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TWA ers Thankful for Jobs?
- Thread starter TWAFA007
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- Thread Starter
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- #17
Aloha,
Here is a letter from a TWA LLC F/A to John Ward. It points out another major flaw in the APFA seniority intergration agreement. Nearly 1000 TWA F/As face lay off. Only leaves from the TWA LLC side will go towards saving these jobs. Over half of the work force would have to take leaves to avoid any lay offs. It would only take a little over 5% of the AA workforce taking these leaves to save these jobs, but the APFA wont let this happen. This clearly shows that the APFA TWA LLC due paying members are not being treated equally. There was a delibrate move by both AA & APFA to herd all TWA F/As into STL and set them up for slaughter. Thousands of TWA F/As have lost their jobs so that AA F/As can keep theirs. First, all of TWA F/A NYC flying was given to AA F/As saving over 1000 jobs there. Now with the next round of lay offs the TWA F/As will take another huge hit. How can up to 50% of the TWA F/As vs 2% AA F/As out of a job be even close to the Carty statement after 9/11 that the lay offs would be shared equally, between AA & TWA LLC. It is very appearent that AA just wanted TWA routes, planes, maintance bases, and not offer jobs to vitually all TWA employees. 9/11 just speed up this process. Isnt it interesting that the move to merge seniority lists will come AFTER this next round of lay offs? This effectively locks out the TWA F/As. Heres another opinion:
Steven Hammer - Sep 2, 2002
President’s Department
APFA
1004 West Euless Boulevard
Euless, Texas 76040
Attention: John Ward, President
September 2, 2002
Dear John,
Let me begin by thanking you for such a prompt response. It truly is appreciated. I believe you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and your taking the time to reply to my e-mail means a great deal. I’m sure it comes as no surprise to you that there are a great many things being said about APFA, and you in particular. I believe in getting the facts directly from the horse’s mouth, as they say, and then make judgments and opinions based solely on that.
With all that being said, I do have a few more questions and comments that I would like to have you address. As always, I try to research issues and problems that need answers for the majority of the workforce, rather than just myself. The most important concerns are those that have an impact on the largest percentage of the workforce. In this case, that workforce is the nearly four thousand TWA-LLC flight attendants now represented by APFA, the union you preside over, and are obligated to represent. As I’ve stated in the past, we bring a wealth of knowledge and experience that we’ve acquired around the world, through good times and bad times, over the cumulative 75,000 plus years that we’ve been professional flight attendants.
First of all, regarding the issue of overage leaves, since it’s the only topic we’ve touched on so far, how can the requirements be changed, either permanently or on a one time basis, due to the tragic events of 9/11, as everyone likes to put it. It should take nothing to get 1600 leaves from native Americans (and I use that term with the utmost respect), as that’s only about seven percent of the AA workforce. I’d think you could get many more than that if you wanted to. However, on the TWA side, we need 950, out of an eligible pool of about 2100. That’s right John, one out of every two to three flight attendants would need to take a leave to prevent furloughs, as you’ve stated you want to do no matter what it takes. Do you really think you could get 9000 to 11000 AA flight attendants to take a leave? Some folks actually come to work for the salary.
I read on the APFA website that there was going to be a leave offered to the more senior pilots trying to avoid a furlough. I even remember something about offering them salaries for the next year without them flying. I’m sure I’ll be corrected if my facts are inaccurate. If senior AA pilots take leaves, then TWA-LLC pilots wouldn’t be furloughed. However, if TWA-LLC flight attendants are furloughed, which flight attendants would fly the flights with the TWA-LLC pilots? AA crews couldn’t do it, and we’d be too short on the TWA-LLC side. So, basically, if there’s a great and disproportionate reduction of flight hours in STL due to the new juniority of the TWA-LLC pilots, I understand the reduction in TWA-LLC flight attendants. However, if senior pilots take leaves, and TWA-LLC pilots keep their jobs, and flying doesn’t have to be reduced in STL, who will work those cabins? It doesn’t really make sense.
