Sad day in AA history

[Hackman]

Which is why AA employees are generally considered to be aviation scum. It is what it iz.

Consider by whom? You? Pffft....

Hey pot, meet kettle. Return to the US Airways 2 time bankrupcy debacle please. :unsure:

 

[MCI transplant]

Consider by whom? You? Pffft....

Hey pot, meet kettle. Return to the US Airways 2 time bankrupcy debacle please. :unsure:

<_< --- No Hackman! By most the rest of the industry! Where do you think the term "Sky Nazi" came from? I didn't make it up!!!

 

[777 fixer]

What a nasty reply...

Guess you could say that the whole "We got screwed by AA, AA unions" is getting a bit old. Anytime there is a merger between companies somone is going to be on the losing end. Just ask the Ozark pilots about the TWA/Ozark merger.

< http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoda...lot%20merger%22 >

 

[777 fixer]

Which is why AA employees are generally considered to be aviation scum. It is what it iz.

If I were you Iw ould be more concerned with how the America West/US Air integration is going to work out. As I said before somone will be on the losing end.

 

[MCI transplant]

If I were you Iw ould be more concerned with how the America West/US Air integration is going to work out. As I said before somone will be on the losing end.

<_< -----And if it goes well, you'll be disappointed? Hopefully they've learned something about our debacle!!!

 

[L1011Ret]

Guess you could say that the whole "We got screwed by AA, AA unions" is getting a bit old. Anytime there is a merger between companies somone is going to be on the losing end. Just ask the Ozark pilots about the TWA/Ozark merger.

Ozark pilots got Date of Hire.

 

[LCC_#1]

AA is the entity that keeps saying that this layoff is STILL 9-11 related. They have managed to get an incredible amount of milage out of that horrific day. No other airline is still using 9-11 as an excuse not to recall their employees.

Yeah? American, Meet US Airways!!

 

[Kev3188]

Yeah? American, Meet US Airways!!

And while you're at it, say hello to Northwest Airlines.

 

[aafsc]

Especially when you have nearly 20,000 people as a "cushion", AA and their unions have given a whole new meaning to career.

Given that someone would have to be furloughed after 9/11 and everything else, it would have either been nAAtives or twaers. As it is it was all the former twa F/As (as it should be) with a substantial amount of nAAtive F/As. But we all know the vast majority would have been nAAtives if the twaers kept their seniority. If that had been the case, I seriously doubt that you would be here crying and moaning about their demise; after all, you expected them to be your "furlough cushion". Your reasoning would be, "well they are junior.. too bad, so sad. Good-bye." I know the twa mentality. I have talked to and worked with nAAtive rampers who have been displaced by twaers; I was told that the twaers were absolutely elated at the fact that they were "able to stick it to some nAAtives" and did not even try to conceal their joy.

You complain that the nAAtive F/As are not doing anything for you. Why would they? The majority of the twa F/As have done nothing but verbally trash nAAtive F/As. After the asset purchase was announced, the twa F/As (as well as all twa employees) demanded nothing less than DOH. Since the beginning, you have been trying to staple them beneath you. AA has said that they would be willing to discuss extended recall if the APFA would open their contract early. In other words, more concessions in exchange for extended recall. With the twaer's attitudes toward the nAAtive F/As,
do you think that they are willing to take even more concessions just so you can be recalled and continue your jihad against them? Ha! You would see Bob Owens cheerleading for the TWU before that ever happens.

 

[777 fixer]

"Ozark pilots got Date of Hire."

You are leaving out quite a bit of information. Provisions that restricted Ozark pilots access to widebody postions. Like only being able to bid for 767 captain/FO positions in 1990, L1011 captain positions in 1993, 747 FO spots in 1992 and 747 captain postions in 1997. Even when the got access to these positions they were limited becasue they had to have enough senority to hold them. Along with only being able to have 16% of the widebody captaincies. That little rule only expired when the junior TWA 1986 pilot was trained for that spot.

You also left out the part where starting in 1990 former Ozark pilots were gradually displaced out of DC-9 positions. And you also left out the part where some Ozark pilots filed a class action suit, which was dismissed, regarding the senority list. Guess somone was not happy.

