Siegel: Pittsburgh hub ''marginal''

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On 5/4/2003 9:20:41 AM firstamendment wrote:

trvir64,

Do you want to know what is stupid?

A city that doesn''t seem to get it when it comes to the changing airline industry. You speak of the new PIT airport built 12 years ago. By industry standards 12 years is a long time. For your information, I remember when CLT was a nothing airport and it surpassed PIT in it''s efficiency. Then PIT got a new airport which was waaaaaaaayyyyyy overdue and sat back with aging facilities on the exterior. Your city is worst than the people you are blaming. Talk of threatening. "We want to speak with one voice" In otherwords, if you don''t like it, pull out.

The other U cities have been willing to understand the CURRENT needs of the industry and have expanded accordingly. Gotten out of your tiny part of the world lately to see that? They aren''t living in 12 years ago. They have gone forward.

You seem to be so angry at U but you respond like a typical American airline passenger....whinning, complaining and entitled to everything and wanting to pay nothing. If your city wants to keep U, then pony up. If not, buh bye. U does not need PIT.

You know this is my opinion and frankly I could care less what anyone thinks. I hope we leave PIT. They are not and have not been aggressive in it''s support of U (oh I forgot that new terminal). We do not need 2 hubs in PA. As long as PHL is a moneymaker it is here to stay.

I resent those that are always crying SOUTHWEST. Fine. Welcome Southwest. They are not the savior. Check out DOT stats and you WILL discover our operation to be far better. Did SWA come up first in the WSU survey that has become a true guide to airline service? NO!! Who was first? Yep, US Airways. So go for it ''burghers. Lets'' see how many folks come rushing to your new convention center when all you have to offer is service to all the various hub cities.

Many have said (again..me me me) the fares out of PIT would be lower if U was out and others came in. Be careful what you ask for. Those cheap tickets you think SWA has across the board disappear when they are the only game in town, so your nonstop issue is void.

US Airways needs to spresd out the flying. Those aircraft left over from a PIT closing could be used for more point to point service or for more expansion into Central and northern South America. They could also be used to TRUELY build our eastcoast presence by offering our large customers transcons from BOS and NYC. Yes, it is competitive but we DO have the customer base.

Looked at the ATTACHE'' mag lately? Lots of codeshare flights out of DEN, who will also need to lower their cost. UAL needs to cut back a hub. We need to spread out the flying. We are attached to this alliance and I feel both companies will make this so close to a merged operation it will seem we are one. If U were to close PIT, take over DEN with her extra aircraft and UAL slims down IAD to transcon and international, the U/UAL alliance would be successful because the flying of both airlines would make more sense. And, for those always looking for the two to someday merge, the plan would be in play.

For the PIT faithful, don''t take this so personally. It''s a business. Maybe you could take part of that beautiful 12 year old terminal and turn it into housing. You could make beautiful apts located steps from the mall and the proceeds can pay for the 12 year old airport and the new stadiums in your cashstrapped city.

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What you are failing to understand is that the people who really count, the ones with the real power are right here in PA working for PA and its cities....and unless the system changes like tomorrow, PA and its cities still hold the cards cash strapped or otherwise. Your opinions are looked at by people on these boards, the opinions of PA and its cities are heard loudly in Washington where it really counts.
LOVE----Cav​
 
Thanks PITBull. I am a long time SUPPORTER of USAirways. Having lived all over the country I have continued to fly U when it's not always been the most cost effective. Why did I do this? Because there is a certain loyalty towards any product/business that you care about. Now that might sound strange. Why would I care about USAirways? Well, I have lots of friends in the Pgh area that work for U. My EX worked for U many years ago when we met. And I was bicoastal for a while until I moved to San Diego. There is a comfort to flying on the same airline over and over again. As one FlyerTalk poster remarked......"it's like being in your familyroom". You get to know the same people every day/week when you go through the airports. And I have been lucky to have the same F/A's on my flights over the years and they remembered me and I remembered them!!

It's sad that it's coming to a PIT vs the other airports. But this whole situation should have been handled when U was still in BK, not 21 mintues before exiting. Roddey, Murphy, Spector and even Santorum went to the mat to help save U. Maybe that was a mistake. Every American complains there is too much government interference in our lives, maybe they should not have helped U or any other airline that is in trouble. But that would have resulted in many on the unemployment lines. So it's a catch 22 I guess.