If furloughees get recalled in seniority order to whatever base their needed at, TWA-LLC flight attendants, the more senior furloughees, would have to be trained on AA metal before returning to any AA base other than STL. A recalled furloughee could end up being trained before a more senior STL flight attendant, and could conceivably end up at a more desirable (at least in my opinion) base such as LGA. Senior AA flight crews are stuck as well, as they couldn’t transfer until everyone is back from furlough. The seniority integration agreement is fatally flawed.
On a lighter note, I think, could you please tell me how you presented the acquisition of TWA to your membership. Either you have a workforce that is in complete oblivion, or there are just a lot of mean folks out there. The four thousand of us get along with everyone, almost always. Maybe it’s because we’ve been through so much together. On more than one occasion, we’ve seen TWA hand us lemons. Collectively, we made lemonade. On the really bad days, we added vodka, but we got through it all together.
Virtually every encounter I’ve had with an AA flight crew went one of two ways. Either someone would say...Where ya based?, and when I’d explain STL was my only choice they’d claim they had no idea, and on occasion go on to say how crappy that all was. On the other occasions, they’d say nothing at all...not even a smile. At first that bothered me, but after closer observation, I noticed they treated each other equally as distantly. I try to justify it by telling myself that since the workforce is so large, there might be a lack of camaraderie, but at TWA, we always talked to strangers. Some of them became best friends of mine. And as for the pilots that wouldn’t ride on vans with us...we’ll I’ll spare APFA of that craziness, and deal with that in another way at another time.
If you explained to your membership, as should have been your obligation, that American Airlines, the number two carrier was about to become the world’s largest airline overnight, they might have been more welcoming. As recently as last week on Don Carty’s hotline, he speaks about what a great business decision the acquisition of TWA was. According to him, now while other carriers are scrambling to find alliances and making billion dollar deals...American can concentrate on the day to day operation of running the airline. The routes, gates, and landing slots now owned by American are assets that would have been impossible to obtain any other way.
Our numbers are insignificant, when mixed in with yours. For every TWA-LLC flight attendant crossing over to the AA side, there’s a new route and a new plane as well. The majority of folks would stay in STL anyway, causing absolutely no disturbance. The second largest group would probably desire LGA, a very junior base anyway. I don’t believe your membership was properly informed, and that certainly should have been job one for you.
If another American Airlines employee asks me if I’m happy, or tells me that I’m lucky, to have a job, well, I don’t know what I’ll do. Aren’t you lucky to now preside over the flight attendant union of the world’s biggest airline? That happened thanks to us. Everyone should be lucky and thankful for what they have. We’re not going to apologize for staying with our often-sinking ship. We stuck it out through thick and thin, even though at times the grass looked greener on the other side. I’d like to believe upper management of a major corporation would be proud to have employees that had such faith and belief in the company they worked for. I’d think a union would want the same strong, proud individuals as part of their membership.
Within thirty days of April 10, 2001, there was supposed to be a facilitator to assist in talks between TWA and AA’s unions. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t believe that ever happened. Mr. Carty promised quite publicly that such meetings would take place. And while we did give up our scope clause regarding mergers and acquisitions, against our will and better judgment, it’s one of the first issues discussed in your new collective bargaining agreement. It’s a great clause, but as we’ve all seen, there are ways around it. I hope your membership doesn’t feel infallible with it, because look what happened to us. It’s ironic, however, that it was so important to be a part of our contract, yet you had total disregard for ours. We thought of that quite some time ago, even before we came up with the great idea of more legroom throughout coach, our comfort class.
I’ve never seen such total disregard from one union to another. The behavior exhibited is behavior often seen between a company and a union. It makes for some really bad blood. Four thousand of us and the thousand AA flight attendants on furlough probably have many similar thoughts right about now. That’s about a quarter of the workforce. Our numbers will continue to grow.
I’m a strong supporter of unions. I worked for TWA since 1985. I could have easily become a flight attendant in 1986, but I chose not to. While that could have possibly prevented me from this round of furloughs, my personal life for the last thirteen years would not have been what it is...which, fortunately, is great. My feelings for APFA are somewhat less enthusiastic than any I’ve had in the past. The majority of us can be equally as supportive, or against, our new union.
