a320driver....you are so right...all this 'chicken little'.....everyone still keeps missing a huge point...DAVE doesn't have to have the blessing of the union to present his plan....what hes now doing is blaming the unions and putting pressure on the membership through FUD.....if he had any brains,i think he would present his plan to us and if it is a viable option...then let us go to our respective groups and demand to deal.but no,we are treated like a bunch of 3 year olds..i say lets hear what he has to offer and then WE can make an informed decision and go to our respective groups.
Today's News - There Is Even More
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
Something that Light Years said really hit home. And that was that there will always be people who want to be flight attendants and pilots. The same also applies to a lesser degree to many other airline jobs as well. And it's true that these people want the jobs so bad that they will settle for crap pay and work rules. I think these people are as much a problem as are the people who are "trying" to run this company. When I was younger I remember going to the airport just to watch the planes and I would hang around the gate area to talk to the crews when they came out of the jetways. I really looked up to these people and admired them and thought they were special. (I still do think you are all special).
When I was finally old enough there was an ad for f/as in the paper. It was for a regional airline based in Atlanta. I applied and was hired. Well...imagine my suprise when I discovered that it REALLY was a job and not some "really cool I get to fly around every day thing". And at a commuter/regional to say that you get to fly everyday isn't an overstatement. But I also didn't get the true airline experience by flying around on a Brasilia or a Dash 7. The layovers were normally just over eight hours and we had some blocks that had up to 9 legs a day. I soon realized that if the Brasilia didn't kill me then it would be exhaustion that would get me. And I did all this for around 15.00 an hour. It took a while but I got tired of eating Ramen noodles at home and having peanuts and tomato juice for meals while working.
I'm afraid that this industry is evolving into something that is akin to the fast food type of work place. The company really doesn't want you to have a career just a job and then move on after a few years to be replaced by someone else at starting wage. Somewhere in the sand is the line that you finally reach where you have to say enough is enough. You have to have enough pride in yourself to realize that you are worth more.
No one wants to lose their job but at the same time whats the point of working somewhere if you don't earn enough to live a decent life or are even able to pay your bills. And I think this is where the problem is.
For those people on the board who say no more concessions and no more giving up anything, I respect you. I think it's a start. If everyone keeps giving things up then this industry won't even be worth working in.
Sorry this was so long and good luck to everyone.
When I was finally old enough there was an ad for f/as in the paper. It was for a regional airline based in Atlanta. I applied and was hired. Well...imagine my suprise when I discovered that it REALLY was a job and not some "really cool I get to fly around every day thing". And at a commuter/regional to say that you get to fly everyday isn't an overstatement. But I also didn't get the true airline experience by flying around on a Brasilia or a Dash 7. The layovers were normally just over eight hours and we had some blocks that had up to 9 legs a day. I soon realized that if the Brasilia didn't kill me then it would be exhaustion that would get me. And I did all this for around 15.00 an hour. It took a while but I got tired of eating Ramen noodles at home and having peanuts and tomato juice for meals while working.
I'm afraid that this industry is evolving into something that is akin to the fast food type of work place. The company really doesn't want you to have a career just a job and then move on after a few years to be replaced by someone else at starting wage. Somewhere in the sand is the line that you finally reach where you have to say enough is enough. You have to have enough pride in yourself to realize that you are worth more.
No one wants to lose their job but at the same time whats the point of working somewhere if you don't earn enough to live a decent life or are even able to pay your bills. And I think this is where the problem is.
For those people on the board who say no more concessions and no more giving up anything, I respect you. I think it's a start. If everyone keeps giving things up then this industry won't even be worth working in.
Sorry this was so long and good luck to everyone.
PITbull,
You, with several others, apparently missed the message in my PARODY.
(Dell Dude got it) Let me put it in simpler terms by citing a few, real life situations.
An acquaintance of mine has a son who is an F/O for a express operator. Approximately 6 months ago, a former EMERY Airfreight captain was hired by this company. This former captain has over 20,000 hours of experience. He has flown numerous type aircraft all over the world. Yet, the only job he could obtain was as a junior F/O with a commuter. If US Airways is no longer a viable concern, how many of our flight crewmembers will have a similiar fate? How many will actually find jobs?
