Strike? Now?

[BoeingBoy]

Not really, difficult maybe but not impossible.

1, date you became a union member
2. date of birth
3. flight hours
4. alphabetical

Coming up with a list is the easy part, Bob. Getting all the airline's execs and all the pilot groups to agree with it is the impossible part.

Jim

 

[Hopeful]

Maybe deep down, all you "let's shut down the country" guys aren't all that far removed from the fat cats you despise so much?....

The fat cats which you defend are engaging in class warfare, and it's not just exclusive to the airline industry. Just look what's going on in Wall St.

If you think 5% is nothing to worry about, then no President should have ever or should ever intervene in a strike. NEVER!

When all three union struck Eastern Airlines, management and local politicians ran to Congress to beg for intervention.

5% in the key industries will do harm.

How about a Longshoremen's strike where people will no be ablt to get their Chinese made products for a while?

 

[Bob Owens]

Ah, yes, the wet dream of every unionista -- your little 5% of the country holding the other 95% of the population hostage until your demands are met....

Sort of ironic, given how much contempt most of you have for that 5% at the top of the economic ladder, and how you rail about their only concern being lining their own pockets at the expense of the other 95%.

Maybe deep down, all you "let's shut down the country" guys aren't all that far removed from the fat cats you despise so much?....


Go ahead and shut it down, Dave. This past week has shown that business will go on even when planes aren't in the air (the government going on is another story...). Case and point... We had onsite meetings scheduled for a client in DC, and had to revert to video and webex conferences because of the snow. Despite my doubts, it was perhaps more productive as having all of us sitting in a room together.

So bring it on guys... ground all the union airlines for a couple weeks. Being able to get a full week's work done with a client across the country *and* be able to see my kids at the end of the day is the best of both worlds.

I think that business flying will diminish over the coming decades as the new generation that grew up with electronic socializing starts taking over. Some stuff will always be in person but online conferencing is the wave of the future. We do it in our Local. In a letter I wrote back in the 90s I brought that up as a warning to kids thinking of going into the profession. It just makes sense, why fly for a meeting that only takes a few hours when you can accomplish one meeting with Europe in the morning and another in Asia the afternoon of the same day if you do it online?

That said its not like all of a sudden the human race is going to become a bunch of homebodies, sitting in front of their computers and not traveling. Humans have a tendancy to roam and want to see places they've never been before. Looking at the Grand Canyon or a Carribean Beach on a computer screen isnt the same as being there and goods need to be moved as well. Other stuff is transported by the 5% that you talk about as well. More than likely every meal you eat, the fuel you burn, the electricty you count on all are a product of union labor, somebody had to move it from its source to where you got it, if not Unionized airline workers then unionized Longshoremen, or unionized Rail Workers or Unionized Truck Drivers, so if the 5% of us ever did get our act together the impact would be total and impossible to ignore. The point isnt to hold the other 95% "hostage" , its to free overwhelming majority from the greed of the top 5% who want it all for themselves and use fear to make everyone think that they should just shut up and accept whatever they feel like doling out. If we stood up to them and stopped their production the other 85% who work under miserable conditions with minimal vacation time, poor or no health benifits and no pensions would feel empowered to do something about their own condition as well. I think you undersestimate the fustration that many, many Americans feel about how the American Dream has been hijacked by those at the top who have seen their real wealth soar as we continue to sink. If Globalization was truly to blame then their wealth would be declining as well. The money isnt coming out of our pockets and going to the third world, its coming out of ours and going to the likes of you and others who produce nothing but get all the benifits of production.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just curious Bob - do you remember the last time an airline union threatened a suspension of service affecting all airlines where that union was the CBA? How about the last time every union at every airline threatened a suspension of service?

Jim

 

[Bob Owens]

Just curious Bob - do you remember the last time an airline union threatened a suspension of service affecting all airlines where that union was the CBA?
Jim

No, and if you do then your days as a Commercial Airline pilot are coming to an end because the closest thing to that was the IAM in July of 1966, I was 5.

How about the last time every union at every airline threatened a suspension of service?

