Teamsters "raiding" TWU?

[Tex-Mech]

I just don't feel this is going to get you a "top contract" in our industry. And I am sure it's not going to give you anymore power/control over how the company deals with you, at any time. (Negotiation or day by day).

FYI. We are all well aware that we will not see a top contract. In fact we are assured of the worst contract in the industry for at least the next six years. Language wise, you are also way ahead of us. We have low expectations, and most here are not expecting to have any control over the company, we just want control over our union.

 

[1AA]

That is one of the parts I can never buy into. Where is it written or where is there blatant concrete proof that the slice is any bigger than it is with separate negotiations like we have had already ?

If you ever decide to pay attention then you will notice that it happens all the time.
Examples are: The company in the past and this latest BULL CRAP LBO says that
they have X number of dollars to negotiate with. The union decides how it will be implemented. Same goes for when the company wants X number of dollars in cuts. The union decides how to implement the cuts. It has always been this way. If you follow contract negotiations over the years you would have known this. So what do you follow or who do you work for? This is why we AMT's have lost a weeks vacation and the stores people did not. This is why we have 1/2 pay sick time and the stores people do not. AMT's and stores are both in the TWU in the same negotiations with the company. The company got their target number. The TWU decides who gets screwed more. GOT IT????

 

[1AA]

Ask yourself this question.

DO YOU WANT THE TWU TO NEGOTIATE YOUR/OUR NEXT CONTRACT?

The answer should be a clear NO. So fill out an AMFA card and lets get rid of the TWU ASAP.

 

[Anomaly]

Craig,

No one ever claimed that AMFA would magically get us a "top contract" at AA after we remove the twu and elect AMFA. The whole reason behind removing the twu is to bring democracy and accountability back to unionism and make that union a craft union. anamoly, cio/hss and the other twu supporting alias using posters here can not defend the twu because the twu does not have true democracy or accountability.

AMFA never claimed to give us more power over the company. AMFA provides us with power over the union. THIS is why we are removing the twu and the teamster attempt to water down the AMFA drive is so transparent it is laughable.

GO AMFA!

Very well put Ken. You are absolutely correct. AMFA will NOT provide any more power over the company. You will in FACT have less. You WILL have more power over the union as you stated because amfa is built on the beliefs of those who never trusted their own union. A union decision in amfa is hard fought and all too often dismissed. Good luck getting anything done with an amfa system. This is why the represent only two carriers now.

 

[Anomaly]

An example from UAL where the de-coupling of work groups should've taken place and didn't.

As part of the 1994 ESOP at UAL, provisions were made for a mid-term wage adjustment for all parties involved. At this time mechanics, ramp & stores, security, and food services were all under the IAM.

At the mid-term wage adjustment negotiations (which were supposed to be seperate by group) all the IAM groups EXCEPT the mechanics agreed to two 3% raises, the mechanics refused. After further negotiations the mechanics received an offer at the maiximum percentage the ESOP agreement allowed for at the time - two 5% raises.

Instead of mechanics only, ALL groups received the two 5% raises the mechanics alone fought for....why? Because despite the IAMs promises of seperate negotiations, we were never really seperate.

True statement, but do you really believe it would have been any different if we were split? Mechanics have no part timers and normally hire on with a career in mind rather than a transitional job like many ramp workers. In the ESOP vote you described, the ramp approved the 3% by a vary slim margin. Most everyone was expecting the mechanics (the majority of members making up the two groups at the time) to turn down the first offer. We ALWAYS did.

The rub in your statement is that we have been over this before. Are you one of those who argued then if we were split we would have gotten the ramp workers other two percent?

I agree that the split between ramp and mechanics had to be done. But for different reasons. I do not believe in the bucket and ladle system or pie scenario many of you describe. I do not believe that if we are split, mechanics make more and ramp makes less. I do not believe we get our slice of pie and most of theirs as well by being on our own. I DO believe however that a combined work force does create leverage to gain the highest possible wages for both groups.