As I stated in a previous thread, I did a fair amount of flying over the holidays. On one trip, I became engaged in a conversation with two, very senior F/A's. One told me that she had been flying since the age of 20. It was her dream job. Her expectations were to fly for a few years, get married, quit, and raise a family. She did get married and she did have a child. Unfortunately, her husband left her within a year of the baby being born. So, 33 years later she is still flying. Her sincere belief is because of her age and limited job experience that she has a very narrow range of job opportunities should US Airways cease to operate. The other F/A stated that her husband had recently lost a well paying job in the I/T field. Though it was a severe blow, they had never lived extravagently. She stated that even with the W-2 reductions, the money she made would allow them to meet their monthly financial commitments. Her biggest concern was the loss of insurance should US Airways fold. Her neighbor, a dentist, pays over $1000 a month for health insurance for a family of four.
I could go on regarding IAM and CWA. Hopefully, you and others get the picture.
As bad as it is now for employees, it will get much worse without jobs.
You have written in numerous posts about the stress and anxiety faced by your associates. Others have written about people committing suicide due to the loss of their job. Do you think this will get any better if an additional 20,000 people are forced out of work? Are the Union Leaders, such as Bill Pollock and Perry Hayes, willing to put their membership at risk, both financially and emotionally, to prove a point to DAVEX2.
Will loss of jobs occur with changes in work rules and productivity? Yes. How many, I don't know. However, if this means short term pain for long term gain, would this not be a prudent course to pursue?
Thanks for the offer to send me an application for Denny's. Really not required.
I am dusting off my BS and MBA diplomas should they be needed. Hate to think I may have to go get a "real job" after all these years. What I do now never seemed to be a job because it was so much fun.
Lindy
You, with several others, apparently missed the message in my PARODY.
(Dell Dude got it) Let me put it in simpler terms by citing a few, real life situations.
An acquaintance of mine has a son who is an F/O for a express operator. Approximately 6 months ago, a former EMERY Airfreight captain was hired by this company. This former captain has over 20,000 hours of experience. He has flown numerous type aircraft all over the world. Yet, the only job he could obtain was as a junior F/O with a commuter. If US Airways is no longer a viable concern, how many of our flight crewmembers will have a similiar fate? How many will actually find jobs?
As I stated in a previous thread, I did a fair amount of flying over the holidays. On one trip, I became engaged in a conversation with two, very senior F/A's. One told me that she had been flying since the age of 20. It was her dream job. Her expectations were to fly for a few years, get married, quit, and raise a family. She did get married and she did have a child. Unfortunately, her husband left her within a year of the baby being born. So, 33 years later she is still flying. Her sincere belief is because of her age and limited job experience that she has a very narrow range of job opportunities should US Airways cease to operate. The other F/A stated that her husband had recently lost a well paying job in the I/T field. Though it was a severe blow, they had never lived extravagently. She stated that even with the W-2 reductions, the money she made would allow them to meet their monthly financial commitments. Her biggest concern was the loss of insurance should US Airways fold. Her neighbor, a dentist, pays over $1000 a month for health insurance for a family of four.
I could go on regarding IAM and CWA. Hopefully, you and others get the picture.
As bad as it is now for employees, it will get much worse without jobs.
You have written in numerous posts about the stress and anxiety faced by your associates. Others have written about people committing suicide due to the loss of their job. Do you think this will get any better if an additional 20,000 people are forced out of work? Are the Union Leaders, such as Bill Pollock and Perry Hayes, willing to put their membership at risk, both financially and emotionally, to prove a point to DAVEX2.
Will loss of jobs occur with changes in work rules and productivity? Yes. How many, I don't know. However, if this means short term pain for long term gain, would this not be a prudent course to pursue?
Thanks for the offer to send me an application for Denny's. Really not required.
I am dusting off my BS and MBA diplomas should they be needed. Hate to think I may have to go get a "real job" after all these years. What I do now never seemed to be a job because it was so much fun.
Lindy
OldpropGuy
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 185
- 8
Lindy (and others),
Your stories are very touching but you seem to be missing the point. You seem to think everyone should feel the same way you do.
Each employee of US Airways has the ability, and right, to choose what sacrifices he or she is willing to make to keep this airline alive. Some will do anything just to keep their jobs. Others feel it is not worth the continuing stress and headaches to watch the company deteriorate further. If this airline cannot provide decent quality of life and compensation, then it's time to let it die! Each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice and their limit.
Management style has a very large influence on what an employee is willing to accept. Those legendary leaders of the past, with the ability to rally the troops who would follow them to hell and back, seem to be a thing of the past. It still does not take a genius to know people work harder with you, than for you. You can only get so much by cracking the whip! This technique also produces absolutely no loyal followers!
Many say those who don't like it here should just quit and move on, leaving those who wish to remain with jobs. Others say those who will accept anything should move on to a bottom feeder employer, such as Mesa or the other slave drivers! There are enough of them out there without US Airways further lowering the bar for the entire industry.