We’re a super group of people, with a great deal of experience and knowledge. We also happen to be a whole lot of fun. There are a million ways to do a thousand things correctly. Everyone seems to want the same results...no involuntary layoffs, and folks at work that want to be there. Please let me know how that is going to be achieved, and which group, or individual, if any, is against that wonderful plan.
Again, John, thank you for your time and prompt and insightful response on, ironically, Labor Day, 2002.
ALOHA, 007
Here is a letter from a TWA LLC F/A to John Ward. It points out another major flaw in the APFA seniority intergration agreement. Nearly 1000 TWA F/As face lay off. Only leaves from the TWA LLC side will go towards saving these jobs. Over half of the work force would have to take leaves to avoid any lay offs. It would only take a little over 5% of the AA workforce taking these leaves to save these jobs, but the APFA wont let this happen. This clearly shows that the APFA TWA LLC due paying members are not being treated equally. There was a delibrate move by both AA & APFA to herd all TWA F/As into STL and set them up for slaughter. Thousands of TWA F/As have lost their jobs so that AA F/As can keep theirs. First, all of TWA F/A NYC flying was given to AA F/As saving over 1000 jobs there. Now with the next round of lay offs the TWA F/As will take another huge hit. How can up to 50% of the TWA F/As vs 2% AA F/As out of a job be even close to the Carty statement after 9/11 that the lay offs would be shared equally, between AA & TWA LLC. It is very appearent that AA just wanted TWA routes, planes, maintance bases, and not offer jobs to vitually all TWA employees. 9/11 just speed up this process. Isnt it interesting that the move to merge seniority lists will come AFTER this next round of lay offs? This effectively locks out the TWA F/As. Heres another opinion:
Steven Hammer - Sep 2, 2002
President’s Department
APFA
1004 West Euless Boulevard
Euless, Texas 76040
Attention: John Ward, President
September 2, 2002
Dear John,
Let me begin by thanking you for such a prompt response. It truly is appreciated. I believe you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and your taking the time to reply to my e-mail means a great deal. I’m sure it comes as no surprise to you that there are a great many things being said about APFA, and you in particular. I believe in getting the facts directly from the horse’s mouth, as they say, and then make judgments and opinions based solely on that.
With all that being said, I do have a few more questions and comments that I would like to have you address. As always, I try to research issues and problems that need answers for the majority of the workforce, rather than just myself. The most important concerns are those that have an impact on the largest percentage of the workforce. In this case, that workforce is the nearly four thousand TWA-LLC flight attendants now represented by APFA, the union you preside over, and are obligated to represent. As I’ve stated in the past, we bring a wealth of knowledge and experience that we’ve acquired around the world, through good times and bad times, over the cumulative 75,000 plus years that we’ve been professional flight attendants.
First of all, regarding the issue of overage leaves, since it’s the only topic we’ve touched on so far, how can the requirements be changed, either permanently or on a one time basis, due to the tragic events of 9/11, as everyone likes to put it. It should take nothing to get 1600 leaves from native Americans (and I use that term with the utmost respect), as that’s only about seven percent of the AA workforce. I’d think you could get many more than that if you wanted to. However, on the TWA side, we need 950, out of an eligible pool of about 2100. That’s right John, one out of every two to three flight attendants would need to take a leave to prevent furloughs, as you’ve stated you want to do no matter what it takes. Do you really think you could get 9000 to 11000 AA flight attendants to take a leave? Some folks actually come to work for the salary.
I read on the APFA website that there was going to be a leave offered to the more senior pilots trying to avoid a furlough. I even remember something about offering them salaries for the next year without them flying. I’m sure I’ll be corrected if my facts are inaccurate. If senior AA pilots take leaves, then TWA-LLC pilots wouldn’t be furloughed. However, if TWA-LLC flight attendants are furloughed, which flight attendants would fly the flights with the TWA-LLC pilots? AA crews couldn’t do it, and we’d be too short on the TWA-LLC side. So, basically, if there’s a great and disproportionate reduction of flight hours in STL due to the new juniority of the TWA-LLC pilots, I understand the reduction in TWA-LLC flight attendants. However, if senior pilots take leaves, and TWA-LLC pilots keep their jobs, and flying doesn’t have to be reduced in STL, who will work those cabins? It doesn’t really make sense.