If U is going to leave PIT, so be it. If they are going to continue to use PIT, great. But the loss of airservice is what is important. Here's a posting from FlyerTalk message board that I found interesting.
>...............................................<

The thing that is driving me nuts here is some of the babble thats coming from the Crystal Palace...(note: I apologize for the length...and this is NOT an rant in PIT's defense, just trying to point out managements contradicting statements! )
Dave Castleveter: said that Pittsburgh is the airline's "worst-performing hub, the one that costs us the most and brings in the least revenue."

my rebuttal: it wasnt long ago that PIT was US's largest hub. see, Dave, what happens when you cut MORE flights from PIT than you cut from PHL and CLT is that you have LESS PEOPLE going through PIT. Less people=less revenue. duh.

naturally, its really easy to point to the present-day load factors and show the world how PIT isnt profitable. But what they dont tell the public is that THEY CUT THE FLIGHTS! Why doesnt anybody else notice this? In the past year(ish), PIT has lost nonstop service to (get ready) Omaha, Flint, Cedar Rapids, Madison, Little Rock, Saginaw, Flint, Champaign, Kalamazoo, Charleston SC, and of course, our International destinations, which are "supposedly" getting re-instated for the summer. And those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. The intriguing thing is, most of those destinations were "Express cities." Which makes you wonder why they want to make PIT into an RJ focus city if they couldn't hold on to that express service to begin with.

To be perfecly honest, I dont see much truth coming from Siegel these days. I think they purposely depleted the flights from PIT to prove their case that PIT wasn't profitable, and, in turn, get more cuts from the county government. If they had left the flights as is, the numbers would still be reasonable. But they woulnd't be able to run to the county crying "wolf."

Fact is, the $7.26 cost per passenger to transit PIT is LESS THAN THE $7.55 it costs to shove that same pax throguh PHL (according to California-based Leigh Fisher Associates)! Also, Fitch Ratings, a New York bond agency that on Wednesday downgraded county Airport Authority bonds, described the airport's cost for each boarding passenger as "reasonable." "All things considered, their [per passenger cost] is less than 10 bucks and it's not going up," James Gilliland, director of U.S. public finance for Fitch, said yesterday.

Here's a few more juicy tidbits from the Fitch Group:

US Airways has what is called a "residual" lease at Pittsburgh, in which all non-airline revenues, such as parking, rental cars and concessions, are first subtracted from operating and debt expenses. The balance is charged to the airlines.

"Basically, they're the very last ones to have rates raised on them so you can't really ask for much more in terms of rates and charges," Gilliland said. "[US Airways has] got a good thing right now as it is."

"They have the best financial lease they can get. We don't know what more they could ask from the airport without negatively affecting airport bondholders," Gilliland said. "They want free money but the airport bondholders are the ones on the hook."

The jig is up. US Airway's story no longer holds water in my opinion. The Daves need to get their story straight because no one should be buying this crap, least of all, the city and state government in the Pennsylvania towns. And the loyal frequent flyers in PA deserve MUCH better as well.

>........................................<

So will I continue to fly USAirways? Probably. But again, I will fly any airline that gives me......Choices, Service and Frequency. If U can't do that, then, oh well.


DCAFlyer,

Firstamendments posting was far from wise. He stated his opinion. Nothing wise in opinions. Facts are wise. What will be more interesting is to see what happens to DCA, IAD and BWI once U and UA merge. Oh we all know it will happen someday. Those 3 close proximity airports will be on the chopping block immediately. And that's just my opinion!
9.gif
 
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On 5/4/2003 12:34:57 PM trvlr64 wrote:


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On 5/4/2003 9:20:41 AM firstamendment wrote:

trvir64,


Do you want to know what is stupid?


A city that doesn't seem to get it when it comes to the changing airline industry. You speak of the new PIT airport built 12 years ago. By industry standards 12 years is a long time. For your information, I remember when CLT was a nothing airport and it surpassed PIT in it's efficiency. Then PIT got a new airport which was waaaaaaaayyyyyy overdue and sat back with aging facilities on the exterior. Your city is worst than the people you are blaming. Talk of threatening. "We want to speak with one voice" In otherwords, if you don't like it, pull out.