I agree with the split however because of the mistrust and accusation created by both groups. Instead of being a unified force against the company, we end up fighting each other. Sound familiar?

Splitting the two groups in to separate negotiations or even separate unions has settled some of the animosity. I truly do not believe it has helped us one bit. This is my opinion, and an impossible question to accurately answer.

 

[1AA]

Very well put Ken. You are absolutely correct. AMFA will NOT provide any more power over the company. You will in FACT have less. You WILL have more power over the union as you stated because amfa is built on the beliefs of those who never trusted their own union. A union decision in amfa is hard fought and all too often dismissed. Good luck getting anything done with an amfa system. This is why the represent only two carriers now.

Man you need to stop sniffing whatever it is. Your not thinking with a clear head.
Do you think that we are going to let the TWU negotiate our next contract?
Take a timeout you need it.

AMFA will have American Airlines soon and then UAL/Continental to follow.
Maybe USAir will join us as well.

 

[xUT]

Very well put Ken. You are absolutely correct. AMFA will NOT provide any more power over the company. You will in FACT have less. You WILL have more power over the union as you stated because amfa is built on the beliefs of those who never trusted their own union. A union decision in amfa is hard fought and all too often dismissed. Good luck getting anything done with an amfa system. This is why the represent only two carriers now.

Hey 'ex-Brother'!
Here is an opportunity for you:
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54253-teamster-representation-questions/#entry935635
B) xUT

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

True statement, but do you really believe it would have been any different if we were split? Mechanics have no part timers and normally hire on with a career in mind rather than a transitional job like many ramp workers. In the ESOP vote you described, the ramp approved the 3% by a vary slim margin. Most everyone was expecting the mechanics (the majority of members making up the two groups at the time) to turn down the first offer. We ALWAYS did.

The rub in your statement is that we have been over this before. Are you one of those who argued then if we were split we would have gotten the ramp workers other two percent?

I agree that the split between ramp and mechanics had to be done. But for different reasons. I do not believe in the bucket and ladle system or pie scenario many of you describe. I do not believe that if we are split, mechanics make more and ramp makes less. I do not believe we get our slice of pie and most of theirs as well by being on our own. I DO believe however that a combined work force does create leverage to gain the highest possible wages for both groups.

I agree with the split however because of the mistrust and accusation created by both groups. Instead of being a unified force against the company, we end up fighting each other. Sound familiar?

Splitting the two groups in to separate negotiations or even separate unions has settled some of the animosity. I truly do not believe it has helped us one bit. This is my opinion, and an impossible question to accurately answer.

Just to clarify, the ramp vote was not approved by a "very slim" margin.

http://www.themilitant.com/1997/615/615_19.html

I for one, have never argued we(the mechanics)would've gotten more, as the two 5% raises were the upper limit set in the ESOP agreement. I made the point to illustrate that the ramp etc used the mechanics bargaining leverage to better their position.

In other words, had ALL the IAM groups(mechanics included) agreed to the 3% raises, UAL wouldn't have just given the extra to us. The mechanics held out for more and the other groups benefited when they had already agreed for the 3%.

If we had been seperate at that time(IAM/AMFA) I believe each groups vote wouldve carried the day, ramp+etc get the 3% they agreed to, the mechanics get the 5% they agreed to.

As to the rest of your post, I disagree.

That said, the current amalgamation discussions at UAL should tell the tale, if things work more or less as you describe,......"I truly do not believe it has helped us one bit"..... then the IAM should achieve roughly the same percentage for their members as the ibt does/has(last CBA)for the mechanics.

We shall see.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I DO believe however that a combined work force does create leverage to gain the highest possible wages for both groups. If the union workers of today were like the Eastern People I would agree, but that is not the case it's a I got mine generation. My point is that what ever our own group negotiates we get it all. What ever they can get for themselves not using me as leverage is what they get I never said I get some of thiers. If I get a higher % because I am in my own union than thats good for the AMT's in the industry. We are tired of carrying the rest of the classes. We are not better in any way just want what we can get for us on our merit.