If furloughees get recalled in seniority order to whatever base their needed at, TWA-LLC flight attendants, the more senior furloughees, would have to be trained on AA metal before returning to any AA base other than STL. A recalled furloughee could end up being trained before a more senior STL flight attendant, and could conceivably end up at a more desirable (at least in my opinion) base such as LGA. Senior AA flight crews are stuck as well, as they couldn’t transfer until everyone is back from furlough. The seniority integration agreement is fatally flawed.
On a lighter note, I think, could you please tell me how you presented the acquisition of TWA to your membership. Either you have a workforce that is in complete oblivion, or there are just a lot of mean folks out there. The four thousand of us get along with everyone, almost always. Maybe it’s because we’ve been through so much together. On more than one occasion, we’ve seen TWA hand us lemons. Collectively, we made lemonade. On the really bad days, we added vodka, but we got through it all together.
Virtually every encounter I’ve had with an AA flight crew went one of two ways. Either someone would say...Where ya based?, and when I’d explain STL was my only choice they’d claim they had no idea, and on occasion go on to say how crappy that all was. On the other occasions, they’d say nothing at all...not even a smile. At first that bothered me, but after closer observation, I noticed they treated each other equally as distantly. I try to justify it by telling myself that since the workforce is so large, there might be a lack of camaraderie, but at TWA, we always talked to strangers. Some of them became best friends of mine. And as for the pilots that wouldn’t ride on vans with us...we’ll I’ll spare APFA of that craziness, and deal with that in another way at another time.
If you explained to your membership, as should have been your obligation, that American Airlines, the number two carrier was about to become the world’s largest airline overnight, they might have been more welcoming. As recently as last week on Don Carty’s hotline, he speaks about what a great business decision the acquisition of TWA was. According to him, now while other carriers are scrambling to find alliances and making billion dollar deals...American can concentrate on the day to day operation of running the airline. The routes, gates, and landing slots now owned by American are assets that would have been impossible to obtain any other way.
Our numbers are insignificant, when mixed in with yours. For every TWA-LLC flight attendant crossing over to the AA side, there’s a new route and a new plane as well. The majority of folks would stay in STL anyway, causing absolutely no disturbance. The second largest group would probably desire LGA, a very junior base anyway. I don’t believe your membership was properly informed, and that certainly should have been job one for you.
If another American Airlines employee asks me if I’m happy, or tells me that I’m lucky, to have a job, well, I don’t know what I’ll do. Aren’t you lucky to now preside over the flight attendant union of the world’s biggest airline? That happened thanks to us. Everyone should be lucky and thankful for what they have. We’re not going to apologize for staying with our often-sinking ship. We stuck it out through thick and thin, even though at times the grass looked greener on the other side. I’d like to believe upper management of a major corporation would be proud to have employees that had such faith and belief in the company they worked for. I’d think a union would want the same strong, proud individuals as part of their membership.
Within thirty days of April 10, 2001, there was supposed to be a facilitator to assist in talks between TWA and AA’s unions. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t believe that ever happened. Mr. Carty promised quite publicly that such meetings would take place. And while we did give up our scope clause regarding mergers and acquisitions, against our will and better judgment, it’s one of the first issues discussed in your new collective bargaining agreement. It’s a great clause, but as we’ve all seen, there are ways around it. I hope your membership doesn’t feel infallible with it, because look what happened to us. It’s ironic, however, that it was so important to be a part of our contract, yet you had total disregard for ours. We thought of that quite some time ago, even before we came up with the great idea of more legroom throughout coach, our comfort class.
I’ve never seen such total disregard from one union to another. The behavior exhibited is behavior often seen between a company and a union. It makes for some really bad blood. Four thousand of us and the thousand AA flight attendants on furlough probably have many similar thoughts right about now. That’s about a quarter of the workforce. Our numbers will continue to grow.
