Teamsters "raiding" TWU?

[ThirdSeatHero]

The ONLY TWO amfa represented airlines have the lowest mechanic per aircraft values of any of the most popular airlines. Either you did no research at all, or you are simply full of shhhiiiiiaaaaatttt.

I have a question....

When you want to dog the SWA contract on mechanic to aircraft ratios, its an AMFA issue.

When someone from AMFA cites SWA pay and benefits then its not AMFA, its an extended ibt agreement.

So which is it? An AMFA or an ibt agreement?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

At UAL we voted amfa in expecting that during our bankruptcy filing the membership sponsored association would protect us from outsourcing and lost benefits. We expected them to uphold the 20% outsourcing limit of our contract, but they failed. Of course, under amfa,we also lost our retirement benefits without a fight. Even after UAL switched to Teamsters, amfa reps were allowed and financed by the IBT to continue the argument for the 20% rule in arbitration. They were humiliated by the company, and lost again. Their only excuse was the same as now; we are in bankruptcy, we can not help. Excuses is what you can expect from amfa.

Bankruptcy? Do you know what you're talking about? Name one union that has represented through a bankruptcy and NOT taken concessions in wages/benefits ... YOU CAN'T! By equity AMFA lost no more or less than any other union on the property .....in case you didn't know, thats the law.

Pensions? AMFA lost it? Funny thing, in all the records I can find on the subject, it says the Government seized the pensions from UAL.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/12/business/fi-united12

Even after the seizure by the PBGC AMFA was still fighting in court for members against the phase in...

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca4/05-2375/052375.u-2011-03-14.html


As far as your comments on the the 20% outsourcing limit in our contract goes, you are a liar.

The ibt took the case over from AMFA at certification, AMFA reps WERE NOT funded to continue to argue the case, teamster lawyers handled it from then on.

Here is a teamster summary on the arbitration....funny thing it paints quite a different picture on the matter, than yours.

http://teamsterssfo.com/items/summary_20_outsourcing_decision.pdf

interesting bit here...

...AMFA filed the underlying grievance in 2007 and aggressively pursued it. The IBT
assumed the grievance arbitration mid-stream when it replaced AMFA, and continued to aggressively litigate it. Indeed, one of the remarkable features about this grievance is that all of the members and all of the labor unions affected by and involved in this grievance arbitration worked cooperatively and in unison to enforce the 20% limitation...

There you have it, teamsters admitting not only did AMFA fight but that they did so aggressively.

Additionally, they state quite clearly, that the ibt took over the case after being certified

How much more were you planning to lie about?

Pie in the sky is all amfa is. Do you want promises and pipe dreams from the amfa committee? OR DO YOU WANT TO EARN WHAT YOU DESERVE!!!

Promises & pipe dreams? Like opening the contract early? or negotiating a pension outside section 6? Or a double vesting pension? United mechanics are still waiting.

Pie in the sky? I'm sure 30+% of the Horizon mechanics can tell you about that.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

You exposed nothing. Your explanation is like saying all Republicans are liars because the Democrats proved it. You have different opinions based on ex-employees and ex-amfa leaders. Yes, please read the contract, and the 20% outsourcing arbitration decision. Even an independent arbitrator wrote that amfa made the situation worse and not better. The Teamsters even put the ex amfa rep on the three member panel to try to sway the position of the neutral but he could not overcome all the damage done by amfa.

What you have are spins and hype. amfa will do you more har than good. We found this out at UAL the hard way. Look at ALL the other previously represented airlines for further proof of this.

What AMFA rep did the ibt put on the arbitration panel? Jim Seitz?

He was already on the panel when the teamsters took over, they didn't put him there after the fact.

 

[Anomaly]

I want to know what it is that you think you have.

Petrovsky was gifted a position here at UAL because he led the ibt card drive, period.

There were several other ibt organizers with a great deal more experience than Rich, who would've been better suited to fill the BA role, so spare me and others here that teamster appointments garner you the "most qualified"

Like who?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Like who?

Ricky Barnes ... Javier Lectora ... both with considerably more contract/grievance experience than Rich, just to name two.

 

[Anomaly]

What AMFA rep did the ibt put on the arbitration panel? Jim Seitz?

He was already on the panel when the teamsters took over, they didn't put him there after the fact.

