Executive pay issue spurs reaction

[AMFAMAN]

Of course, you ignore the history BEFORE 1995 when AA's employees got great raises every year!

Not with mechanics, I assure you.

Read and learn...

http://www.twu562.org/TWU%20Final.ppt

 

[Oneflyer]

I know this really difficult for you mechanic union types to comprehend, but you get raises and bonuses not when you negeotiate them through the union but when the job market dictates it. The economy outside of the airline industry is rolling and most AA management can leave and get better jobs elsewhere, job where the they don't have to be second guessed by every arm chair CEO mechanic or pilot.

Job in demand = management = bonus

Job not in demand = airline mechanic/ F/A, etc... = pay cut

The reason you have a sh!tty salary is not because of management its because none your loyal union brothers and sisters can/will go find other better paying jobs. When enough of them do that, then you'll get raises, guaranteed.

 

[scorpion]

Just exactly what management are you talking about? Iv'e been with AA 18 years and have yet to see a mass exodus of management. As a matter of fact you couldn't get these guys to leave voluntarily if you tried to run them off with a baseball bat. Maybe a few at the very top would have a chance to go somewhere else but the vast majority wouldn't leave if you cut their pay by 10% and removed the bonuses.
Get real!

 

[eolesen]

Just exactly what management are you talking about? Iv'e been with AA 18 years and have yet to see a mass exodus of management.

Then you need to get out more... Average turnover (resignations, not terminations, layoffs or buyouts) for management averaged less than 4% before 2001. It's noticably higher than that since then, and still rising. For VP's and managing directors, it's said to be double the historical rate.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Then you need to get out more... Average turnover (resignations, not terminations, layoffs or buyouts) for management averaged less than 4% before 2001. It's noticably higher than that since then, and still rising. For VP's and managing directors, it's said to be double the historical rate.

In MIA I have seen at least 8 managers and supervisors go.
But they were all terminated.

It's noticably higher than that since then, and still rising.

Noticably higher..
5%
Probably more by termination. The supply and demand thing I doubt it.
Running an airline into the ground and then getting a job some where else to do the same piss poor job. Sounds a little thin to me

 

[Oneflyer]

Just exactly what management are you talking about? Iv'e been with AA 18 years and have yet to see a mass exodus of management. As a matter of fact you couldn't get these guys to leave voluntarily if you tried to run them off with a baseball bat. Maybe a few at the very top would have a chance to go somewhere else but the vast majority wouldn't leave if you cut their pay by 10% and removed the bonuses.
Get real!

Well, I'm one of those management types that left for a higher salary elsewhere. At my new company, I know of several level 3-4 types that are here now and at least two managing directors, I'd say that is a lot for just one company.

Turnover was a real problem at HDQ, in the last year almost the entire Corporate Real Estate group turnedover and when I interviewed with the purchasing group both managers said that they had serious turnover problems.

 

[eolesen]

Probably more by termination. The supply and demand thing I doubt it.

Well, you're wrong... My wife used to work in HR before she resigned, but still has some useful contacts there....


For 2005, resignations in management levels 1 thru 9 (VP) outpaced terminations by 3 to 1, and for 2004 it was about 2 to 1. Termination for cause (either poor job performance or violation of regs) are said to average less than 40 per year.

Year	Resign   Retire   Fire/RIF
----	------   ------   ------
2005	487		290	 155
2004	382		291	 193
2003	373		482	 387
2002	530		304	 313
2001	214		143	 754
2000	394		 94	  34

There are only two years in recent history where RIFs and terminations outpaced resignations: 2001 and 2003, and AA had signigicant management layoffs in both years.

If you look at HDQ only, the trends for both layoffs and resignations are a little more obvious:

Year   Resign   Retire   Fire/RIF
----   ------   ------   ------
2005   226		 44	  23
2004   190		 28	  14
2003	87		 55	 266
2002	89		189	  85
2001   186		170	 128
2000   150		 81	  66

Numbers like that should be a concern for everyone, especially if you factor in the fact that management has shrunk considerably from 2000 to 2005 (somewhere around 25-30%?).