I’m a strong supporter of unions. I worked for TWA since 1985. I could have easily become a flight attendant in 1986, but I chose not to. While that could have possibly prevented me from this round of furloughs, my personal life for the last thirteen years would not have been what it is...which, fortunately, is great. My feelings for APFA are somewhat less enthusiastic than any I’ve had in the past. The majority of us can be equally as supportive, or against, our new union.
We’re a super group of people, with a great deal of experience and knowledge. We also happen to be a whole lot of fun. There are a million ways to do a thousand things correctly. Everyone seems to want the same results...no involuntary layoffs, and folks at work that want to be there. Please let me know how that is going to be achieved, and which group, or individual, if any, is against that wonderful plan.
Again, John, thank you for your time and prompt and insightful response on, ironically, Labor Day, 2002.
ALOHA, 007
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #18
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/5/2002 11:15:41 AM bagsmasher wrote:
TWAFA007, would you please state what you think would have been fair to all parties?
100% company seniority?
100% occupational seniority?
The vast majority of LLCer's going to the top of the seniority lists?
Is this what you truly believe would be fair, even to original AAer's?
----------------
[/blockquote]
ALoha bagsmasher,
No, but I dont think the other extreme of, 0%, stapling is fair either. I believe that something along what an independent arbitrator decided for the TWU. This compromise would work very well for the F/As too. It would be of great benifit for AA too. If TWA F/As got 25% seniority at say STL,JFK, and maybe LAX, it would help AA get F/As to NYC who WANT to be there. I think there is a number somewhere between 0-100% that could be found that would be effective for both sides. To bad the courts have to come up with it and not negotiations between two Unions. I think the courts are going to be more generous to the TWA F/As then negotiations would have come up with, but we were never given the chance. Just IMHO.
ALOHA, 007
----------------
On 9/5/2002 11:15:41 AM bagsmasher wrote:
TWAFA007, would you please state what you think would have been fair to all parties?
100% company seniority?
100% occupational seniority?
The vast majority of LLCer's going to the top of the seniority lists?
Is this what you truly believe would be fair, even to original AAer's?
----------------
[/blockquote]
ALoha bagsmasher,
No, but I dont think the other extreme of, 0%, stapling is fair either. I believe that something along what an independent arbitrator decided for the TWU. This compromise would work very well for the F/As too. It would be of great benifit for AA too. If TWA F/As got 25% seniority at say STL,JFK, and maybe LAX, it would help AA get F/As to NYC who WANT to be there. I think there is a number somewhere between 0-100% that could be found that would be effective for both sides. To bad the courts have to come up with it and not negotiations between two Unions. I think the courts are going to be more generous to the TWA F/As then negotiations would have come up with, but we were never given the chance. Just IMHO.
ALOHA, 007
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #19
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/5/2002 11
26 AM FA Mikey wrote:
Want an interesting anwser. Ask a formew TW person what they think. The ones who left and started over. I Have yet to talk to one who believes that anyone from TW deserves more than what they were given.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha Mike,
What about other Union members? Have you talk to anyone not an APFA member? I have. I have talk to just about every other airline F/A & Pilot union member, NYPD, NYFD, Masons, Electricians,and many other UNION members and not one believes what APFA has done to the TWA F/As is right. Not ONE! Unions are supposed to support Unions and work with other Unions to achieve mutual goals. No Union, execept APFA, is a stand alone Union. We are all suppose to be on big Brotherhood with mutual respect for all other Unions.
Its not the stapling, which they ALL believe is wrong, that erks them, it is the pure arrogance, self center, and isolationist, attitude that the APFA took by refusing to even meet just once with the TWA F/A representing Union, the IAM. I believe, that this is the first time in history that a Union fail to talk to another Union in any merger or buyout. Please dont tell me APFA didnt have to. Its a matter of respect.
APFA has told all other Unions that they dont believe in the frateranal Brotherhood of Unions. That they do not understand the fundelmentals of what it REALLY means to be a Union. As an APFA member I am ashame at the attitude of APFA Leaders and plan to do what I can to change it. They have failed to educate its memebers as to what a REAl Union is all about. If only APFA had just had one meeting with the IAM and then said staple it would have had some respect. The APFA attitude is that we only represent AA F/As, thats all we care about. We are independent and stand alone. We dont need any other Unions or do we need to talk to any. APFA shouldnt call itself a Union but the AA APFA Club.