But they did let him stay on rather than replace him. They should have. He was a large part of the amfa 20% meetings, but I never believed he was in to help the members. Unfortunately, most people felt he would be the most helpful and the IBT listened to the membership. I will always wonder if the decision would have gone another way without his involvement. Probably not, but that is another story.

Point is, Jim was the amfa ACAC and even after the Teamsters took over, was allowed to stay on the arbitration panel and financed by the Teamsters. According to the arbitrator, he and amfa failed to define or acknowledge changes to the 20% definition by the company for several years. This negligence, along with the IAM's carelessness, lead to the dismantling of our base. You argue semantics because you know the facts to be true.

 

[Anomaly]

Ricky Barnes ... Javier Lectora ... both with considerably more contract/grievance experience than Rich, just to name two.

I'll give you Javier, who is now a very good Business Agent, but Barnes? Seriously? He was fired from his Chief Steward job for failing to file and follow up simple grievances.

 

[Anomaly]

I have a question....

When you want to dog the SWA contract on mechanic to aircraft ratios, its an AMFA issue.

When someone from AMFA cites SWA pay and benefits then its not AMFA, its an extended ibt agreement.

So which is it? An AMFA or an ibt agreement?

SWA has grown significantly in fleet size since turning over to amfa. Their mechanic size has not grown by those same standards. Other than the addition of Air Tran, their growth has been minimal at best.

 

[Anomaly]

Anomaly

Your correct its my choice, along with others here at AA.

Your at UAL so why are you sticking your 2 cents into AA's biz?

What do you get out of being on this forum spouting off about how the Teamsters are so great and AMFA sux? ARE YOU BEING PAID BY THE Teamsters? One can only assume that since its seems to be such a big deal to you that you attack AMFA and promote the IBT.
Have you have been at UAL along time??? Then you should know all about the TWU. Since you had the IAM/AMFA and now the IBT so tell us just what do you know about working under a TWU contract. 000000000000 ZERO thats right 0000000

If AMFA is so bad then you should be happy, because when we have them and they fail you can say that YOU told us. Then we will just have to do what you guys at UAL did vote them out.

"YES" I know the number of amt's at the two carriers they represent are small. BUT both are very happy and get paid well. You talk about how they just want dues well that is with any union isn't it. I just hope that the Teamsters are fair with the CAL guys since both are dues paying IBT members. It seems to be taking a long time to merge the seniority list. As far as being stupid to use your words you at must of been as well, since you guys voted in AMFA at UAL. You also believed that ESOP and all the other programs would saved you but they didn't and now what you going to retire with NO PENSION. You have merged with CAL lets just see how that works for you. How come I don't see you running off at the mouth about how the Teamsters are doing with the intergration of the CAL AMTs. Don't you have enough problems at UAL that you need to fix? Shouldn't you be there spewing all your knowledge.


since Anomaly admits he works at UAL why should anyone here at AA even discuss things with him he's an IBT member at UAL.

What a tired old question, but here it is one more time. Back in the days when we voted in amfa, there were not as many social media options to obtain information as there are now. If there were, maybe I would have re thought my original position to support and campaign for amfa. It was not too long before me and many others saw the damage they could do and realized the hollowness of their promises and claims.

I am not being paid to be here. Are you? Why are you or any of the other regulars here? Are we ALL on some type of payroll and not just voicing our individual opinions?

But since you asked nicely, I would like at least three things from my contributions to these threads;

1. To advertise an alternative to the largely unchallenged claims of the amfa supporters from one who experienced them. I am not saying that my views on amfa are for everyone, but unlike TSH and xUT, I did not have a positive experience at UA. Why should this be hidden?

2. If you join with the IBT, our mechanic ranks will grow within the airline division. I think that will be a good thing for all of us.

3. amfa has said all along that they would come back to UA as soon as they were financially stable. I do not want them back. I do not even want to see a card drive here. After MOST of my career dealing with one campaign after another, I just want to be at peace with one single Union. The Teamsters are doing good for us and I would like to stay that way. The dues to amfa brought in by the AA group will surely create another campaign at United. I am frankly sick of the campaigns. If this last push helps me to avoid another where I work, I'll donate the time to see that done.

 

[swamt]

You are so full of BS. How can you or anyone know that ALL the ex NWA mechanics still support amfa? Your willingness to create crap is telling.

Not full of sh#t anomaly. It's factual. The AA group as well as the AMFA National has proof of this. Any more questions? LOL Gotta love this stuff...