 

[777 fixer]

<_< -----And if it goes well, you'll be disappointed? Hopefully they've learned something about our debacle!!!

Will it disappoint you if I'm not disappointed. Lets face it, in a merger between to similarly sized airlines like America West and US Air someone is not going to be happy. If you go with just date of hire the US Air folks are going to have a big advantage over the America West people. If you start to impose various restrictions etc on the US Air people they are not going to be happy.

 

[aafsc]

<_< --- Unfortunately there are quit a few Ars holes working for aa! That's way I'll never Capitalize those letters!

Well, you should capitalize those letters because without AA, you and the rest of the twaers would have nothing. I don't capitalize twa because of the twaers lack of gratitude for what they have. Ever since the arbitration, you have done nothing but pi$$ and moan. The twaers are always saying that there COULD have been a deal with America West, UA, or NW. Under Franke at America West, they contracted out ALL of their heavy maintanence, he would have shut your base down. With UA, all airframe was farmed out, again you would have been gone. If you would have ended up at NW, MCI would have been closed up like ATL, MSP, and DLH. The fact is twa should have been gone long before the overhaul mechanics at UA,US,DL,NW were. But thanks to AA, you and the other former twaers at MCI have outlasted them all and you are the highest paid overhaul mechanics around (the miniscule 200 or so Southwest mechanics that do C-checks don't count). You criticize us for telling you like it is. And before you or any other twaer mention that you gave Ozark their seniority remember 2 things. 1. You twaers did not want to give it to them. 2. Ozark was in not in bankruptcy, twa bought all their stock, so their labor protective provisions HAD to be honored along with ALL liabilities. I had talked to a former twa pilot who was Ozark. It was quite clear he did not like twa and he went on about how he got screwed by twa and how he had to take a pay cut and suffer from inferior work rules.

 

[nbmcg01]

Boy do you have some misinformation. 1. I would have never signed an RPA that didn't have furlough protections. 2. I think the operations should have been kept separate. Even with 35 years I would have been furloughed. I was on an overage leave (trying to help save other jobs) when the furlough occurred. 3. If you have read any of my posts, you would know that not all thought DOH was proper. I thought the provisions of the Alleghney Mohawk should have been followed which would have resulted in slotting. I would have been between 5000 and 6000 vs 1200 which would have been DOH. BUT if the operations had been kept apart, it would have been a moot issue. 4. I would NEVER sign a LOA without securing recall protections. 5. There is not one former TWA f/a that thinks the contract should be opened early OR that there should be any more concessions. You seem to forget that concessions affect us too. 6. With a 100% contribution towards AAs turn around plan and a conservative dollar figure of a contribution of between $600,000,000 to $700,000,000, extended recall has been EARNED and should not require anything from any active AA f/a. Sorry to burst your bubble. AA is the entity that keeps saying this is 9-11 related and they need to be honorable and not let the bad guys "win" by offering recall (at some point) to ANY furloughed employee wishing to return. Can you even begin to imagine the dollar amount contributed by the pilots, ramp, mechanics, non contract and management that AA refuses to acknowledge? This is unbelievable. Shame on any of the Unions for allowing that to go unchallenged.
When I spoke of the active f/as "standing with us", I was referring to supporting peers. The return of the furloughed f/as only help the active f/as. Less reserve, less extended trips, less having to fly the crap trips. By standing with us and demanding that both the Union and the Co acknowledge the 100% concessions from the furloughed peer only strengthens your position in future negotiations. It ups the value of the entire work force's overall contribution towards AAs financial strength. Someone has to think out of the box.

This thread was not meant to start a p-----g match, it was to mark a very sad time in the history of the f/a Union, profession, and in the lives of those affected.

Given that someone would have to be furloughed after 9/11 and everything else, it would have either been nAAtives or twaers. As it is it was all the former twa F/As (as it should be) with a substantial amount of nAAtive F/As. But we all know the vast majority would have been nAAtives if the twaers kept their seniority. If that had been the case, I seriously doubt that you would be here crying and moaning about their demise; after all, you expected them to be your "furlough cushion". Your reasoning would be, "well they are junior.. too bad, so sad. Good-bye." I know the twa mentality. I have talked to and worked with nAAtive rampers who have been displaced by twaers; I was told that the twaers were absolutely elated at the fact that they were "able to stick it to some nAAtives" and did not even try to conceal their joy.

