Seniority Agreement Reached with IAM/TWU/AA/US

[Slopoke]

What happens to people like me with 2 years in facilities and 20 years in fleet service? If they use occupational seniority do we keep our company time for layoffs or vacation bids?

I would assume that layoffs would go by the occupational seniority of the classification you are currently in. Company seniority is just for vacation bidding.

 

[Just Another BK]

OldBubba

I agree the TWA guys should of gotten their seniority at the time of the AA acquisition.

But that did not happen and will not happen this time around. This is an assumption on my part but I think just as fences were put up with the AA and TWA guys when they merger between USAir and AA similar events will be negotiated. Even as far as transfers between AA stations and USAir stations at least for a limited time frame while the unions work out which will be the representing union and after they figure away to integrate both work forces. Looking at the seniority of the USAir guys and talking with guys I know there, many are older and may even be gone as I might be before it all gets resolved. Most at USAir started in Maintenance when they hired in at USAir. Where here at AA alot hired into the ramp and upgraded after time even though they had A&P's when hired in. Your vacation time will always stay as it is by company time even the TWA guys got that. They bid vacation before AA guys. So much is going to be negotiated that it will be yrs before its all worked out.

The big thing I see the USAir guys are going to loose is the IAM pension, it will stop being funded. AA will not put into that. So depending on what the IAM does with it, that will and should be discussed before we merge. I would assume what ever union is at AA will be the union that when its all said and one will represent both.

The agreement which the IAM/TWU have put out is what was discussed months ago and will be done by the McCaskill/Bond agreement which is fair for all. BY classification/occupational time same just different name at each union in place.

Many TWA guys have many different seniority dates as well as some AA guys since some lost time due to layoffs and deals made by the TWU with company when they did not follow the rules and put up fences at AA stations that had jr guys.

Just a question we gave AMFA their time where? Explain?

Why would you think Fences will be negotiated? Just because that's what SWA/Air Tran did doesn't mean that same subversion of your seniority rights should be taken away. Yes taken away. You should be able to take your seniority to any station, to any position available that you have time in when your position is vacated for any reason. That is true seniority rights. Not diluted like many airline employees now face. Fences, Station Seniority, adjustments is all BS. At least the TWU and the IAM were able to come to an agreement so quickly unlike those groups represented by the IBT at United/ Continental !! The Mechanics are under the same Union representation at UAL/CTL by which the Unions internal policies supercede the McGaskill Bond agreement. How can it take two years to figure out their own policies? Lets say the PIT Base Maintenance closes in two years. Would it be fair to place all those mechanics under station seniority rules and take away their rights to choose another station of their choosing? I mean what happened to all the DFW Base Mechanics? Were they given an opportunity to bump another station? If not than some of you out there better think real hard about what Union you want representing yourself. The AA TWU Contract is crap. The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences. At least the IAM has been the only completely fair Union representing your seniority rights.

 

[1AA]

Why would you think Fences will be negotiated? Just because that's what SWA/Air Tran did doesn't mean that same subversion of your seniority rights should be taken away. Yes taken away. You should be able to take your seniority to any station, to any position available that you have time in when your position is vacated for any reason. That is true seniority rights. Not diluted like many airline employees now face. Fences, Station Seniority, adjustments is all BS. At least the TWU and the IAM were able to come to an agreement so quickly unlike those groups represented by the IBT at United/ Continental !! The Mechanics are under the same Union representation at UAL/CTL by which the Unions internal policies supercede the McGaskill Bond agreement. How can it take two years to figure out their own policies? Lets say the PIT Base Maintenance closes in two years. Would it be fair to place all those mechanics under station seniority rules and take away their rights to choose another station of their choosing? I mean what happened to all the DFW Base Mechanics? Were they given an opportunity to bump another station? If not than some of you out there better think real hard about what Union you want representing yourself. The AA TWU Contract is crap. The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences. At least the IAM has been the only completely fair Union representing your seniority rights.

Maybe so but the IAM has been dragging in negotiations. They should have asked to be released before USAir made a bid for AA. Now nothing is going to happen until the merger is complete.