.....I know better than you about the "voice" of this city. I have a reason to hate it. Why do you? I only live here on weekends for the most part because it has a decent cost of living than other areas of the country I have lived in.


The other U cities have been willing to understand the CURRENT needs of the industry and have expanded accordingly. Gotten out of your tiny part of the world lately to see that? They aren't living in 12 years ago. They have gone forward.

.....sweetheart I live on your planes and travel the country daily/weekly. I see what is going on in other airports that are controlled by USAirways. I seem to recall reading that when Dave went to CLT and asked for connessions, the response was, well U have to give up some gates. Amazing how those talks ended abuptly. So what other cities in the U system have understood the need for these changes? Name them.

You seem to be so angry at U but you respond like a typical American airline passenger....whinning, complaining and entitled to everything and wanting to pay nothing. If your city wants to keep U, then pony up. If not, buh bye. U does not need PIT.

.....I pay, or my company pays, a good amount to fly my butt on your planes. I personally want nothing from U except the ability to get to my next job in a reasonable and timely fashion. The only "entitlement" I get is the frequent flyer miles I accumulate that I use to fly friends and family around....for free!


You know this is my opinion and frankly I could care less what anyone thinks. I hope we leave PIT. They are not and have not been aggressive in it's support of U (oh I forgot that new terminal). We do not need 2 hubs in PA. As long as PHL is a moneymaker it is here to stay.

.....Have not been agressive in U's support?? Did you not see our Senators, Mayor and Governor go to Congress asking to help U thru it's BK? Was your head buried in the sand?


I resent those that are always crying SOUTHWEST. Fine. Welcome Southwest. They are not the savior. Check out DOT stats and you WILL discover our operation to be far better. Did SWA come up first in the WSU survey that has become a true guide to airline service? NO!! Who was first? Yep, US Airways. So go for it 'burghers. Lets' see how many folks come rushing to your new convention center when all you have to offer is service to all the various hub cities.

.....I for one would never want Southwest in my airport. I prefer the majors with better service and that's what this is about now.....SERVICE, FREQUENCEY and CHOICES. U has held a death grip on PIT for too long. I too hope that there is a reduction of U in PIT so the other airlines can enter.


Many have said (again..me me me) the fares out of PIT would be lower if U was out and others came in. Be careful what you ask for. Those cheap tickets you think SWA has across the board disappear when they are the only game in town, so your nonstop issue is void.

.....the fortress hub fares of U have driven most carriers out. U is currently having a PIT to west coast fare for $178 in direct attack against America West. This fare is available until Feb 2004. Is that not trying to drive PAX from America West?


US Airways needs to spresd out the flying. Those aircraft left over from a PIT closing could be used for more point to point service or for more expansion into Central and northern South America. They could also be used to TRUELY build our eastcoast presence by offering our large customers transcons from BOS and NYC. Yes, it is competitive but we DO have the customer base.


Looked at the ATTACHE' mag lately? Lots of codeshare flights out of DEN, who will also need to lower their cost. UAL needs to cut back a hub. We need to spread out the flying. We are attached to this alliance and I feel both companies will make this so close to a merged operation it will seem we are one. If U were to close PIT, take over DEN with her extra aircraft and UAL slims down IAD to transcon and international, the U/UAL alliance would be successful because the flying of both airlines would make more sense. And, for those always looking for the two to someday merge, the plan would be in play.


For the PIT faithful, don't take this so personally. It's a business. Maybe you could take part of that beautiful 12 year old terminal and turn it into housing. You could make beautiful apts located steps from the mall and the proceeds can pay for the 12 year old airport and the new stadiums in your cashstrapped city.

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And to finish this........you seem to have a very bitter attitude against PIT. Why? And don't call me a PIT faithful. I may have lived most of my life here, but I have lived in Winston-Salem (right after that nasty takeover of Piedmont), San Diego (when U did have a presence on the west coast), Manhattan and outside of Philly. I could care less which airport I fly out of where ever I happen to live. What is distrubing is that PIT was created for the growth potential of USAirways. PIT was touted as the "crown jewel" of the U route system. Those days are sadly gone. The airport is a shell of itself just 2 years ago. Oh well. Things change. What makes this a bitter pill to swallow is the unethical business practices that your bosses use. Again I will state that YOU already know that. Or you wouldn't have agreed to all those paycuts.