 

[Oneflyer]

If you look at HDQ only, the trends for both layoffs and resignations are a little more obvious:

Any idea how many management 1-9 actually work at HDQ, 2-5 thousand??

 

[AMFAMAN]

Numbers like that should be a concern for everyone, especially if you factor in the fact that management has shrunk considerably from 2000 to 2005 (somewhere around 25-30%?).

Well considering you're still way overmanned with management, with about another 5 years of reductions like that and no hiring, things should start looking up.

 

[Bagbelt]

A lot of us signed on at $7-8 an hour just to get in. I know, no one made me take the job, but most people outside the industry have no idea how many years of song and dance you have to go through to reach A scale. Then you get there and its cut by a third. Sometimes people will post on how to get a job here, you've got to be out of your mind. What is it about aa that makes them shoot themselves in the foot with this crap?

 

[eolesen]

Any idea how many management 1-9 actually work at HDQ, 2-5 thousand??

Guessing, it's roughly 3000 in CP5 and CP4. There are approx 80 employees per wing, 4 wings per floor, 10 floors between the two buildings, minus a couple hundred clerical and support staff. Guessing by the number of empty cubes which used to be occupied, I'd say that number was probably well over 4000 in early 2003, because we still occupied CP2 and CPOC, and both of those buildings were vacated as space opened up in CP4 (CP4 used to be 75% EDS and Sabre up until 2001, and they were still in the process of moving out of those buildings during 2003).

A lot of us signed on at $7-8 an hour just to get in. I know, no one made me take the job, but most people outside the industry have no idea how many years of song and dance you have to go through to reach A scale. Then you get there and its cut by a third. Sometimes people will post on how to get a job here, you've got to be out of your mind.

Complain all you want about how things used to be, but it's still a decent job, and beats flipping burgers or wearing a Walmart smock to pay the rent.

With the exception of pilots and mechanics, there are very few jobs an airline which I think should be viewed as career positions. If you want to stay there for 10 or 30 years, fine. Have at it. If you want more money, move into management. AA winds up hiring people off the street simply because people inside the company aren't willing to take on the added responsibility. What's ironic is that the same people who don't want the responsibility are the first ones to start criticizing how ineffective management is.

 

[Bagbelt]

Actually, I've seen a lot of improvement, especially in fuel management. I'm a mechanic, however I started as a cleaner and then fsc. I've seen a lot, and I can tell you that when the ramp was a well paying career you could run this place with half the guys you have now. Ask any line supervisor with any time here. I want to see aa do well, but as long as they go with the lowest bidder its going to get worse.

 

[nbmcg01]

A tad disrespectful toward towards some work groups and other jobs..lol As for people not wanting to accept more responsibility, yeah right. Why go into airline mangt. where you are under very tight guidelines that absolutely sap all creativity and free thinking. Airline's mangt. philosophy is "we've ALWAYS done it that way". There will always be "focus groups" and meeting after meeting but that is just job security. Senior mangt. is only told what middle mangt. wants them to hear (to protect their jobs). People who have too many ideas do not last very long. Or as some would say, "those that can't "do", manage". Seriously, there are some VERY GOOD managers. They are the one who are seen talking to themselves, shaking their heads, and always looking frustrated. And then the leave or go "back on the line".

A "career" is what one makes it...I would hate to go back to the days when you are only allowed to work for a certain amt of time. Experience can and is a very valuable commodity. Unfortunately, it is now looked at as an economic liability instead of a valuable asset. In the respect of most union jobs, salary caps out at a specific year of experience. Longevity deserves more compensation. And as far as "bonus stock incentives', if you're talking about 44,000 (like Dan Garten) vs the 298 that f/as received, I think you'd see some "mighty fine" customer service. I don't think you would see negative ad campaigns that announce a penalty for using "live" reservation options instead of the on-line feature. That ad could have been so positive (while obtaining the same results). PR VP should have been fired or taken out of the "leadership position...instead he gets 44,000 share of stock. Good old boys at their "best".