 

[swamt]

You exposed nothing. Your explanation is like saying all Republicans are liars because the Democrats proved it. You have different opinions based on ex-employees and ex-amfa leaders. Yes, please read the contract, and the 20% outsourcing arbitration decision. Even an independent arbitrator wrote that amfa made the situation worse and not better. The Teamsters even put the ex amfa rep on the three member panel to try to sway the position of the neutral but he could not overcome all the damage done by amfa.

What you have are spins and hype. amfa will do you more har than good. We found this out at UAL the hard way. Look at ALL the other previously represented airlines for further proof of this.

Keep reading dumb a$$ it's all there...

 

[swamt]

SWA has grown significantly in fleet size since turning over to amfa. Their mechanic size has not grown by those same standards. Other than the addition of Air Tran, their growth has been minimal at best.

Now this post is full of BS. SWA has been hiring since the 2000's. Can any other airline say the same? SWA hires at a very minimal rate. They don't over hire then lay-off. They hire the right amount and then call ot when needed. I still love it when non-SWA folks try to tell it how it is at SWA. LOL Keep posting Anomaly.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

But they did let him stay on rather than replace him. They should have. He was a large part of the amfa 20% meetings, but I never believed he was in to help the members. Unfortunately, most people felt he would be the most helpful and the IBT listened to the membership. I will always wonder if the decision would have gone another way without his involvement. Probably not, but that is another story.

Point is, Jim was the amfa ACAC and even after the Teamsters took over, was allowed to stay on the arbitration panel and financed by the Teamsters. According to the arbitrator, he and amfa failed to define or acknowledge changes to the 20% definition by the company for several years. This negligence, along with the IAM's carelessness, lead to the dismantling of our base. You argue semantics because you know the facts to be true.

Understand this, you cant dump the 20% arbitration loss on AMFA no matter how much you'd like to. The ibt was our representatives, they took over from AMFA that is a point of FACT. You lied in your original post on the matter and now you're caught in yet another feeble attempt to back track.

You claimed the ibt put an AMFA rep on the panel, they didn't. He was already there. (...and if you're going to repeat your excuse of...they let him stay...then guess what, its still an ibt decision, and thereby the ibts responsibility)

You're now claiming Jim was the AMFA ACAC, and that the teamsters thereby financed AMFA....ANOTHER LIE.

While it is true Jim Seitz was indeed once the UAL ACAC, he was the subject of a successful recall, and at the time of the ibt transition at UAL he was no longer the ACAC, he became a teamster member along with the rest of UAL on April 1, 2008.

The fact that you would attempt to label AMFA negligent in this is laughable at best.

AMFA negotiated the FIRST contractually binding language to audit the companys maintenance outsourcing. They performed that audit. They took the issue to arbitration.

You want an example of negligence .... up until the current CBA was ratified in late 2011, the language to perform a yearly audit of maintenance outourcing was still in our contract. The ibt was certified in April of 2008. Between 2008 and the end of 2011 how many of these audits did the ibt perform?

ZERO!

 

[Overspeed]

Now this post is full of BS. SWA has been hiring since the 2000's. Can any other airline say the same? SWA hires at a very minimal rate. They don't over hire then lay-off. They hire the right amount and then call ot when needed. I still love it when non-SWA folks try to tell it how it is at SWA. LOL Keep posting Anomaly.

The facts show Anomaly is right. In 1995 WN had 2.6 M&E per aircraft and in 2011 and 2.9 per aircraft. The have hired only a small number of AMTs. AA on the other hand had 16.1 in 1995 and 21.1 by 2011. The only hiring at WN is barely keeping pace with growth. At AA as aircraft get older we do the work in-house under our pre-BK CBA. At WN, it goes to ATS, AAR, and Aeroman.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I'll give you Javier, who is now a very good Business Agent, but Barnes? Seriously? He was fired from his Chief Steward job for failing to file and follow up simple grievances.

You're of course dodging the issue.

You have repeatedly defended the ibt appointees with the position that appointees are better qualified than those vetted through a popular vote.

While its true Ricky almost brought a DFR down on the teamsters, that didn't occur til well after Petrovsky & Molenberg had been gifted positions for leading the UAL card drive. At the time, his(Ricky) and Javiers experience in contract/grievance handling was superior to Petrovskys & Molenbergs.

Which brings us back to the start, at the time new BAs were made at UAL, there were better qualified individuals available than those appointed.