You seem to have a very angry attitude. Are you sure you should be working for USAirways at all?

Personally, I don't care who I fly anymore (except Delta....UGH). My 100,000+ miles a year can be spread amongst any airline that gives me service to where I need to go, the frequencey to get me there and back and to have choices on who I fly and for what price. Let me reiterate the 3 big words in that sentence for you. CHOICES. SERVICE. FREQUENCEY. And that is what is starting to be affected by U downsizing this airport. If U is going to take service away, then give up your gates to allow other airlines to take your place. I don't see that happening. U wants to keep those gates. They are not about to let someone else have them from what we see.



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Travlr64,

You do know the history of PIT airport very well. It was the "crown Jewel" of U...too bad some refuse to remember this. Things do change that's a for sure thing. Hopefully U mangement won't be too stupid and let Pittsburgh go. PIT would be a great RJ hub and mainline as well. I remember being in a room with Siegel last year and he actually stated that CLT was a base on steriods" and everyone howled.

Thanks for supporting Pittsburgh and also flying U.
 
FirstAmendment:

Your observations as outlined in your post are very wise. The PIT folks are taking this very personally and they don''t have to. As I have said may times, it makes no sense having two hubs three hundred miles apart, especially when they are on the east coast. U needs to find another hub or point-to-point focus city or cities which are strategically located. Co-hubbing DEN with UAL makes the most sense in my opinion as that is where the alliance can flawlessly and seamlessly come into play and help to increase U west-coast presence. The argument by some on this board that PIT is a great facility is unconvincing. By that argument, so it ABQ, but that doesn''t make it a hub or even hub-worthy. (But then again, ABQ geographically makes more sense as a hub than does PIT.) As I have said, U needs realign its route structure to not focus on the northeast. We are now competing with LUV, Amtrak, and I-95, and a horible economy which is showing no signs of improving any time in the near future. Takeoffs and landings are expensive and there is no way U is going to effectively restructure its costs with short hops, even with small jets. We need to increase long-haul and point-to-point flying and unfortunately PIT doesn''t help us do that. I will miss the facility if it goes, and hopefully wherever we refocus (IND, STL, or DEN) we will be able to get an equally impressive infrastrcture. But in any event, we need to rework our route structure.

Thank you, First Amendment, for your wise post.
 
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On 5/4/2003 9:20:41 AM firstamendment wrote:

trvir64,


Do you want to know what is stupid?


A city that doesn't seem to get it when it comes to the changing airline industry. You speak of the new PIT airport built 12 years ago. By industry standards 12 years is a long time. For your information, I remember when CLT was a nothing airport and it surpassed PIT in it's efficiency. Then PIT got a new airport which was waaaaaaaayyyyyy overdue and sat back with aging facilities on the exterior. Your city is worst than the people you are blaming. Talk of threatening. "We want to speak with one voice" In otherwords, if you don't like it, pull out.

------->I know better than you about the "voice" of this city. I have a reason to hate it. Why do you? I only live here on weekends for the most part because it has a decent cost of living than other areas of the country I have lived in.


The other U cities have been willing to understand the CURRENT needs of the industry and have expanded accordingly. Gotten out of your tiny part of the world lately to see that? They aren't living in 12 years ago. They have gone forward.

------->sweetheart I live on your planes and travel the country daily/weekly. I see what is going on in other airports that are controlled by USAirways. I seem to recall reading that when Dave went to CLT and asked for connessions, the response was, well U have to give up some gates. Amazing how those talks ended abuptly. So what other cities in the U system have understood the need for these changes? Name them.

You seem to be so angry at U but you respond like a typical American airline passenger....whinning, complaining and entitled to everything and wanting to pay nothing. If your city wants to keep U, then pony up. If not, buh bye. U does not need PIT.

------->I pay, or my company pays, a good amount to fly my butt on your planes. I personally want nothing from U except the ability to get to my next job in a reasonable and timely fashion. The only "entitlement" I get is the frequent flyer miles I accumulate that I use to fly friends and family around....for free!


You know this is my opinion and frankly I could care less what anyone thinks. I hope we leave PIT. They are not and have not been aggressive in it's support of U (oh I forgot that new terminal). We do not need 2 hubs in PA. As long as PHL is a moneymaker it is here to stay.

