TWU's Silence is deafening!

[SkydrolJunkie]

The TWU can go a screw themselves. If my union doesn’t have the balls to stand up and say no, they are worthless. All the TWU did by trying to get this deal was saying it was ok for a select few to get bounces.

The lack of fighting by my union and having other unions doing their fighting for them has made my mind up for the 18th . I will not be supporting any picket line or any protest. I will be at work moving A/C to the best of my ability.

TWU...Totally Worthless Union

 

[eolesen]

Bears, I think you're forgetting your history a bit. AA was already the second largest carrier at DFW by 1979, which is when HDQ moved south. I'm fairly certain AA employed more people in Texas and Oklahoma at the time than they did in NYC. Plus, it doesn't really matter where the HDQ is -- the largest locals are still going to have more power.

They moved HDQ for the tax breaks, along with a hundred or so other corporations who were ultimately chased out of Manhattan due to Ed Koch's mismanagement of NYC in the late 70's.

Geographically, DFW was a smart place to hub. Reasonably good weather, and there was a decent local market handed to them as Braniff imploded from their own mismanagement. (can't wait to see all the Pumpkins start claiming AA killed them off...)

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Say what you will about Braniff, at least they flew the Concorde.

 

[IORFA]

Using your logic, so did Pepsi.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Using your logic, so did Pepsi.

"Using my logic"???

Braniff flew the Concorde, or didn't you know that?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

They moved HDQ for the tax breaks......

And, a more favorable political climate vis-à-vis unions. And judges who can be bought off at the country club with free miles on AA.

 

[IORFA]

Yes, I knew that it had a Braniff paint job for awhile as it did a Pepsi paint job. I was under the impression that BA still staffed the A/C, pilots and f/a's. If that is truely the case, then Braniff never "flew" the Concorde. That is like saying Budget car rental flies around Europe and Pokeman is flying jets in Japan. If they actually "flew" the Concorde with their own personnel, then I apologize for my mistake.

 

[eolesen]

Wrench, what does the state political environment have to do with things? Labor/management relations are driven by where the largest locals are, not the corporate offices.

Concorde never actually flew in BN colors. All the photos that persist to this day were retouched for PR purposes.

To this day, BN is the only other airline aside from AF and BA who was certified to fly it, albeit subsonic from DFW to IAD.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Wrench, what does the state political environment have to do with things? Labor/management relations are driven by where the largest locals are, not the corporate offices.

Concorde never actually flew in BN colors. All the photos that persist to this day were retouched for PR purposes.

To this day, BN is the only other airline aside from AF and BA who was certified to fly it, albeit subsonic from DFW to IAD.

.0


..........................................................

eolesen,

When AA moved to TX/OK, they were VERY aware of the CULTURAL differences of the majority of its union workers.

BOTTOM LINE,

If the useless TWU was still in NY, AND the majority of its members were still in that BOS/DCA/ORD "triangle", it would'nt be anywhere near as passive as they are now.

YOU know it, and I know it !!!!!

In some ways, it was a form of outsourcing, without leaving the USA.

NH/BB's

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Yes, I knew that it had a Braniff paint job for awhile as it did a Pepsi paint job. I was under the impression that BA still staffed the A/C, pilots and f/a's. If that is truely the case, then Braniff never "flew" the Concorde. That is like saying Budget car rental flies around Europe and Pokeman is flying jets in Japan. If they actually "flew" the Concorde with their own personnel, then I apologize for my mistake.

Braniff did indeed fly the concorde.

The DFW-Washington/Dulles leg was indeed flown by Braniff crews.

Additionally, 2 Concordes one each from BA and AF were leased by Braniff and registered in the US with "N" tail numbers.

Apology accepted.

 

[eolesen]

When AA moved to TX/OK, they were VERY aware of the CULTURAL differences of the majority of its union workers.

Right. That's why AA did it...

It had nothing at all to do with:

• Lower corporate taxes
• Lower facility costs (rent, utilities)
• The impact mass transit had on productivity for salaried and support staff
• Entry salaries for administrative personnel

You seem to forget that AA always had a very large presence in the DFW area, between the operation at DAL prior to 1971 and the move to DFW.

If the useless TWU was still in NY, AND the majority of its members were still in that BOS/DCA/ORD "triangle", it would'nt be anywhere near as passive as they are now.