Hasn't happened, but things in this industry were never this bad paywise before. I say that because Al Blackman, someone who knows because he's been here since 1942 said so himself and the numbers back up his statement. Even Lorenzos union busting wages at Continental were higher, in adjusted terms than what we are getting today.

 

[eolesen]

The National Forest Service learned a long time ago that every time a forest burns down, there's new growth popping up within months.

As I said, go ahead and burn down the company, guys. I can guarantee there will be people willing to step in and fill whatever void you leave behind, and the banks will find other companies willing to fly all those airplanes you lease vs. own. It may take a little longer than a forest burn, but even in your darkest days of airline hell, it would seem there's never been a shortage of other people wanting to play airline.

 

[TWU informer]

The National Forest Service learned a long time ago that every time a forest burns down, there's new growth popping up within months.

As I said, go ahead and burn down the company, guys. I can guarantee there will be people willing to step in and fill whatever void you leave behind, and the banks will find other companies willing to fly all those airplanes you lease vs. own. It may take a little longer than a forest burn, but even in your darkest days of airline hell, it would seem there's never been a shortage of other people wanting to play airline.

So now you agree One Airline might survive the burning but the complete industry shut down is a different animal?

Sure you can put the puzzle back together, but you would be the one blaming labor for the disastor while you and yours are taking massive greedy bonuses while the producers work under concessions and are being asked to give up more. A bunch good o'le boys playing "who can earn the most money" while producing nothing is destroying this airline, the country and soon your livelyhood also Eric. You will not be exempt when the economic collapse from greed comes and renders your savings, pension, and wealth beyond land and precious metals worthless. You will suffer right along with the rest of us when the results of greed coming knocking. Ever watch or listen to Glen Beck and his friends? Notice: It is not just the Democrats, It is not just the Republicans, it is society.

I don't mind helping the airline survive we needed but I will be damned if I am going to subsidize management greed and stupidity with another single dollar from my plate. The fact is government allows bankrupt carriers to keep flying and even dished out millions in corpprate welfare after 9/11. All the while the Executives lined their pockets with bonus awards and rediculous salaries.

I say if we (and I mean all of us) are going to burn the house down with greed, I cannot stop it, so I will just take and demand every dollar I can get my hands along with the rest of the lemmings. I have what is takes to survive in a collapsed econimic country. I have guns, surivival equipment, and before my Father passed away much training in fishing, hunting, and surviving off the land was passed along. I am not afraid, and fear is what management has used to date to shaft us all. No more.

For every dollar I have surrendered to AA, I have watched a greedy Bastard take ten. Why should I continue with that practice under the threat of elimination? Elimination is coming because of greed not because of the working man trying to survive in a cage full of greedy pricks. I am now willing to take the greedy prick down before I give another dime...Get It?

 

[Bob Owens]

The National Forest Service learned a long time ago that every time a forest burns down, there's new growth popping up within months.

As I said, go ahead and burn down the company, guys. I can guarantee there will be people willing to step in and fill whatever void you leave behind, and the banks will find other companies willing to fly all those airplanes you lease vs. own. It may take a little longer than a forest burn, but even in your darkest days of airline hell, it would seem there's never been a shortage of other people wanting to play airline.

Well I think you are wrong. I remember back in the late 80s there was a shortage of people willing to "play airline". The company was offering us $100 for every applicant we could get, but even then, if it wasnt for EAL and Peoples Express, AA would not have been able to staff NY1.
And, back then the wages were much higher in real terms than what they are offering now.

In my 31 years in this industry not until recently have I seen middle aged guys who could make days walk in and quit, since 2004 I've seen dozens. If AA burns down, then it provides fertile ground for the airlines that can pay, like SWA and others, to grow, just as the demise of EAL and Peoples Express provided room for AA and others to grow bigger and hire their former employees. You fail to see that we are the fertile ground not the trees.

 

[TWU informer]

You fail to see that we are the fertile ground not the trees.

Good Point Bob

 

[Duke787]

There are alot of valid thoughts and some off the wall thoughts, but the main point of this thread is that this NOT the time for the F/A's to strike. We can talk about unionism all we want, but we just don't have the power, and there are too many people that will take a F/A job away from one of our F/A's rather then work at Applebee's or other less then fulfilling jobs. We all want raise's but a strike this time won't be sucessful like 93. I don't think the company will underestimate the F/A's again.

