have a lot more influence on wages than you care to admit.
Listen you ignorant ass. I'll spell it out for you, for those of us that don't hide behind the curtain of a union for our jobs its not that confusing. When I left AA it cost them about 1/4 of my yearly salary to hire and train my replacement. Multiply that by hundreds of level 3s and 4s, 5s, and you have a lot of money. Now you add on the fact most of those people are telling their boss when they leave that its because of money. Eventually, AA says, gee we need to pay people more. No strike, no work action, no f-ing union = increase in pay.
The fact is Bob, you're obsessed with getting revenge, you're emotionally attached. For people like me, its a business decision, nothing more, just like the company. Those that are willing to take emotion out of always have the upper hand.
Well, Mr Owens, I'm a simplistic sort who can't for the life of me see where AA is gonna get that $1.6 billion a year to restore the concessions, let alone help you get back what you've already provided. We've still got too many people flying fares that are too low for everyone to make consistent profits. Call that simplistic if you must - I call it realistic. Maybe you can see where AA gets that $1.6 billion each year. I can't. Or maybe you propose that AA borrow it, like it did in late 2001, throughout 2002 and for the first four months of 2003.
You're right, nothing is guaranteed. For a long time now, a persistent shortage of nurses has caused their wages to rise and has led to fairly generous signing bonuses for RNs. Unfortunately, airline mechanics have experienced the OPPOSITE for many, many years now. If you want to make lots of money, you either work in a field where demand is outpacing the supply of new workers or you go to work for a monopoly like the NYC MTA where your strikes actually work and where government employers always give in and increase wages. There's only one bus and subway provider, but there are several airlines.
No, I'm pragmatic enough to conclude that you've been crapped upon for nearly 25 years now and that the situation is unlikely to improve enough so that you can make it all back before you're a really old man, that's all.
You live near NYC, an area where your skills could bring you more money than you get from AA. No flight benefits, of course, and likely no DB pension payment when you turn 65, but more cash now. Still, you choose the "manly" path of remaining instead of leaving to get more money. I admire your persistence, but question the financial calculation behind that decision.
Far from committing suicide, my view is that perhaps the wrenches should try to come up with reasons why AA should pay them more money. Failing that, maybe they should focus on ways to keep their jobs (convince AA not to outsource its maintenance to the same extent as the other airlines). That is a real possibility, no? After all, you're pissed that those routine overseas checks have cost the TWU something like 4.5 jobs, right?
You think anything I write here could demoralize AA's mechanics any more than has already occurred? You give me far too much credit.
If my house were located in a flood plain and every spring I had to fill sandbags and deal with ruined carpets and drywall, at some point I'd consider moving to higher ground, and I wouldn't think of myself as a "Quitter" or a "Coward" for dealing with such a painful reality. I guess I could stay in my flood-prone house and spend the rest of my life trying to organize my neighbors in the hopes that goverment might eventually build us a huge flood wall around our crappy houses, but moving to higher ground would immediately improve my standard of living AND would get my spouse off my back. Doesn't that have some value?
I gotta believe that AA's mechanics are, by and large, sick and tired of their wives' nagging about their poor wages. If I'd endured nearly 25 years of substandard pay (as you have admitted before), my spouse would have left me for someone with better earnings potential. Strong Principles and Conviction (Good Union Man Ideals) don't put food on the table, don't educate the kids and don't enable shopping sprees at the mall.
In the short term, I agree with you completely. If you can convince your co-workers to strike AA (and assuming the President doesn't interfere), AA might pay up to keep the revenue flowing in. That is, provided AA doesn't pull a NWA on you and bring in an army of scabs to kill off your union.
But in the long term, do you really think that's gonna work? Ya think it's gonna bring you superior wages? Ya think that AA would gladly pay you lots more money and wouldn't even dream of devising outsourcing solutions to its suddenly more expensive wrenches?
Everyone loves a dreamer, Mr Owens, but unfortunately, what you're selling sounds like a dream. Good luck with that. I'd like to see you guys get more money for what you do. I just don't see where AA gets the money to restore your pre-2003 wages.
Sure they would. They'd be out making tons more money in their new jobs. Like you keep telling us, even auto mechanics make more, right? And airplane mechanics are such virtuous, talented and skilled people that have been "raped" by airline management, as we keep hearing, no doubt those that left would be making six figures in no time, paid by more enlightened employers.
Sounds like a win-win.
Sounds like a win-win.
No fair, Bear. You keep pointing out his inconsistent arguments and soon he'll be calling you names like Tokyo Rose.
upsilon
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
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What an uninformed analogy! But then consider the source. And I don’t believe the Bush quote is even true.
There are no 'Canadian drugs'. I can't think of a single major pharmaceutical drug manufacturer domiciled in Canada, nor any major U.S. or European firm with a much more than sales and distribution facilities in Canada.
The fact is that the Rx pharmaceuticals in Canada come from U.S. and European based companies and are manufactured in the mainland U.S., P.R., and European plants.
They are sold to Canadian pharmacies at prices negotiated/established by the government health care system. But some pharmacists used websites to sell these Rx drugs on-line to non-Canadians.
There is no “ban†on Canadian drugs. To cut off the over-supply to these operations, the pharmaceutical companies began using predictive sales equations based on local population to allocate the shipment to Canadian pharmacy customers (similar to airline yield management). The Canadian governments cooperated by enforcing the laws relating to the prescriptions required to dispense the drugs by pharmacists.
In any case, it is widely reported that this mail order drug trade has diminished. I have heard very little recently about 'Canadian drugs' being an answer to high medical costs.
FrugalFlyerv2.0
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- Oct 29, 2003
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upsilon
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
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Apotex is a manufacturer of generic pharmaceuticals.
Biovail is a company involved with oral controlled release drug-delivery technologies for pharmaceutical products.
Neither are major pharmaceutical manufacturers.
Well first of all due to the fact that there are around 20% less people at AA and falling the cost would not be $1.6 billion.
Simple, raise fares.
They arent there, NWA took them all.
AA has always outsourced maintenance. In fact prior to 2003 they outspent everyone else on outsourcing by far. The fact is that the loss of revenue from cheap maintenace runs up real high real quick, airlines get their best bang for the buck with line maintenance. The reality of the situtaion is that AA hasnt saved a dime on line maintenance by cutting wages and benifits of mechanics. The extra costs of underutilizing aircraft and keeping them as spares, paying more OT and the loss of a lot of trips that more than likely would have made it but didnt because the mechanics dont have their heart in the job is harder to measure and pinpoint but it definately affects the bottom line.One cancelled trip costs the company more revenue than they saved in five years with the paycuts. So if a kickoff goes out of service figure around three times that figure.
SWA finds the money despite cheap airfares.
No, I just want my stuff back.