Go ahead Mike go ask any other Union member out there if APFA was RIGHT not to talk to the TWA F/A Union and the stapling was fair. See what they think. I know you wont because you are an APFA member and the other Unions dont count.
I already know your responce. XLine. Oh by the way Happy Belated LABOUR Day!
ALOHA, 007
----------------
On 9/5/2002 11
26 AM FA Mikey wrote: Want an interesting anwser. Ask a formew TW person what they think. The ones who left and started over. I Have yet to talk to one who believes that anyone from TW deserves more than what they were given.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha Mike,
What about other Union members? Have you talk to anyone not an APFA member? I have. I have talk to just about every other airline F/A & Pilot union member, NYPD, NYFD, Masons, Electricians,and many other UNION members and not one believes what APFA has done to the TWA F/As is right. Not ONE! Unions are supposed to support Unions and work with other Unions to achieve mutual goals. No Union, execept APFA, is a stand alone Union. We are all suppose to be on big Brotherhood with mutual respect for all other Unions.
Its not the stapling, which they ALL believe is wrong, that erks them, it is the pure arrogance, self center, and isolationist, attitude that the APFA took by refusing to even meet just once with the TWA F/A representing Union, the IAM. I believe, that this is the first time in history that a Union fail to talk to another Union in any merger or buyout. Please dont tell me APFA didnt have to. Its a matter of respect.
APFA has told all other Unions that they dont believe in the frateranal Brotherhood of Unions. That they do not understand the fundelmentals of what it REALLY means to be a Union. As an APFA member I am ashame at the attitude of APFA Leaders and plan to do what I can to change it. They have failed to educate its memebers as to what a REAl Union is all about. If only APFA had just had one meeting with the IAM and then said staple it would have had some respect. The APFA attitude is that we only represent AA F/As, thats all we care about. We are independent and stand alone. We dont need any other Unions or do we need to talk to any. APFA shouldnt call itself a Union but the AA APFA Club.
Go ahead Mike go ask any other Union member out there if APFA was RIGHT not to talk to the TWA F/A Union and the stapling was fair. See what they think. I know you wont because you are an APFA member and the other Unions dont count.
I already know your responce. XLine. Oh by the way Happy Belated LABOUR Day!
ALOHA, 007
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #20
Aloha,
Here is an example of what the APFA membership thinks a Union is all about. This is from another thread.
calflyboy:
Historically, when two unionized airline seniority lists were to integrated a standard was used. The two unions would sit down and hammer out some sort of integration agreement, and take any unresolved issues to arbitration. Then the lists were merged after a decision was rendered, typically. I know this is a gross simplification of the whole process. Throughout the many mergers/acquisitions in the airline industry seniority was respected in some degree by unionized groups regardless whether they were independent or AFL-CIO afiliated unions. Sometimes seniority was respected even when a group was not unionized.
Mike & APFA Speak:
Historically, maybe so. Today things are much different than the 70's and allegany/mohawk merger. Ultimately its up to the membership of a given union, what course to take in the combining of 2 labor groups. AFL-CIO will do it one way. Non afilliated unions maybe a different way. Just because everyone else does it this way. Doesn't mean we have to as well.
Mike says, just because EVERYONE (Unions) does it this way. Doesnt mean we have to... You are right Mike if APFA doesnt want to act like every other Union then should it really be called a Union?
PS. ALOHA calflyboy!
It was great to meet you and share a beer in Mainz. Small World ugh. Its nice to know that you represent the vast majority, if not all, of Union members out there that feel what the APFA has done to the TWA is wrong and not very Union like. Thanks for your support. Next round is on me, if its still happy hour. You are right about a nonunion airline giving a Union airline F/As seniority. DAL, nonunion, gave seniority to the AFA Western F/As. Its sad that a Company would give seniority and a union, would not. Then again they dont do things the same way as, everyone else, does. To bad.