------->Have not been agressive in U's support?? Did you not see our Senators, Mayor and Governor go to Congress asking to help U thru it's BK? Was your head buried in the sand?


I resent those that are always crying SOUTHWEST. Fine. Welcome Southwest. They are not the savior. Check out DOT stats and you WILL discover our operation to be far better. Did SWA come up first in the WSU survey that has become a true guide to airline service? NO!! Who was first? Yep, US Airways. So go for it 'burghers. Lets' see how many folks come rushing to your new convention center when all you have to offer is service to all the various hub cities.

------->I for one would never want Southwest in my airport. I prefer the majors with better service and that's what this is about now.....SERVICE, FREQUENCEY and CHOICES. U has held a death grip on PIT for too long. I too hope that there is a reduction of U in PIT so the other airlines can enter.


Many have said (again..me me me) the fares out of PIT would be lower if U was out and others came in. Be careful what you ask for. Those cheap tickets you think SWA has across the board disappear when they are the only game in town, so your nonstop issue is void.

------->the fortress hub fares of U have driven most carriers out. U is currently having a PIT to west coast fare for $178 in direct attack against America West. This fare is available until Feb 2004. Is that not trying to drive PAX from America West? And yes it is the PAX fault too. WHY? Because we wanted to be faithful to our "hometown" airline. Look where that's gotten us. You see the people of Pgh are a very loyal bunch and promote the health of our industries by supporting them. If we didn't U wouldn't have been here 12 years ago. So your reason is lame. And from this point on we should never support U again.


US Airways needs to spresd out the flying. Those aircraft left over from a PIT closing could be used for more point to point service or for more expansion into Central and northern South America. They could also be used to TRUELY build our eastcoast presence by offering our large customers transcons from BOS and NYC. Yes, it is competitive but we DO have the customer base.


Looked at the ATTACHE' mag lately? Lots of codeshare flights out of DEN, who will also need to lower their cost. UAL needs to cut back a hub. We need to spread out the flying. We are attached to this alliance and I feel both companies will make this so close to a merged operation it will seem we are one. If U were to close PIT, take over DEN with her extra aircraft and UAL slims down IAD to transcon and international, the U/UAL alliance would be successful because the flying of both airlines would make more sense. And, for those always looking for the two to someday merge, the plan would be in play.


For the PIT faithful, don't take this so personally. It's a business. Maybe you could take part of that beautiful 12 year old terminal and turn it into housing. You could make beautiful apts located steps from the mall and the proceeds can pay for the 12 year old airport and the new stadiums in your cashstrapped city.
2.gif

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And to finish this........you seem to have a very bitter attitude against PIT. Why? And don't call me a PIT faithful. I may have lived most of my life here, but I have lived in Winston-Salem (right after that nasty takeover of Piedmont), San Diego (when U did have a presence on the west coast), Manhattan and outside of Philly. I could care less which airport I fly out of where ever I happen to live. What is distrubing is that PIT was created for the growth potential of USAirways. PIT was touted as the "crown jewel" of the U route system. Those days are sadly gone. The airport is a shell of itself just 2 years ago. Oh well. Things change. What makes this a bitter pill to swallow is the unethical business practices that your bosses use. Again I will state that YOU already know that. Or you wouldn't have agreed to all those paycuts.

Personally, I don't care who I fly anymore (except Delta....UGH). My 100,000+ miles a year can be spread amongst any airline that gives me service to where I need to go, the frequencey to get me there and back and to have choices on who I fly and for what price. Let me reiterate the 3 big words in that sentence for you. CHOICES. SERVICE. FREQUENCEY. And that is what is starting to be affected by U downsizing this airport. If U is going to take service away, then give up your gates to allow other airlines to take your place. I don't see that happening. U wants to keep those gates. They are not about to let someone else have them from what we see.

9.gif
 
Travlr64,

Again, your post intelligently written and beautifully stated.

The worst part for the employees of U in any base, is we still have the management from "hell". Doesn't matter what they do, by using threats, intimidation, fabrications, kniving scheming tactics, they will screw any business, state, city, employees, PAXs... probably their own mothers...there is no business ethics and NO HONOR. They do not keep their word, and when you think you can strike a good negotiating deal for both parties...they move their line in the sand again. I think folks of honor are just not use to dealing with these types of "bandits" in business. But I think the business community as well as Congress is catching on.

