Tulsa Manager Bonuses?

[Oneflyer]

No, I just want my stuff back.

Then go work someplace else, if you can't or won't, then you aren't worth more than you are making. I'm sure everyone at WN will love your socialist leanings.

 

[Bob Owens]

Then go work someplace else, if you can't or won't, then you aren't worth more than you are making. I'm sure everyone at WN will love your socialist leanings.

It always comes back to that when you have no other response doesnt it? But if we act on that remark and strike the company runs to the judge.

 

[AMFAMAN]

That is, provided AA doesn't pull a NWA on you and bring in an army of scabs to kill off your union.

Now do you really think that Team twu can handle all of the maintenance, most haven't turned a wrench in 10 years.

 

[FWAAA]

Well first of all due to the fact that there are around 20% less people at AA and falling the cost would not be $1.6 billion.

Perhaps, but you have repeatedly posted that your group gave much more than the $620 million demanded of it (as do the pilots and FAs), so I'm sticking to that figure. You'd be willing to take less? Further, the annual financial statements show that total wages and benefits paid in 2004 declined by almost exactly $1.8 billion from their 2002 levels (just as everyone expected). 2003's were down but, of course, not by that amount due to the 5/01/03 effective date of the concessions.

I know that you like to argue that you gave twice as much as the company demanded, but the financial statements tend to show that AA's union wages declined by the demanded $1.6 billion each year and management and nonunion agent wages declining by the $180 million demanded of them.

Simple, raise fares.

W O W. And you accuse me of giving simplistic answers.

Fact is, AA has raised fares. They went up in 2004 over 2003. And they were up in 2005. And up further still in 2006. Problem is, other airlines actually compete for the passengers and keep AA from raising them high enough. How do you propose to change that?

I have repeatedly posted my thoughts: it's too bad that US and UAL were kept alive in bankruptcy. Those two having survived, it's too bad that DL and NW have been kept alive. If a couple of those four had died, it would have been much easier for AA to raise fares sufficiently to cover the higher fuel bills in 2003-06.

I'd like to see fares raised sufficently. I've got enough money to pay them. Problem is convincing the other 120 million annual passengers who fly AA/AE to pay higher fares.

They arent there, NWA took them all.

Interesting point I had not thought of. You're supposing there may not be enough willing SCAB A&Ps out there in case AA tried to outsource all its line maintenance? Maybe NWA has cornered the market on filthy scabs? That might work in your favor if true.

AA has always outsourced maintenance. In fact prior to 2003 they outspent everyone else on outsourcing by far. The fact is that the loss of revenue from cheap maintenace runs up real high real quick, airlines get their best bang for the buck with line maintenance. The reality of the situtaion is that AA hasnt saved a dime on line maintenance by cutting wages and benifits of mechanics. The extra costs of underutilizing aircraft and keeping them as spares, paying more OT and the loss of a lot of trips that more than likely would have made it but didnt because the mechanics dont have their heart in the job is harder to measure and pinpoint but it definately affects the bottom line.One cancelled trip costs the company more revenue than they saved in five years with the paycuts. So if a kickoff goes out of service figure around three times that figure.

I realize that AA has always outsourced some maintenance. You really don't need to keep "educating" me on that one. I understand that AA is guilty of outsourcing.

I'm talking about AA outsourcing all (or nearly all) of its maintenance. You know, replacing all the line mechanics and closing TULE, MCIE and AFW and shipping the overhaul to Singapore, China, El Salvador or elsewhere.

That may not worry you, but it scares those guys in Tulsa TO DEATH. What the hell else would thousands of wrenches do to earn what they make at AA? Think they could all go to work in Oklahoma car dealerships? Some of them, sure. All of them?

About WN: Its pay is very generous. As I posted the other day in the Pension thread I started, WN's labor costs consume a much larger percentage of its revenue (than AA's labor costs). Once WN's fuel bill rises closer to market price, that's gonna put a world of hurt on its financials and I would not be surprised if it has to tell its employees that "there just ain't any money for raises this year." Won't be pretty if/when that happens.

 

[eolesen]

The only reason AMR outspent anyone in outsourcing is because AMR's fleet up was around 20% larger than the next largest airline.

Rework that comparison on a per aircraft basis, and I'm willing to bet AMR drops pretty far down the list.

 

[Bob Owens]

The only reason AMR outspent anyone in outsourcing is because AMR's fleet up was around 20% larger than the next largest airline.

Rework that comparison on a per aircraft basis, and I'm willing to bet AMR drops pretty far down the list.

From the figures I saw from around 2000 AMR spent more on outsourced maintenance than several other carriers combined. So even accounting for Fleet size AMR spent more, and thats not counting the fact that much of the work was outsourced from mechanics to other TWU members, working under a different contract within the company.

The fact is prior to 2003 AMR was a leader in outsourcing.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

The fact is Bob, you're obsessed with getting revenge, you're emotionally attached. For people like me, its a business decision, nothing more, just like the company. Those that are willing to take emotion out of always have the upper hand.

I could say I'm emotionally attached to the stuff they took from us.

But, more accurately, removing emotion from the equation, I'm suffering financially from the pay and benefits they took from us.

There is no reason to personalize or emotionalize the issue. As you said, it is all business.

 

[eolesen]

From the figures I saw from around 2000 AMR spent more on outsourced maintenance than several other carriers combined. So even accounting for Fleet size AMR spent more, and thats not counting the fact that much of the work was outsourced from mechanics to other TWU members, working under a different contract within the company.

The fact is prior to 2003 AMR was a leader in outsourcing.

Prove it, Bob.

I find it hard to believe AMR spent more on outsourcing than either SWA or CAL on a per aircraft basis, especially since almost all of their overhaul is done by outside companies, and that's a lot more expensive than component work.

If you want to argue that other employees in the company got work that you think should have been done by TWU employees, go fo it, but it's not outsourcing by any definition I've ever seen in your contract or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[Bob Owens]

Prove it, Bob.

I find it hard to believe AMR spent more on outsourcing than either SWA or CAL on a per aircraft basis, especially since almost all of their overhaul is done by outside companies, and that's a lot more expensive than component work.

Prove me wrong because I really dont feel like looking it up.

If you want to argue that other employees in the company got work that you think should have been done by TWU employees, go fo it, but it's not outsourcing by any definition I've ever seen in your contract or anywhere else for that matter.

Well actually its more like other TWU members got mechanics work so you wouldnt expect to find it in the AA written TWU contract. But as far as mechanics are concerned lost work is no different than outsourced work.

 

[Hopeful]

Prove me wrong because I really dont feel like looking it up.
Well actually its more like other TWU members got mechanics work so you wouldnt expect to find it in the AA written TWU contract. But as far as mechanics are concerned lost work is no different than outsourced work.

AA mechanics have continually lost work to other TWU members since the 1983 contract. It started with push backs and deicing going to line cargo and deicing, and then later on many specialized shops to the SRP which later became the OSM.
One may argue that the company wants the mechanic to do ONLY mechanics' work.
Fine!

Then why is it, at JFK for instance, they been paying a crew chief and a mechanic full pay and out of the headcount to publish the JFK FACTS EXCHANGE, the local newsletter?
Why have they paid for about a year and a half, mechanics and other employees FULL pay to participate in the PLI?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

why is it, at JFK for instance, they been paying a crew chief and a mechanic full pay and out of the headcount to publish the JFK FACTS EXCHANGE, the local newsletter?
Why have they paid for about a year and a half, mechanics and other employees FULL pay to participate in the PLI?

Good spin is priceless. AA will never get better or cheaper spin than from tame in-house sources.

Professional spinmeisters are very expensive.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

oops