YOU know it, and I know it !!!!!

Gary, I think your argument is full of crap and based on an outdated fantasy airline like Eastern who barely flew west of the Mississippi.

Here's some facts off the 5/1 schedule:

• There are currently 2300 or so mainline flights per day
• Only 344 (15%) of them originate in NY, PA, NJ, MA, CT, RI, MD, and VA.
• 330 originate in ORD and STL combined

If DFW didn't exist, AA'd be down to only 1341 departures per day, with 267 (20%) departing from the "union powerhouse" states. 283 would originate in Florida plus ATL, and 304 in ORD and STL.

That's a far cry from having a majority, Bears.


I have a 1979 OAG tape, and here's how "big" the Northeast was prior to the HDQ move and deregulation:

There were around 783 flights/day back then... 165 of them did depart from the Northeast corridor cities. A whopping 21% of the system departures. Combined, non-hubs DFW and ORD had 209 departures.

Just for fun, here's the top 20 cities for 1979 in terms of departures:

ORD 121
DFW 88
LGA 61
LAX 37
PHX 26
DTW 25
JFK 25
DCA 25
CVG 23
BOS 21
STL 20
SFO 20
BNA 20
CLE 16
SAN 14
OKC 13
MEM 13
BUF 12
EWR 12
TUS 12

Those are facts, Bears. The majority of the union members haven't been in the Northeast for quite some time, so drop your delusions of grandeur already...

 

[TWU informer]

Gary, I think your argument is full of crap and based on an outdated fantasy airline like Eastern who barely flew west of the Mississippi.

Here's some facts off the 5/1 schedule:

• There are currently 2300 or so mainline flights per day
• Only 344 (15%) of them originate in NY, PA, NJ, MA, CT, RI, MD, and VA.
• 330 originate in ORD and STL combined

If DFW didn't exist, AA'd be down to only 1341 departures per day, with 267 (20%) departing from the "union powerhouse" states. 283 would originate in Florida plus ATL, and 304 in ORD and STL.

That's a far cry from having a majority, Bears.

Exactly where does a guy that is no longer employed by AA get access to that data?

 

[eolesen]

Exactly where does a guy that is no longer employed by AA get access to that data?

There are a number of sources for schedule data, Dave, some of them free. Mine is OAG, but there are a lot of other commercially available sources.

 

[Bear96]

[*]The impact mass transit had on productivity for salaried and support staff

At the risk of going off-topic . . . what does this mean?

Are you saying an employer considers it a negative to be in an area with a large and efficient mass transit system?

What is the negative "impact on productivity" such a system has, compared with an area where everyone has to drive (and thus can get stuck in traffic jams) and has no other choices?

 

[eolesen]

The negative impact was largely a reflection of how unreliable the NYC subway system had become in the 1970's. NYC was going broke, and one area that they cut back on was keeping subway cars, trackage, and signalling systems properly maintained. They did the bare minimum, which meant that on any given day, they'd have almost 200 cars out of service just due to breakdowns.

Lost time was higher, allegedly due to the number of people taking subways and trains therefore being exposed to people coughing and hacking in close proximity. If that's a valid excuse for flight attendants having such high lost time during the winter months, then it's gotta be a risk on subways and trains as well.

RL's were also higher for HDQ people back then, mainly because trains frequently ran late, and people would still leave work at their normal time. Being forced to drive meant that individual employees controlled when they left for work, and when they left for home, so they'd be more likely to adjust their travel patterns to be at work ontime. With mass transit, there's a lot less flexibility when you have to conform with a train schedule.

Other reasons... 1) NY state law at the time considered 35 hours as a fulltime workweek in NY at the time, vs. 40 for TX and many other states. 2) the cost of living decrease amounted to a 20% wage increase for most lower level employees, not to mention the savings from no longer paying city or state income taxes. 3) the reduction in rent from 633 Third to GSW came out to around $200M over 40 years, unadjusted for CPI. $5M per year might not seem like a lot now, but in 1978, it was a pretty big deal...

A number of other major corporations also left NYC during the same timeframe at AA -- Eastern (for MIA), GM (for DTW), Shell (for MSY), GE, ARCO, US Steel (PIT?), Coke (ATL), Pepsi (HPN), Kraft Foods, Nabisco, K-Mart (also for DTW), and Greyhound.