I think this company can still survive, but it won't be easy. Management and workers both have changes and choices to make.
Remember, it's not you life, it's just what you currently do for a living!
Good luck to all.
Your stories are very touching but you seem to be missing the point. You seem to think everyone should feel the same way you do.
Each employee of US Airways has the ability, and right, to choose what sacrifices he or she is willing to make to keep this airline alive. Some will do anything just to keep their jobs. Others feel it is not worth the continuing stress and headaches to watch the company deteriorate further. If this airline cannot provide decent quality of life and compensation, then it's time to let it die! Each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice and their limit.
Management style has a very large influence on what an employee is willing to accept. Those legendary leaders of the past, with the ability to rally the troops who would follow them to hell and back, seem to be a thing of the past. It still does not take a genius to know people work harder with you, than for you. You can only get so much by cracking the whip! This technique also produces absolutely no loyal followers!
Many say those who don't like it here should just quit and move on, leaving those who wish to remain with jobs. Others say those who will accept anything should move on to a bottom feeder employer, such as Mesa or the other slave drivers! There are enough of them out there without US Airways further lowering the bar for the entire industry.
I think this company can still survive, but it won't be easy. Management and workers both have changes and choices to make.
Remember, it's not you life, it's just what you currently do for a living!
Good luck to all.
PSA1979
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 360
- 6
OldpropGuy says "Each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice and their limit."
I think you are missing Lindy's point here. Each person does have to decide, but the ones that decide that it is not worth it can't make that choice for everyone else by shutting the compay down. If I choose to stay on and try to help this company survive and you decide it's time to give up, You need to quit and let me follow my heart. Your decision to shut it down makes my choice worth nothing.
To all those wanting to ruin my life and the rest of the employees that are willing to stay: Go find another job (if you can) and leave us to do what it takes.
Every time it is mentioned that the wages we make aren't liveable, you slap all the express and wholly owned employees in the face. What do you bet they can and do live off of what they earn? Granted it is not a great living and it is probably very hard to make ends meet, but it isn't what we are making.
Let me look at the plan, let me vote on what I would be willing to do. There is a lot of productivity changes for f/a's that can and should be emplemented. And take down the ITD fence!!!! Stop sitting around for 3 hours in CLT or PHL. Give me a 30 hour 4 day, 24 hour 3 day, 20 hour 2 day, 10 hour 1 day. I'll be glad to come in and get the most time. I don't even commute, and I still want to do the max amount of flying in a day.
Take away the min and max flight time for the month. If I go below 45 hours, charge me more for my insurance, if I go over 105, so be it. Let me police myself. Let me trip trade for days off, not trip for trip. I'll make up the time, if I don't, it doesn't matter, some one else will.
I think you are missing Lindy's point here. Each person does have to decide, but the ones that decide that it is not worth it can't make that choice for everyone else by shutting the compay down. If I choose to stay on and try to help this company survive and you decide it's time to give up, You need to quit and let me follow my heart. Your decision to shut it down makes my choice worth nothing.
To all those wanting to ruin my life and the rest of the employees that are willing to stay: Go find another job (if you can) and leave us to do what it takes.
Every time it is mentioned that the wages we make aren't liveable, you slap all the express and wholly owned employees in the face. What do you bet they can and do live off of what they earn? Granted it is not a great living and it is probably very hard to make ends meet, but it isn't what we are making.
Let me look at the plan, let me vote on what I would be willing to do. There is a lot of productivity changes for f/a's that can and should be emplemented. And take down the ITD fence!!!! Stop sitting around for 3 hours in CLT or PHL. Give me a 30 hour 4 day, 24 hour 3 day, 20 hour 2 day, 10 hour 1 day. I'll be glad to come in and get the most time. I don't even commute, and I still want to do the max amount of flying in a day.
Take away the min and max flight time for the month. If I go below 45 hours, charge me more for my insurance, if I go over 105, so be it. Let me police myself. Let me trip trade for days off, not trip for trip. I'll make up the time, if I don't, it doesn't matter, some one else will.
Well why not a 40 hour 4 day? :blink: Or how about a 10 hour 1 day today, then tomorrow they give you another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour one day, then another 10 hour one day....then you get one day off. Then repeat. IAD/LAX turns, 5 days a week! I wonder how long a person would last. Even you noted that a 2 day could go 20 hours but the third day you only added 4 more hours because you realize how difficult it would be to sustain....and that's the catch. They'll schedule all 2 day trips...BACK TO BACK!