I hate to say this as an employee, but I will say this as a tax payer, If ever this mangement comes to the Federal Gov. with their "tin cup" out, I hope they get thrown out of the joint right on their heads. I believe the business communities, and Congress has had enough of airline mangement "cry babies" and especially U.

Thanks for your wisdom.
 
Trvlr64...

I agree with the statement that those costs in PIT may in fact be reasonable and less expensive than PHL. The problem is Pit is not competing with PHL, it is competing with CLT as those two hubs are closest in O & D and their dependency on connecting traffic. CLT is much less expensive.

As for the cities listed with lost non-stop service to, if you go back to 99 you will see how many CLT lost, especially in the Northeast.
 
trvlr64 said:

Firstamendments posting was far from wise. He stated his opinion. Nothing wise in opinions. Facts are wise. What will be more interesting is to see what happens to DCA, IAD and BWI once U and UA merge. Oh we all know it will happen someday. Those 3 close proximity airports will be on the chopping block immediately. And that's just my opinion!


DCAflyer replies,

Trvlr, inasmuch as the adjective "wise" stems from the noun "wisdom" and wisdom results from the capacity of sound judgment, "wise" is a relative term. Therefore, my saying that First Amendment's opinion is a wise one was driven from my assessment that First's post was well though-out. The mere fact that you disagree with a person's opinion does not mean that opinion (or that person) is unwise. Accordingly, wisdom does not result from a regurgitation of facts, as you state, but rather from a persons understanding of the facts and their theories that result from the understanding of the given facts.

That having been said, I will now turn this around. I have not seen one person post credible theories as to why U should keep PIT. I see a lot of emotion, and that is understandable. But I would love to hear why we should keep PIT and non-emotional responses to the following.

Argument #1: U has two hubs three hundred miles apart. How does this make sense?

Argument #2: U maintains three hubs, all on the east coast. How does this make sense?

Argument #3: Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance. How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?

Arugment #4: In the coming months, U may have good opportunities to establish a hub facility to the west. IND may give U excellent terms on a state-of-the-art maintenance facility and favorable gate positions and terminal design input on the new facility to be completed in 2007. Why should U continue to focus on an expensive, underperforming facility like PIT?
 
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On 5/4/2003 4:40:12 PM DCAflyer wrote:

That having been said, I will now turn this around. I have not seen one person post credible theories as to why U should keep PIT. I see a lot of emotion, and that is understandable. But I would love to hear why we should keep PIT and non-emotional responses to the following.


Argument #1: U has two hubs three hundred miles apart. How does this make sense?


Argument #2: U maintains three hubs, all on the east coast. How does this make sense?


Argument #3: Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance. How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?


Arugment #4: In the coming months, U may have good opportunities to establish a hub facility to the west. IND may give U excellent terms on a state-of-the-art maintenance facility and favorable gate positions and terminal design input on the new facility to be completed in 2007. Why should U continue to focus on an expensive, underperforming facility like PIT?

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Answers as best I can from my memory and history of the evolution of Allegheny to USAir to USAirways.......let's see. And if any "old time" U employee cares to correct me, please do. It helps to learn more about this airline.

#1 PIT and PHL were the hubs from the beginning of Allegheny days. Yesteryear when airtravel was strictly regional, the northeast was covered by a few small airlines that merged to form USAir. PHL also had a strong Piedmont presence if I'm not mistaken. So they kept the hubs as they were and expanded them.

#2 Again with the merger of PI into US those hubs remained on the east coast. The merger of PSA into the fold was to give them the west coast that U desparately needed but U couldn't make it work so they eliminated the west coast operations. UA beat U's clock here. Even the thought of using MCI as a potential midwest hub coudn't be worked out. SYR and DAY (PI hubs) went the way of the express or low volume mainline.

#3 Highest costs because those costs were associated with helping U stay in PIT. Highest costs because the airport was built to U requirements. Lowest O&D because this area is drying up. No major business have moved in. This is a region problem.

#4 Have you flown thru IND lately? This is your idea of the future of U? Hmmm. Maybe the maintenance facilities are superior only because they were built by UA. And the comment about favorable gate positions and terminal design are what PIT is. The X shape was built to accomodate the thought that this would help to lower the need to expend fuel when taxiing. The runways were also positioned to be more fuel efficient and have the ability to handle the traffic of multiple takeoffs and landings. The underperformance of PIT was caused by your management when they removed flights. How hard was that to figure out. Less flights = less revenue.