 

[Salty Dog]

I would assume that layoffs would go by the occupational seniority of the classification you are currently in. Company seniority is just for vacation bidding.

What I'm wondering about is getting layed off from facilities. I want to be sure I can go back to fleet if there are rifs

 

[MCI transplant]

First, let me inform you, if you didn't already know, is that all retired exTWA/IAM, have been, getting a IAM penson check each month! ------ Nothing to brag on! But it does put gas in my pickup! -------- Second, "even if" the ex TWAers were to have their senority restored (not likely!) it wouldn't amount to a whole lot anyway! How many exTWAers are still out there? ------ At this point in time, not many!!!!! But just for the sake of doing what is right, even now, would be a fitting end to something that should have happened years ago!

 

[Thomas Paine]

Why would you think Fences will be negotiated? Just because that's what SWA/Air Tran did doesn't mean that same subversion of your seniority rights should be taken away. Yes taken away. You should be able to take your seniority to any station, to any position available that you have time in when your position is vacated for any reason. That is true seniority rights. Not diluted like many airline employees now face. Fences, Station Seniority, adjustments is all BS. At least the TWU and the IAM were able to come to an agreement so quickly unlike those groups represented by the IBT at United/ Continental !! The Mechanics are under the same Union representation at UAL/CTL by which the Unions internal policies supercede the McGaskill Bond agreement. How can it take two years to figure out their own policies? Lets say the PIT Base Maintenance closes in two years. Would it be fair to place all those mechanics under station seniority rules and take away their rights to choose another station of their choosing? I mean what happened to all the DFW Base Mechanics? Were they given an opportunity to bump another station? If not than some of you out there better think real hard about what Union you want representing yourself. The AA TWU Contract is crap. The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences. At least the IAM has been the only completely fair Union representing your seniority rights.

TWU mechanics at AA never had the right to go to the station of their choosing in the event of a RIF. The TWU agreed to the "Juniority list" where even the most senior man would be limited to picking between the stations where the most Junior guys are. This saved AA a ton of money, and the guys whose seniority was violated used to get $12500 for the violation of their seniority. Now the $12500 is gone, but the Juniority list remains where a Senior man who gets riffed can end up in a undesirable location while a man who is Junior to him remains in a more desirable location. I could understand if this occurred at Delta where there is no Union but dues are paid for this disservice. Once again the TWU does everything they can to make it as easy on the company to RIF people as if there was no union at all. RIFs are supposed to be as disruptive for the company as they are making it on the members. If a single RIF resulted in a dozen moves the company may decide to not RIF and meet their headcount reduction through attrition or buyouts.

 

[Barfbag]

Fences like ghettos were created and most TW employees were labeled with payroll numbers beginning with the number 6.

The Cactus ( USAir ) pirated a bankrupt carrier and should protect their own employees first.

They won, let them enjoy their booty.

Had the tables been turned USAir employees would have certainly received the same raw deal that TWA got.

Remember the AAlamo. We will never forget.

Best wishes to all.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Why would you think Fences will be negotiated? Just because that's what SWA/Air Tran did doesn't mean that same subversion of your seniority rights should be taken away. Yes taken away. You should be able to take your seniority to any station, to any position available that you have time in when your position is vacated for any reason. That is true seniority rights. Not diluted like many airline employees now face. Fences, Station Seniority, adjustments is all BS. At least the TWU and the IAM were able to come to an agreement so quickly unlike those groups represented by the IBT at United/ Continental !! The Mechanics are under the same Union representation at UAL/CTL by which the Unions internal policies supercede the McGaskill Bond agreement. How can it take two years to figure out their own policies? Lets say the PIT Base Maintenance closes in two years. Would it be fair to place all those mechanics under station seniority rules and take away their rights to choose another station of their choosing? I mean what happened to all the DFW Base Mechanics? Were they given an opportunity to bump another station? If not than some of you out there better think real hard about what Union you want representing yourself. The AA TWU Contract is crap. The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences. At least the IAM has been the only completely fair Union representing your seniority rights.

Just another BK

What ever fences are or will be put up in my opinion will be only temp until the IAM/TWU and/or IAM/AMFA or IAM/IBT which ever one is here at AA gets a deal worked out by which each persons rights are fair. I can't say and neither can anyone else.