Right now ALL the management teams from ALL the airlines are fishing to see how much we can take. I'm starting to feel like one of Dr. Mengele's victims.
h34r:jimntx
Veteran
Here's what's happening at AA as the result of our latest concessions...Fly said:Well why not a 40 hour 4 day? :blink: Or how about a 10 hour 1 day today, then tomorrow they give you another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour one day, then another 10 hour one day....then you get one day off. Then repeat. IAD/LAX turns, 5 days a week! I wonder how long a person would last. Even you noted that a 2 day could go 20 hours but the third day you only added 4 more hours because you realize how difficult it would be to sustain....and that's the catch. They'll schedule all 2 day trips...BACK TO BACK!
Right now ALL the management teams from ALL the airlines are fishing to see how much we can take. I'm starting to feel like one of Dr. Mengele's victims.
1. 10 hour overnight Miami-Rio de Janeiro. 11 hours on the ground. 10 hour overnight back to Miami.
2. Company's idea of the FAA rule which states that if layover is cut to 8 hours on first night, a minimum of 14 hour rest period the next night... Schedule a two-day with 8 hours the first night. You get your makeup rest at home on your own time.
3. 14 hour leg from DFW to Narita with no crew meals for flight attendants. If you want or need to eat during that 14 hours, you have to bring your own.
Now that being said, the company is still not using flight attendants efficiently. Trips are still being created that have a crew sitting for 3-4 hours in DFW, or ORD, or MIA before continuing on their next leg. But, you know, it's all the evil unions' fault. Always has been, always will be.
U
USA320Pilot
Guest
PSA1979:
PSA1979 said: "OldpropGuy says "Each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice and their limit."
I think you are missing Lindy's point here. Each person does have to decide, but the ones that decide that it is not worth it can't make that choice for everyone else by shutting the compay down. If I choose to stay on and try to help this company survive and you decide it's time to give up, You need to quit and let me follow my heart. Your decision to shut it down makes my choice worth nothing.
To all those wanting to ruin my life and the rest of the employees that are willing to stay: Go find another job (if you can) and leave us to do what it takes.
Every time it is mentioned that the wages we make aren't liveable, you slap all the express and wholly owned employees in the face. What do you bet they can and do live off of what they earn? Granted it is not a great living and it is probably very hard to make ends meet, but it isn't what we are making.
Let me look at the plan, let me vote on what I would be willing to do."
USA320Pilot comments: Your point is valid and for those who want to burn the place to the ground, that thought is a slap in the face to our fellow US Airways Express and other colleagues. After the plan and options are submitted, then those who do not like the plan should simply resign from the company instead of trying to burn it to the ground. What good did that do for the Eastern employees?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
P.S. .S. US Airways recently informed employees -- that employees are banned from identifying themselves as US Airways employees online. Furthermore, employees are prohibited from identifying yourself as a company employee when posting comments on the internet or on other online services.
PSA1979 said: "OldpropGuy says "Each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice and their limit."
I think you are missing Lindy's point here. Each person does have to decide, but the ones that decide that it is not worth it can't make that choice for everyone else by shutting the compay down. If I choose to stay on and try to help this company survive and you decide it's time to give up, You need to quit and let me follow my heart. Your decision to shut it down makes my choice worth nothing.
To all those wanting to ruin my life and the rest of the employees that are willing to stay: Go find another job (if you can) and leave us to do what it takes.
Every time it is mentioned that the wages we make aren't liveable, you slap all the express and wholly owned employees in the face. What do you bet they can and do live off of what they earn? Granted it is not a great living and it is probably very hard to make ends meet, but it isn't what we are making.
Let me look at the plan, let me vote on what I would be willing to do."
USA320Pilot comments: Your point is valid and for those who want to burn the place to the ground, that thought is a slap in the face to our fellow US Airways Express and other colleagues. After the plan and options are submitted, then those who do not like the plan should simply resign from the company instead of trying to burn it to the ground. What good did that do for the Eastern employees?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
P.S. .S. US Airways recently informed employees -- that employees are banned from identifying themselves as US Airways employees online. Furthermore, employees are prohibited from identifying yourself as a company employee when posting comments on the internet or on other online services.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
Folks, this is one of the glaring problems with organized labor versus at-will employment. I'm not going to belabor the point (lest PITBull find and kill me), but you have to accept the will of the collective, be it what you want or not.
I'm not knocking the entire concept, since if the Airways folks did not have unions, CRJ-705s would be flying in express colors, Airbus MX would be in Alabama, and (remaining to be seen) there will not be another VF for the F/As. However, when the group decides something, you are stuck with it. It's a tradeoff.
I'm not knocking the entire concept, since if the Airways folks did not have unions, CRJ-705s would be flying in express colors, Airbus MX would be in Alabama, and (remaining to be seen) there will not be another VF for the F/As. However, when the group decides something, you are stuck with it. It's a tradeoff.