You complain that the nAAtive F/As are not doing anything for you. Why would they? The majority of the twa F/As have done nothing but verbally trash nAAtive F/As. After the asset purchase was announced, the twa F/As (as well as all twa employees) demanded nothing less than DOH. Since the beginning, you have been trying to staple them beneath you. AA has said that they would be willing to discuss extended recall if the APFA would open their contract early. In other words, more concessions in exchange for extended recall. With the twaer's attitudes toward the nAAtive F/As,
do you think that they are willing to take even more concessions just so you can be recalled and continue your jihad against them? Ha! You would see Bob Owens cheerleading for the TWU before that ever happens.

 

[aafsc]

Boy do you have some misinformation. 1. I would have never signed an RPA that didn't have furlough protections. 2. I think the operations should have been kept separate. Even with 35 years I would have been furloughed. I was on an overage leave (trying to help save other jobs) when the furlough occurred. 3. If you have read any of my posts, you would know that not all thought DOH was proper. I thought the provisions of the Alleghney Mohawk should have been followed which would have resulted in slotting. I would have been between 5000 and 6000 vs 1200 which would have been DOH. BUT if the operations had been kept apart, it would have been a moot issue. 4. I would NEVER sign a LOA without securing recall protections. 5. There is not one former TWA f/a that thinks the contract should be opened early OR that there should be any more concessions. You seem to forget that concessions affect us too. 6. With a 100% contribution towards AAs turn around plan and a conservative dollar figure of a contribution of between $600,000,000 to $700,000,000, extended recall has been EARNED and should not require anything from any active AA f/a. Sorry to burst your bubble. AA is the entity that keeps saying this is 9-11 related and they need to be honorable and not let the bad guys "win" by offering recall (at some point) to ANY furloughed employee wishing to return. Can you even begin to imagine the dollar amount contributed by the pilots, ramp, mechanics, non contract and management that AA refuses to acknowledge? This is unbelievable. Shame on any of the Unions for allowing that to go unchallenged.
When I spoke of the active f/as "standing with us", I was referring to supporting peers. The return of the furloughed f/as only help the active f/as. Less reserve, less extended trips, less having to fly the crap trips. By standing with us and demanding that both the Union and the Co acknowledge the 100% concessions from the furloughed peer only strengthens your position in future negotiations. It ups the value of the entire work force's overall contribution towards AAs financial strength. Someone has to think out of the box.

This thread was not meant to start a p-----g match, it was to mark a very sad time in the history of the f/a Union, profession, and in the lives of those affected.

1.Separate operations? Would you twaers have agreed to continue to work at your substandard twa payrates (lowest among the legacies) or would you have demanded the same rates as AA F/As (the highest among the legacies)? I think we all know the answer to that. Also, given the fact that you twaers would have demanded parity with the AAers, it would have meant that AA management would have had to combine the 2 entities for efficiency ( shedding costs by getting rid of duplicate functions in order to give you salary parity with the AAers). Given human nature, separate entities was not possible.

2. While some twaers did not expect DOH, most did and the IAM (your bargaining agent) basically said "nothing less than DOH". They spewed the same crap regarding the ramp and mechanics during the arbitration.

3. AA management has made it perfectly clear that the only way to talk about extended recall is early openers. I have been here for a while and I know how they think. They are looking at the other legacies, UA, US, CO, and NW. At UA, they are hiring thousands of F/As because they (long time UA F/As) got raped pretty hard during BK. They basically lost it all and many saw no point in sticking around after seeing their new post BK compensation. As a result, these thousands of F/A new hires (along with ramp and agent new hires) will substantailly bring down UA's average labor costs. They are hiring off the street at US and CO- again new hires at bottom dollar. At NW, they recalled all the junior, new hire, low wage F/As to replace all those that are leaving due to the imposed contract. So what is happening at all of AA's competitors? They are lowering their labor costs by bringing in thousands of cheap new hires. If AA recalls, it will be the opposite because those on furlough (almost all former twaers) are topped out with max vacation and benefits, so AA's labor costs would be going in the opposite direction of it's competitors. So AA will do everything they can in order to avoid recalling as long as they can.