I agree with the split however because of the mistrust and accusation created by both groups. Instead of being a unified force against the company, we end up fighting each other.

I truly do not believe it has helped us one bit. This is my opinion, and an impossible question to accurately answer. I am hoping that when all the airlines have the mechanics seperate from the ramp/stores we as AMT's will be treated better and then we can get the respect for what we do back. "YES" we have to change the way let the dead weight just do nothing but if we feel like we get paid for what we do we can work together to police our own and make it better for all. NOW AND IN THE FUTURE

 

[TWU informer]

Very well put Ken. You are absolutely correct. AMFA will NOT provide any more power over the company. You will in FACT have less. You WILL have more power over the union as you stated because amfa is built on the beliefs of those who never trusted their own union. A union decision in amfa is hard fought and all too often dismissed. Good luck getting anything done with an amfa system. This is why the represent only two carriers now.

Can you explain to me WHO the UNION is in your warped and cultist mind?

Is it the membership, or is it the appointed IBT, TWU, IAM leadership?

Nearly ever posting you have made here references both AMFA, and the TEAMSTERS as if "they" are some institution that is one thing, and the membership is something seperate. I cannot help help but notice that you have that "industrial union" mentality. And that mentality is true under any industrial union, you post in those same terms, as if you believe that we need the union to save us from ourselves.

Do you think we hire the "union" leadership to work for or represent us and our views? Or do we were work for both Airline and the Union? Because I have always believed the "WE" are suppose to be the UNION, and this mentality that you express is exaclty why card drives begin to start with.

Please provide a brief explanation of why you think every "Union" is made up of "them and they" and you express in nearly every post that the membership of every union is made up "YOU and Us"? Why do you not talk in terms of the "UNION" is "YOU, US, and WE"?

WHO IS THE UNION ANYWAY?
Just curious

 

[TWU informer]

Another great example of Teamsters Union "Power".
They are using their law firm against allowing their own organizer staff employees to become unionized.

http://www.amfa-aa.com/docs/teamsters/ibt_no_union.pdf

 

[Brain]

Very well put Ken. You are absolutely correct. AMFA will NOT provide any more power over the company. You will in FACT have less. You WILL have more power over the union as you stated because amfa is built on the beliefs of those who never trusted their own union. A union decision in amfa is hard fought and all too often dismissed. Good luck getting anything done with an amfa system. This is why the represent only two carriers now.

 

[Brain]

As a member working with AMFA anomaly is right on. One more thing I would add is we are very good at throwing ourselves under the bus. Do to this the company does what they want with us.

 

[TWU informer]

As a member working with AMFA anomaly is right on. One more thing I would add is we are very good at throwing ourselves under the bus. Do to this the company does what they want with us.

Throwing yourself under the bus?

You mean like this dirty Teamsters union busting event?

http://www.amfa-aa.com/docs/teamsters/ibt_no_union.pdf

 

[Anomaly]

Not sure what carrier you work for or what union represents you, but if you have the ramp/stores in the union that does represent you they hold you wage earning potential back. The union splits the pie with all members. If you have a union that represents only your class and craft you get the whole pie.

AMFA is the only union which allows the little guy to sit in on negotiations. They are the only union in which you can remove officers when they are not Looking out for the best interest of the membership.

Just those points alone make it worth giving them a chance. The TWU/IAM/IBT are all industrial unions and they will organize the ramp/stores and any work goup that will hold your wages in check to split the pie.

Do some research on your own, don't believe what you read here everyone has an voice.

Some have had thier heads in the bucket so long they just don't get it others are just followers
The TWU has failed at AA, and they MUST GO. This T/A is an example of the weak union at AA I am hoping that a new start will bring a new way of thinking and unionism back to AA so we don't have to wear a bag to hide in shame for again lowering the bar with wage concessions, hurting the AMT's of the industry.

How did you come to these conclusions?

Did you make all of it up?