Don't you just love this industry!

Guessing, it's roughly 3000 in CP5 and CP4. There are approx 80 employees per wing, 4 wings per floor, 10 floors between the two buildings, minus a couple hundred clerical and support staff. Guessing by the number of empty cubes which used to be occupied, I'd say that number was probably well over 4000 in early 2003, because we still occupied CP2 and CPOC, and both of those buildings were vacated as space opened up in CP4 (CP4 used to be 75% EDS and Sabre up until 2001, and they were still in the process of moving out of those buildings during 2003).
Complain all you want about how things used to be, but it's still a decent job, and beats flipping burgers or wearing a Walmart smock to pay the rent.

With the exception of pilots and mechanics, there are very few jobs an airline which I think should be viewed as career positions. If you want to stay there for 10 or 30 years, fine. Have at it. If you want more money, move into management. AA winds up hiring people off the street simply because people inside the company aren't willing to take on the added responsibility. What's ironic is that the same people who don't want the responsibility are the first ones to start criticizing how ineffective management is.

 

[Bob Owens]

I know this really difficult for you mechanic union types to comprehend, but you get raises and bonuses not when you negeotiate them through the union but when the job market dictates it. The economy outside of the airline industry is rolling and most AA management can leave and get better jobs elsewhere, job where the they don't have to be second guessed by every arm chair CEO mechanic or pilot.

Job in demand = management = bonus

Job not in demand = airline mechanic/ F/A, etc... = pay cut

The reason you have a sh!tty salary is not because of management its because none your loyal union brothers and sisters can/will go find other better paying jobs. When enough of them do that, then you'll get raises, guaranteed.

Sure maybe back in Econ101 thats true but in the real world its just not so. Everything is not always as simple as supply and demand, and the government and the public will not tolerate the disruptions that result as "the market" swings back and forth to seek the ever changing equilibrium between the two.

Upper management gets paid so well because upper management sets the rates. Its as simple as that. Those setting the rates have an interest in inflating the rates. There is no shortage of MBAs in this country. There are probably more MBAs than A&Ps. With thousands of MBAs working at Dennys you cant say there is a shortage of MBAS but rather a shortage of jobs for MBAs. Despite that compensation for excecutives over the last twenty years has soared. My guess is you would find more MBAS working minimum wage jobs than A&PS

What would happen if too many A&Ps left the industry? The airlines would go to the government and have them do away with the need for A&Ps. They would claim that "these are jobs Americans wont do" and unless standards are changed the air transport industry will collapse.

The fact is that because of the 24x7x365 nature of the job moving in and out of the industry as individuals is not a good option, uniting and acting as one, as upper management has pretty much done without forming official "unions" and maintaining standards of compensation is a better strategy.

 

[scorpion]

Then you need to get out more... Average turnover (resignations, not terminations, layoffs or buyouts) for management averaged less than 4% before 2001. It's noticably higher than that since then, and still rising. For VP's and managing directors, it's said to be double the historical rate.

Until we start doing maintenance at headquarters then I guess my world will be this lowly overhaul base from where Ive seen few face changes in management. Yes there have been changes but its mainly morons that know somebody in a VP position that bring them in. Most of the time they screw things up so bad with their bright ideas that they bail before shat gets to deep. Its always the same story that they found something better. (BS). Other than that its the same old faces. As for going into management here I'm not into non productive commities, politics and sucking up.
Management ranks have been cut but so have every other work group. What would be interesting is to see the ratio of management now verses before all the layoffs, in comparison to the rest of the workforce.

Also compare our ratio to the rest of the industry.