 

[nbmcg01]

I can only speak for the f/as but during the TWA acquisition of Ozark we did not HAVE to give them anything. We CHOSE to give them DOH. Given the fact that 5000 of our f/as were on strike, we tried to insure that the Co would not keep us locked out because of the merger. The Supreme Court upheld our seniority (strike related) issues and while there was posturing on both sides, in the end, we GAVE them DOH. The seniority breakdown was quite different and while fair with the TWA-OZ acquisition, I still say it would not have been fair with the AA-TWA. DOH would have given us "super seniority". Can we keep this to the original thought...1000 AA f/as have been removed from the seniority list as of 10-7-2006.






Well, you should capitalize those letters because without AA, you and the rest of the twaers would have nothing. I don't capitalize twa because of the twaers lack of gratitude for what they have. Ever since the arbitration, you have done nothing but pi$$ and moan. The twaers are always saying that there COULD have been a deal with America West, UA, or NW. Under Franke at America West, they contracted out ALL of their heavy maintanence, he would have shut your base down. With UA, all airframe was farmed out, again you would have been gone. If you would have ended up at NW, MCI would have been closed up like ATL, MSP, and DLH. The fact is twa should have been gone long before the overhaul mechanics at UA,US,DL,NW were. But thanks to AA, you and the other former twaers at MCI have outlasted them all and you are the highest paid overhaul mechanics around (the miniscule 200 or so Southwest mechanics that do C-checks don't count). You criticize us for telling you like it is. And before you or any other twaer mention that you gave Ozark their seniority remember 2 things. 1. You twaers did not want to give it to them. 2. Ozark was in not in bankruptcy, twa bought all their stock, so their labor protective provisions HAD to be honored along with ALL liabilities. I had talked to a former twa pilot who was Ozark. It was quite clear he did not like twa and he went on about how he got screwed by twa and how he had to take a pay cut and suffer from inferior work rules.

1.Separate operations? Would you twaers have agreed to continue to work at your substandard twa payrates (lowest among the legacies) or would you have demanded the same rates as AA F/As (the highest among the legacies)? I think we all know the answer to that. Also, given the fact that you twaers would have demanded parity with the AAers, it would have meant that AA management would have had to combine the 2 entities for efficiency ( shedding costs by getting rid of duplicate functions in order to give you salary parity with the AAers). Given human nature, separate entities was not possible.

2. While some twaers did not expect DOH, most did and the IAM (your bargaining agent) basically said "nothing less than DOH". They spewed the same crap regarding the ramp and mechanics during the arbitration.

3. AA management has made it perfectly clear that the only way to talk about extended recall is early openers. I have been here for a while and I know how they think. They are looking at the other legacies, UA, US, CO, and NW. At UA, they are hiring thousands of F/As because they (long time UA F/As) got raped pretty hard during BK. They basically lost it all and many saw no point in sticking around after seeing their new post BK compensation. As a result, these thousands of F/A new hires (along with ramp and agent new hires) will substantailly bring down UA's average labor costs. They are hiring off the street at US and CO- again new hires at bottom dollar. At NW, they recalled all the junior, new hire, low wage F/As to replace all those that are leaving due to the imposed contract. So what is happening at all of AA's competitors? They are lowering their labor costs by bringing in thousands of cheap new hires. If AA recalls, it will be the opposite because those on furlough (almost all former twaers) are topped out with max vacation and benefits, so AA's labor costs would be going in the opposite direction of it's competitors. So AA will do everything they can in order to avoid recalling as long as they can.

Dollar per hour doesn't mean squat without the work rules to back it up. Yes, we received a substantial dollar per hour raise BUT I flew more days, and actually made less because of the work rules. Add the fact that our insurance was free and TWA made a 14% contribution to my 401K and the LOSS was as substantial as the raise. So, you bet I would have kept my pay (which by the way was higher than yours after the RPA and we had much better work rules) The IAM is the IAM and unfortunately, due to their Constitution and Bylaws, we had no say. Besides, I wasn't a member. I was a dues objector or agency fee member. Just because AA has "always done it " a certain way, doesn't mean that they have to continue......