How they will set the fences and what will happen to the TWA guys when and if they ever leave STL or any other tWA station. What is going on at CAL/UAL where both companies are the same union IBT why it has taken so long why don't you ask the IBT guys at your station since they are pushing cards everywhere. Ask them why, Ask which group there is going to get screwed. The loss of a pension at CAL guys would be one that sticks out for me. Just like I think the IAM pension that USAir contributes into I think at USA will be stopped since AA does not have that anymore.
We as mechanics in the airline industry are so worried about what ( I ) get rather than what we as a whole group should have. That is why companies like AA/UAL/CAL/USAir and all those from the past take and take. We get screwed.

As far as the IAM being fair to its employees ask the TWA guys what the IAM did to them at TWA? I was IAM at Eastern the IAM was great then, they also had most of the carriers back in those days as well. More power, now who do they have?
Of the three industrial unions I would prefer the IAM but, I would rather have a Craft Union at this point. AMFA is the only craft union available at this point for ALL of US.
If there was another I would weigh them both against each other and then choose but we don't have that at this time.

The TWU and IAM had it go to court and the court decided to give the TWA guys the 4/10/01 date. Unless at a TWA station and then get 25% at others not the unions.

"YES" both the TWU and IAM have come out with letters stating that they agree that merging by occupational/classification (which is the same) is fair and I agree. But this also has been talked about by us here on this board. NO ONE has the answer, we have an opinion and thats all. We all want it to be fair. When its all said and done the only union that will give us a VOTE on how its DONE will be AMFA ask the AT/SWA guys if they had a vote in it. The TWA guys didn't and the CAL/UAL won't either with the Teamsters.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

What I'm wondering about is getting layed off from facilities. I want to be sure I can go back to fleet if there are rifs

If you work for AA, and you have time in another classification you can bump back if there is someone jr to you if I am not mistaken. If you are rif'ed you can also fill a vacancy in fleet so you should not worry about that. If you get an A&P and work at USAir at this time you can bump to a/c maint as well since that is an IAM and IBT thing since they are on one seniority list. But not at AA since title I and title II are separate.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

TWA/Ozark happened before my time but I'll fill you in as best I can.

TWA merged with/ bought Ozark airlines in 1986, TWA was the larger
Controlling partner, with much greater market share in STL where they both competed. TWA also came up with 250M to make the deal fly.

TWA was IAM, and Ozark was AMFA. In the end, Mechanics SENIORITY WAS DOVETAILED, like it should be!! AMFA guys kept full seniority, time in service, and their pensions, TWA kept there's.

I don't think there were any layoffs as a result of the combination, no fences, no arbitrators was involved that I was aware of.

I'll say it again, you AA guys say you want a new union that will listen to the membership, and act in your best interest when negotiating a new contract, but when it comes to divisive issues like TWA occupational seniority, you pretend it's out of your control, you play deaf, dumb, and blind.

I've got news for you, It's not a dead issue, not yet anyway, but the clock is ticking guys. I encourage employees interested in fair seniority integration to contact there congressional leaders, union and company officials, find someone can will listen to reason, and help bring this fragmented work group together.

Awarding TWAers their full OCC seniority, would be a step in the right direction, and a source of pride and goodwill, which is obviously lacking here at AA.

It would also be a good way to pander for signed AMFA cards and/or votes, as many as 400 of them...

MIKE757

I agree already, it should be done by class/occupational seniority this is airline #5 for me I am one of the guys here at AA that does. But having a industrial union be it the TWU/IBT, yes even the iAM at this point does not give us the boots on the floor any vote. The union lawyers and big shots make the deals and we suffer the cost.

It may not be fair and it should be changed but until the IAM-TWU-IBT-AMFA all collectively go to congress and the FAA and the NMB and make it a BIG issue to change the laws that will make it easy for us when this happens. WE ARE SCREWED.

Just bottom feeders in the games the airlines/government play.

If we all were one UNION then that would be different, but we are not. You and I can't even get guys on our own crews to act as one. Every one is worried about them selves. The I GOT MINE syndrome.

