Honeymoon's over?

[Mach85ER]

"...they've been reimbursed several times over..." Really? You can prove this. You can tell us what AMR stock would have been had 9/11 and the resulting downturn had not happened? That's pretty amazing. Given this ability it's amazing you're working at the airline at all. It would seem your investment knowledge should have paid off by now to the tune of millions. Or, maybe you're just overly bitter that you failed to put 2 & 2 together when mgmt took paycuts and would have an opportunity to recoup a portion of theirconcessions through their stock programs, much like you could.

Let's get something straight. It's doubtful by any means that AA would have had the stock move +$30.00 a share like it has from it's 2003 low. Jetblue is a more accurate comparison.

My other problem with Management's "saving the airline" and gaining income through stock appreciation is that if they had done their job securing the cockpits pre 9/11, the attacks would have had a much tougher time succeeding.
But no, tougher doors would have cost money.

 

[eolesen]

Attacks or no attacks, airlines were in trouble at the beginning of 2001 due to the DotCom bust and would have been in just as much trouble with SARS. USAirways and United would still have filed for bankruptcy, and it's likely NWA and DAL would have as well.

9/11 simply accelerated what was already a shrinking revenue environment.

 

[flyhigh]

eolson,

I don't think it's accurate to assume DL & NW would have had to file. Their biggest problem on 9/10 was too much cash. On 9/11 & 9/12 the each were able to leverage $3b immediately. Their losses without 9/11 would not nearly have been as severe likely not requiring the leveraging the executed which hurt them more than helped.

As for what mgmt gave up...at the highest levels, while it's likely they wouldn't have seen that much in stock appreciation, Arpey wouldn't have given up as much of his actual paycheck as he did either (he wasn't paid for the last quarter of the year in 2001...time value of money). That's just one example. You can't say with much certainty that they are whole now.

As for cockpit doors, well, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Hopeful]

Attacks or no attacks, airlines were in trouble at the beginning of 2001 due to the DotCom bust and would have been in just as much trouble with SARS. USAirways and United would still have filed for bankruptcy, and it's likely NWA and DAL would have as well.

9/11 simply accelerated what was already a shrinking revenue environment.

Funny! Shrinking revenue environment and the executives are still reaping the rewards in terms of bonus pay and stocks

 

[flyhigh]

Hopeful,

Maybe this example will help. How many crashes have we heard about where there was what could have been a tragedy except the captain did something exceptional? It would be just as easy to point out that they likely missed something during preflight, but there's no gold star in that.

Well, we all know recessions happen. Executives are paid to steer the ship. Sometimes you're in rougher waters. Legacy carriers can't become Southwest or JetBlue overnight. Nor would you want that. Mechanics and agents likely wouldn't mind as much, but pilots and flight attendants would lose the big planes and the routes & pay that comes with them. So, the system you work in inherrently succombs to the conditions of the economy. When it's down, a high cost, generally inefficient system will lose money. Management's job is to stem that tide as much as possible. Sometimes that means job cuts, other times it's pay cuts or benefit changes. It's not a simple system, and it's far from perfect...but it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. In American's case, by keeping the company out of bankruptcy, most creditors are better off. They may have agreed to concessions (which they wouldn't agree to without you doing the same) but they didn't have to involve extemely costly attorneys like many of them did to deal with UA, US, DL & NW. As a result, they benefited. By accomplishing that, they managed the business as prudently as conditions allowed.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,

Maybe this example will help. How many crashes have we heard about where there was what could have been a tragedy except the captain did something exceptional? It would be just as easy to point out that they likely missed something during preflight, but there's no gold star in that.

Well, we all know recessions happen. Executives are paid to steer the ship. Sometimes you're in rougher waters. Legacy carriers can't become Southwest or JetBlue overnight. Nor would you want that. Mechanics and agents likely wouldn't mind as much, but pilots and flight attendants would lose the big planes and the routes & pay that comes with them. So, the system you work in inherrently succombs to the conditions of the economy. When it's down, a high cost, generally inefficient system will lose money. Management's job is to stem that tide as much as possible. Sometimes that means job cuts, other times it's pay cuts or benefit changes. It's not a simple system, and it's far from perfect...but it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. In American's case, by keeping the company out of bankruptcy, most creditors are better off. They may have agreed to concessions (which they wouldn't agree to without you doing the same) but they didn't have to involve extemely costly attorneys like many of them did to deal with UA, US, DL & NW. As a result, they benefited. By accomplishing that, they managed the business as prudently as conditions allowed.

Once again, let me explain something to the executive bonus sympathizers. Prior to concessions, did you ever hear anyone complain about executive compensation like you do now? The fact of the matter is that AA was able to avoid bankruptcy thanks to CONCESSIONS.. Nothing more nothing less. Last year the top managers shared $90 million in bonus payouts. this year, it will be around $200 million.

Speaking as a mechanic, I lost $20,000 a year. So before you remind me that the company gave me 446 shares of AA stock in return for the $120,000 I lost over 6 years, the stock price has to hit $300 a share for me to break even.
So please spare me that executives get paid to steer the ship. They have been steering the ship in both the wrong and right directions but they ALWAYS seem to get rewarded monetarily REGARDLESS.

 

[Mach85ER]

As for cockpit doors, well, hindsight is 20/20.

Not really.

In a couple of years before 9/11, there had been something like 30+ cockpit intrusions, several nearly losing an aircraft (BA 747 in Africa)

The janitor's closets in CP were more secure than AA's cockpits.