 

[TWU informer]

There are alot of valid thoughts and some off the wall thoughts, but the main point of this thread is that this NOT the time for the F/A's to strike. We can talk about unionism all we want, but we just don't have the power, and there are too many people that will take a F/A job away from one of our F/A's rather then work at Applebee's or other less then fulfilling jobs. We all want raise's but a strike this time won't be sucessful like 93. I don't think the company will underestimate the F/A's again.

And so that's your personal opinion.

How did the majority of the F/A Union vote?

 

[nbmcg01]

There are alot of valid thoughts and some off the wall thoughts, but the main point of this thread is that this NOT the time for the F/A's to strike. We can talk about unionism all we want, but we just don't have the power, and there are too many people that will take a F/A job away from one of our F/A's rather then work at Applebee's or other less then fulfilling jobs. We all want raise's but a strike this time won't be sucessful like 93. I don't think the company will underestimate the F/A's again.

How interesting that your perception of a f/a now working outside the industry as only having the option to work at Applebees or other less fulfilling jobs. Most f/as are very well educated and have CHOSEN to fly rather than work in a traditional job. The issue that many of the older junior furloughed have faced is simple age discrimination and re-entering old professions after 30 to 40 years in the airline industry. We are teachers, nurses, social workers, ministers, dentist, doctors, realtors, in sales, chefs, management, all across the employment spectrum. Why do people want to come back? Relatively good pay for a job you can leave at "the office", flexible schedules, and room service (just kidding).

The economy has the union in a difficult position. That being said, the continuance of bonus payments does not show good faith.

 

[Duke787]

How interesting that your perception of a f/a now working outside the industry as only having the option to work at Applebees or other less fulfilling jobs. Most f/as are very well educated and have CHOSEN to fly rather than work in a traditional job. The issue that many of the older junior furloughed have faced is simple age discrimination and re-entering old professions after 30 to 40 years in the airline industry. We are teachers, nurses, social workers, ministers, dentist, doctors, realtors, in sales, chefs, management, all across the employment spectrum. Why do people want to come back? Relatively good pay for a job you can leave at "the office", flexible schedules, and room service (just kidding).

The economy has the union in a difficult position. That being said, the continuance of bonus payments does not show good faith.

I know that our F/A's for the most part are well educated. I was suggesting the people that will take your jobs aren't working now or are doing something they do not like.

No disrespect intended.

 

[Duke787]

And so that's your personal opinion.

How did the majority of the F/A Union vote?

There has not been a vote yet. I think the APFA leadership is setting themselves up for failure. They're telling their membership that they will get "everything back or we are going on strike." They left themselves no wiggle room. We all want everything back, but realisticly we're not going to at this time. You guys in TUL knew that when you voted for the MOAC (mother of all concessions) we weren't going to see all those give backs for a long time. What makes you think the F/A's are going to get them all back at this time? We all need to be realistic in our expectations.

 

[Bagbelt]

Ah, yes, the wet dream of every unionista -- your little 5% of the country holding the other 95% of the population hostage until your demands are met....

Sort of ironic, given how much contempt most of you have for that 5% at the top of the economic ladder, and how you rail about their only concern being lining their own pockets at the expense of the other 95%.

Maybe deep down, all you "let's shut down the country" guys aren't all that far removed from the fat cats you despise so much?....


Go ahead and shut it down, Dave. This past week has shown that business will go on even when planes aren't in the air (the government going on is another story...). Case and point... We had onsite meetings scheduled for a client in DC, and had to revert to video and webex conferences because of the snow. Despite my doubts, it was perhaps more productive as having all of us sitting in a room together.

So bring it on guys... ground all the union airlines for a couple weeks. Being able to get a full week's work done with a client across the country *and* be able to see my kids at the end of the day is the best of both worlds.

Union membership at it's height was maybe 30%, today it's 12.4%. although in 1983 it was at 20% there were 17.7 million union members. Only 2 million more, which is not out of line considering productivity improvements alone. My point is as poor pay and benefits continue to expand and people who were once invulnerable to outsourcing continue to get hit, there will be a backlash at some point..