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,900
- 1
Fly -Fly said:Well why not a 40 hour 4 day? :blink: Or how about a 10 hour 1 day today, then tomorrow they give you another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour 1 day, then another 10 hour one day, then another 10 hour one day....then you get one day off. Then repeat. IAD/LAX turns, 5 days a week! I wonder how long a person would last. Even you noted that a 2 day could go 20 hours but the third day you only added 4 more hours because you realize how difficult it would be to sustain....and that's the catch. They'll schedule all 2 day trips...BACK TO BACK!
Right now ALL the management teams from ALL the airlines are fishing to see how much we can take. I'm starting to feel like one of Dr. Mengele's victims.
Maybe PSA's trip values were off a lilttle, but the idea is when you work, you work. Not sitting at airports waiting for the next bank of airplanes. And what if there were 10 hour 1 day trips.....or 20 hour 2 day trips. Imagine, you would only have to fly 9 days of the month and you are done. That is 21 days off! Make the trips a little more realistic at 8 hours. That is working 10-11 days a month. Pretty sweet deal in my book.
PSA -
Can you tell me what items in your contract impair the companies ability to schedule and create such trips? I know that the Pilot-me-to clause restricts you to the 8 hour scheduled block and 14 hour duty day. There would be an operational trade off if we split Pilot and Flight Attendant trip pairing and the CRM issue. Are there other items in the contract that are "prohibitive" of better utilization rates?
Also for any cerw members - I believe it is a Pilot FAR issue. Why is it that when you are scheduled to work a 13:30 duty day with 7:45 block that the next day you are usually scheduled to only fly 1-2 legs and done for the day. I am sure it has to do with compensitory rest, but not sure if it is an FAR or contract issue. Also, the issue of 30 in 7.....is that contractual or an FAR?
Thanks.
PSA1979
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 360
- 6
MMW.
Here is the compensatory rest from our contract, which I believe is me-too'd wiScheduled Flt
Crew Rest
Block to block
Scheduled/Reduced Next Actual Compensatory Rest Period
1 0 - 7:59 10:15 (S1)/9:15 (R1) 11:15 (C1)
2 8:00 - 8:59 11:15 (S2)/9:15 (R2) 12:15 (C2)
3 9:00 or more 12:15 (S3)/10:15 (R3) 13:15 (C3)
Here is the compensatory rest from our contract, which I believe is me-too'd wiScheduled Flt
Crew Rest
Block to block
Scheduled/Reduced Next Actual Compensatory Rest Period
1 0 - 7:59 10:15 (S1)/9:15 (R1) 11:15 (C1)
2 8:00 - 8:59 11:15 (S2)/9:15 (R2) 12:15 (C2)
3 9:00 or more 12:15 (S3)/10:15 (R3) 13:15 (C3)
PSA1979
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 360
- 6
Sorry, I wasn't finished and I posted any way...oops
For the first part, it is any flight time in 24 hour period, the second is rest and block to block rest, the third section should be next compensatory rest. I don't know for sure, but I believe it is me-too'd with the pilots. I tried to copy from the AFA site and could not get it to post correctly.
We do have 18+ hour 2 days, I am actually flying them in Feb and 9+ hour 1 days, which I have this month.
We have no reason to have these 3+ hour productivity breaks, and our contract specifically requires us to be paired up with the pilots. We don't want to change the work rules for rest, we need all we can legally get. But, we can go over 30/7 to 35/7 on our option. Which I do as much as possible to get the flying in the least amount of days.
For the first part, it is any flight time in 24 hour period, the second is rest and block to block rest, the third section should be next compensatory rest. I don't know for sure, but I believe it is me-too'd with the pilots. I tried to copy from the AFA site and could not get it to post correctly.
We do have 18+ hour 2 days, I am actually flying them in Feb and 9+ hour 1 days, which I have this month.
We have no reason to have these 3+ hour productivity breaks, and our contract specifically requires us to be paired up with the pilots. We don't want to change the work rules for rest, we need all we can legally get. But, we can go over 30/7 to 35/7 on our option. Which I do as much as possible to get the flying in the least amount of days.
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,900
- 1
Thanks PSA.....Appreciate the info.....
is the 30/7 or 35/7 an FAR or contractual.....
And the 18 hour 2 days / 9 hour 1 day.....are those block hours or duty day?
is the 30/7 or 35/7 an FAR or contractual.....
And the 18 hour 2 days / 9 hour 1 day.....are those block hours or duty day?
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,900
- 1
Thanks Auto