As I have stated in many postings, I could careless if U stays or leaves PIT. We want those 3 big words I stated before. CHOICES, SERVICE, FREQUENCY. That is what is missing in PIT. Will it be a sad day in PIT if U left? Yes. Will I fly another airline? Yes, I already do when it's necessary. It's your management that is playing one airport against the others and you are falling right into their games.

Now should U keep PIT as a hub? Only your management can answer that. We can't. As PAX and employees we have no say or idea what is going to transpire. Should we care? As employees you should. The potential loss of 9000 jobs in this region is going to hurt. Transferring of senior PIT employees to PHL or CLT is going to displace those junior employees off to the unemployment line. As a PAX, again I have other airlines to choose from. And my life won't change because I fly them over U.
 
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On 5/4/2003 4:39:46 PM PineyBob wrote:

Frankly I support Mr. Siegel totally in his efforts. If the voters and taxpayers have a BILLION dollars for a total of 4 sports complexs then they can pony up about half of that to boost the fortunes of a leading employer in the state

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Piney you have stated in postings here and on FlyerTalk that you support Dave Siegel's position on PIT. Care to explain them? You've never given a single reason on either board why you feel this way. Enlighten us, please.
 

Argument #1: U has two hubs three hundred miles apart. How does this make sense?

>One soon to be a RJ hub...problem solved

Argument #2: U maintains three hubs, all on the east coast. How does this make sense?

>Two are for heavy maintenance, not enough room for both at one hub....tis my understanding. Could be solved if either CLT or PIT expanded for maintenance. Philly does NOT do maintenance.

Argument #3: Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance. How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?

>Again, Pit will be RJ city and heavy maintenance center for RJ’s or both Mainline & RJ’s

Arugment #4: In the coming months, U may have good opportunities to establish a hub facility to the west. IND may give U excellent terms on a state-of-the-art maintenance facility and favorable gate positions and terminal design input on the new facility to be completed in 2007. Why should U continue to focus on an expensive, underperforming facility like PIT?

>Dave C. the U spokesman already stated publicly SEVERAL times that will NOT happen for many reasons, just ask UAL, too big and too expensive for little ole U and TOO far west as well.
>>I realize many people want Pit to go away, and that’s fine, but I still say and believe it’s simply too big of a political hot potato. Philly is in the same state where the heavy weight of transportation resides as well as other politicians who have lots of power, these people count on millions of votes that have direct ties to Pit and its future. U will not get everything it wants and just dump Pit, even if they want to, it won’t happen. Short of a total buy out down the road and becoming part of another airline, I believe Pit will remain, smaller no doubt, but remain it will. Even Dave B the money man said as much. Some posts on these boards are total fantasy and wishful thinking. Everything is not all cut and dry and everything that is, doesn’t all make good sense either, it’s just the way it is.


 
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On 5/4/2003 5:53:50 PM cavalier wrote:








Argument #1:&nbsp; U has two hubs three hundred miles apart.&nbsp; How does this make sense?


&gt;One soon to be a RJ hub...problem solved


Argument #2:&nbsp; U maintains three hubs, all on the east coast.&nbsp; How does this make sense?


&gt;Two are for heavy maintenance, not enough room for both at one hub....tis my understanding. Could be solved if either CLT or PIT expanded for maintenance. Philly does NOT do maintenance.


Argument #3:&nbsp; Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance.&nbsp; How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?


&gt;Again, Pit will be RJ city and heavy maintenance center for RJ’s or both Mainline & RJ’s


Arugment #4:&nbsp; In the coming months, U may have good opportunities to establish a hub facility to the west.&nbsp; IND may give U excellent terms on a state-of-the-art maintenance facility and favorable gate positions and terminal design input on the new facility to be completed in 2007.&nbsp; Why should U continue to focus on an expensive, underperforming facility like PIT?


&gt;Dave C. the U spokesman already stated publicly SEVERAL times that will NOT happen for many reasons, just ask UAL, too big and too expensive for little ole U and TOO far west as well.