"YES" even the way SWA and their union (AMFA) didn't even do it the fair way but it was voted on. Do I agree, "NO" but I don't work there and I did not have a say. But my point is they voted on it. Having a vote is a big thing.

That is one of my reasons I support AMFA, the vote.. WE all get a say.


AMFA at AA in 2013

 

[swamt]

Why would you think Fences will be negotiated? Just because that's what SWA/Air Tran did doesn't mean that same subversion of your seniority rights should be taken away. Yes taken away. You should be able to take your seniority to any station, to any position available that you have time in when your position is vacated for any reason. That is true seniority rights. Not diluted like many airline employees now face. Fences, Station Seniority, adjustments is all BS. At least the TWU and the IAM were able to come to an agreement so quickly unlike those groups represented by the IBT at United/ Continental !! The Mechanics are under the same Union representation at UAL/CTL by which the Unions internal policies supercede the McGaskill Bond agreement. How can it take two years to figure out their own policies? Lets say the PIT Base Maintenance closes in two years. Would it be fair to place all those mechanics under station seniority rules and take away their rights to choose another station of their choosing? I mean what happened to all the DFW Base Mechanics? Were they given an opportunity to bump another station? If not than some of you out there better think real hard about what Union you want representing yourself. The AA TWU Contract is crap. The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences. At least the IAM has been the only completely fair Union representing your seniority rights.

Allow me to correct your statements about the SWA/AT integration. In the middle of nego's fences were discussed, but were later thrown out of discussions. The final integration has no fences, but rather, a simple increase in seniority for the SWA mechs of 4 years across the board that the SWA mechs can take with them wherever they go, even to prior AT stations prior to SWA buying AT. Again no fences anywhere. My second correction for you: Above you posted the following; "The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences." AMFA in no way subverted it's members seniority rights. Again there were no fences, and the increase in seniority was done just like all the other groups did on the property except for one. With this in mind, a lot of the groups receiving increased seniority boost, came from a third party arbitrator as well as other groups nego an increase and both sides agreed to it, voted on it, and overwhelmingly passed by both sides with over 85% of both carriers mechs agreeing with the SLI. Even on the AT side they voted just over 86% to accept the deal which was a little more than the SWA mechs percentile for acceptance of SLI. On the SWA side it was the membership that would not budge off the 4 yrs, and the nego team explained this to the AT attorney's over, and over, and over again that it was the 4 yrs or we would be going to arbitration. It took the nego team and many, many members to put extreme pressure on the teamsters to take the deal and at least put it for a vote. As the teamster attorney continued to play games (trying his best to beat AMFA) instead of looking after the memberships wishes, he continued screaming and yelling demanding all kinds of stuff, pissed off the company as well as the AMFA team and the company just started removing pay dates from their agreements and pushed the date for them to get on our contract further back, again, all because the stupid teamsters attorney got his pee-pee spanked and he wanted to do a dog and pony show to try and conquer or beat down AMFA. AMFA did not represent the AT guys until after integration. It was the teamsters attorney (Josh M.) who is responsible for the outcome on the AT side of the table, as well as some appointed nego's that the teamsters desided to bring into the nego's. If it wasn't for the teamsters controlling the nego's instead of the membership, as in AMFA's case, we would have had an SLI in a few short months. Don't blame AMFA for the outcome at SWA, it was the membership at SWA that caused the outcome, with the excellent nego team at the table doing "exactly what the membership wanted" nothing more and nothing less. So blame us mechs at SWA, not AMFA, AMFA did what AMFA is suppose to do, period. Can you say the same for the TWU? IBT? IAM? No you cannot. They all dictate what you guys will do.

 

[AANOTOK]

The final integration has no fences, but rather, a simple increase in seniority for the SWA mechs of 4 years across the board that the SWA mechs can take with them wherever they go, even to prior AT stations prior to SWA buying AT.

No complaints if it was voted on...but that still amazes me.