&gt;&gt;I realize many people want Pit to go away, and that’s fine, but I still say and believe it’s simply too big of a political hot potato. Philly is in the same state where the heavy weight of transportation resides as well as other politicians who have lots of power, these people count on millions of votes that have direct ties to Pit and its future. U will not get everything it wants and just dump Pit, even if they want to, it won’t happen. Short of a total buy out down the road and becoming part of another airline, I believe Pit will remain, smaller no doubt, but remain it will. Even Dave B the money man said as much. Some posts on these boards are total fantasy and wishful thinking. Everything is not all cut and dry and everything that is, doesn’t all make good sense either, it’s just the way it is.







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Argument #3: Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance.&nbsp; How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?

Answer: Of the 2 PA hubs, PIT by far has less operational problems, ie, weather and ATC. This in and of itself is of significant importance, because flight irregularities create a ripple effect across the system which costs the company many millions of dollars annually. PIT almost never experiences ATC problems because it is not in the busy Northeast corridor. When the weather in cities as far away as New York City is poor, PHL is affected because of it''s proximity. PIT is not affected in this way. As a matter of fact, when I worked in PIT from 1996 to 1998, when weather problems developed in New York, PIT was a major diversion city and many aircraft heading to New York landed there until conditions improved. They did not divert to PHL, they just backed up and stacked up creating ATC problems for flights into and out of PHL.
Operational efficiency is worth 10 times the amount of O&D cash that is generated in PHL (or lost on bad weather days).

By the way, where is Chip Munn? Was he sacrificed by management after he dutifully steered his colleagues to the deep fryer?
 


Piney you have stated in postings here and on FlyerTalk that you support Dave Siegel''s position on PIT. Care to explain them? You''ve never given a single reason on either board why you feel this way. Enlighten us, please.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Can you say........MOLE



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On 5/4/2003 5:53:50 PM cavalier wrote:





Argument #1:&nbsp; U has two hubs three hundred miles apart.&nbsp; How does this make sense?

&gt;One soon to be a RJ hub...problem solved

Argument #2:&nbsp; U maintains three hubs, all on the east coast.&nbsp; How does this make sense?

&gt;Two are for heavy maintenance, not enough room for both at one hub....tis my understanding. Could be solved if either CLT or PIT expanded for maintenance. Philly does NOT do maintenance.

Argument #3:&nbsp; Of the three U hubs, PIT has the highest costs and the lowest O&D performance.&nbsp; How does it make sense that if one or more of the hubs must be divested it should be any other facility than PIT?

&gt;Again, Pit will be RJ city and heavy maintenance center for RJ’s or both Mainline & RJ’s

Arugment #4:&nbsp; In the coming months, U may have good opportunities to establish a hub facility to the west.&nbsp; IND may give U excellent terms on a state-of-the-art maintenance facility and favorable gate positions and terminal design input on the new facility to be completed in 2007.&nbsp; Why should U continue to focus on an expensive, underperforming facility like PIT?

&gt;Dave C. the U spokesman already stated publicly SEVERAL times that will NOT happen for many reasons, just ask UAL, too big and too expensive for little ole U and TOO far west as well.
&gt;&gt;I realize many people want Pit to go away, and that’s fine, but I still say and believe it’s simply too big of a political hot potato. Philly is in the same state where the heavy weight of transportation resides as well as other politicians who have lots of power, these people count on millions of votes that have direct ties to Pit and its future. U will not get everything it wants and just dump Pit, even if they want to, it won’t happen. Short of a total buy out down the road and becoming part of another airline, I believe Pit will remain, smaller no doubt, but remain it will. Even Dave B the money man said as much. Some posts on these boards are total fantasy and wishful thinking. Everything is not all cut and dry and everything that is, doesn’t all make good sense either, it’s just the way it is.




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I think that the mechanics in PHL will disagree with you that they don''t do maintenance. Sure not "heavy" mtc. but over night maintenance is important to keeping any airliner in the air and properly maintained by the FARs.
 
The Saturday edition of the Post Gazette had an article concerning the enormous reduction of TSA employees at PIT. The reductions are based on the drop in traffic. However, as pointed out by Kent George there has only been a reduction of 4% of originating passengers (where the TSA screeners are located). The additional reduction of passengers is connecting passengers. So, I guess some of the posts are accurate that the significant drop in revenue and passengers in PIT has been self-inflicted by re-routing passengers through PHL & CLT.
 

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