 

[Just Another BK]

Allow me to correct your statements about the SWA/AT integration. In the middle of nego's fences were discussed, but were later thrown out of discussions. The final integration has no fences, but rather, a simple increase in seniority for the SWA mechs of 4 years across the board that the SWA mechs can take with them wherever they go, even to prior AT stations prior to SWA buying AT. Again no fences anywhere. My second correction for you: Above you posted the following; "The IBT can't even figure out it's own rules and regulations and AMFA subverts its own members seniority rights with adjustments and fences." AMFA in no way subverted it's members seniority rights. Again there were no fences, and the increase in seniority was done just like all the other groups did on the property except for one. With this in mind, a lot of the groups receiving increased seniority boost, came from a third party arbitrator as well as other groups nego an increase and both sides agreed to it, voted on it, and overwhelmingly passed by both sides with over 85% of both carriers mechs agreeing with the SLI. Even on the AT side they voted just over 86% to accept the deal which was a little more than the SWA mechs percentile for acceptance of SLI. On the SWA side it was the membership that would not budge off the 4 yrs, and the nego team explained this to the AT attorney's over, and over, and over again that it was the 4 yrs or we would be going to arbitration. It took the nego team and many, many members to put extreme pressure on the teamsters to take the deal and at least put it for a vote. As the teamster attorney continued to play games (trying his best to beat AMFA) instead of looking after the memberships wishes, he continued screaming and yelling demanding all kinds of stuff, pissed off the company as well as the AMFA team and the company just started removing pay dates from their agreements and pushed the date for them to get on our contract further back, again, all because the stupid teamsters attorney got his pee-pee spanked and he wanted to do a dog and pony show to try and conquer or beat down AMFA. AMFA did not represent the AT guys until after integration. It was the teamsters attorney (Josh M.) who is responsible for the outcome on the AT side of the table, as well as some appointed nego's that the teamsters desided to bring into the nego's. If it wasn't for the teamsters controlling the nego's instead of the membership, as in AMFA's case, we would have had an SLI in a few short months. Don't blame AMFA for the outcome at SWA, it was the membership at SWA that caused the outcome, with the excellent nego team at the table doing "exactly what the membership wanted" nothing more and nothing less. So blame us mechs at SWA, not AMFA, AMFA did what AMFA is suppose to do, period. Can you say the same for the TWU? IBT? IAM? No you cannot. They all dictate what you guys will do.

By altering the seniority dates is subverting actual seniority. By giving some in Dallas with ten years 17 and not allowing someone to bump him with 16 let alone 11 years is a travesty IMO. So much for the benefits of a "Craft Union"? If you guys all look at every airlines CBA's they are all very similar. Whether its a pro athlete or actor or airline mechanic. The bargaining agent can only get what piece of the pie the corporation can afford. With fewer mechanics like SWA those that are left at UAL, Delta and the New American will be better off financially as callus as that may sound. The whole AMR BK like all the others comes down to fewer employees, more outsourcing and better productivity of its unionized workforce under today's economic environment. That's the way it is going forward. You shouldn't make light of the industrialized Unions that paved the way for the wages and benefits that Americans enjoy today from the sacrifices of yesterdays members throughout this great country. AMFA's been around since when? 1962? 50 years and what have they organized?

 

[Bob Owens]

By altering the seniority dates is subverting actual seniority. By giving some in Dallas with ten years 17 and not allowing someone to bump him with 16 let alone 11 years is a travesty IMO. So much for the benefits of a "Craft Union"? If you guys all look at every airlines CBA's they are all very similar. Whether its a pro athlete or actor or airline mechanic. The bargaining agent can only get what piece of the pie the corporation can afford. With fewer mechanics like SWA those that are left at UAL, Delta and the New American will be better off financially as callus as that may sound. The whole AMR BK like all the others comes down to fewer employees, more outsourcing and better productivity of its unionized workforce under today's economic environment. That's the way it is going forward. You shouldn't make light of the industrialized Unions that paved the way for the wages and benefits that Americans enjoy today from the sacrifices of yesterdays members throughout this great country. AMFA's been around since when? 1962? 50 years and what have they organized?

And if you want to believe management when they tell you what they can afford to pay you will find yourself paying them for the privilege of working on their airplanes.

 

[Ronin]

I noticed on the US Airway senority list the CC's have a senority date of when they assumed the position. Is this going to be carried over also? United has this type of senority also, it protects the CC's or Inspector's.