ALOHA, 007
Here is an example of what the APFA membership thinks a Union is all about. This is from another thread.
calflyboy:
Historically, when two unionized airline seniority lists were to integrated a standard was used. The two unions would sit down and hammer out some sort of integration agreement, and take any unresolved issues to arbitration. Then the lists were merged after a decision was rendered, typically. I know this is a gross simplification of the whole process. Throughout the many mergers/acquisitions in the airline industry seniority was respected in some degree by unionized groups regardless whether they were independent or AFL-CIO afiliated unions. Sometimes seniority was respected even when a group was not unionized.
Mike & APFA Speak:
Historically, maybe so. Today things are much different than the 70's and allegany/mohawk merger. Ultimately its up to the membership of a given union, what course to take in the combining of 2 labor groups. AFL-CIO will do it one way. Non afilliated unions maybe a different way. Just because everyone else does it this way. Doesn't mean we have to as well.
Mike says, just because EVERYONE (Unions) does it this way. Doesnt mean we have to... You are right Mike if APFA doesnt want to act like every other Union then should it really be called a Union?
PS. ALOHA calflyboy!
It was great to meet you and share a beer in Mainz. Small World ugh. Its nice to know that you represent the vast majority, if not all, of Union members out there that feel what the APFA has done to the TWA is wrong and not very Union like. Thanks for your support. Next round is on me, if its still happy hour. You are right about a nonunion airline giving a Union airline F/As seniority. DAL, nonunion, gave seniority to the AFA Western F/As. Its sad that a Company would give seniority and a union, would not. Then again they dont do things the same way as, everyone else, does. To bad.
ALOHA, 007
TWAFA007
Please keep in mind that in the case of the TWU/IAM arbitrion ruling, TWALLCers were given either 4/10/01, 25% or 100%, depending where they are based and the TWAllCers affected by this ruling are not happy with it. They still want 100%, all and everything.
Please keep in mind that in the case of the TWU/IAM arbitrion ruling, TWALLCers were given either 4/10/01, 25% or 100%, depending where they are based and the TWAllCers affected by this ruling are not happy with it. They still want 100%, all and everything.
gogogadget
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I have talked to other union groups. They are not stupid in the least. The too read and followed the downward sprial of TWA. They know the issues. And I am sure if you ask them, wether it be FD or PD or Hotel worker or any other union, they realize the significance of experience in any occupation. They also will tell you that they would be proud to work with you, but that they also believe that because you have this experience you are any better than they are and that you should be entitled to positions that they worked for at their company. Most union people that I know in the AUTO industry ,and that is heavily unionized, they understand that 20 years at Detroit Deisel is just that, 20 years at Detroit Deisel. Period.
I just get upset at people that think there experince entitles them to the world in this industry. It does in a free market society but not in a unionized industry. The good thing is that a lot of you TWA types that are griping so much are hopefully older and will eventually retire even after the economy recovers and we are all working again.
I hope we can gain from your experince, and learn from it no matter what your senority is. As a pilot I fly with guys that have many years experince in the Left seat and with the company. That does not mean that I dont have the same experience. Mine just came from a different place. Two 45+ year old pilots in a cockpit means a plathora of experience between the both of them. At American FO are hired to be Captains, and many of us have been Captains on the same or Larger equipment at other carriers. The position of Captain is just an entitlement from your experience at American, Not a Right of Experience.
The same applies to F/A's, Your schedules and your vacations and your trip selections just like the pilots are an entitlement because of your time with American, Not a Right of your Experience. What Can any one of you do that an American employee cant do? The economy will recover and we, AMERICAN AIRLINES EMPLOYEES, will get our jobs back.
The good thing is that we are unionized and unlike our counterparts in other business, we get recall rights. All we have to do is make due durring the interium.
I just get upset at people that think there experince entitles them to the world in this industry. It does in a free market society but not in a unionized industry. The good thing is that a lot of you TWA types that are griping so much are hopefully older and will eventually retire even after the economy recovers and we are all working again.
I hope we can gain from your experince, and learn from it no matter what your senority is. As a pilot I fly with guys that have many years experince in the Left seat and with the company. That does not mean that I dont have the same experience. Mine just came from a different place. Two 45+ year old pilots in a cockpit means a plathora of experience between the both of them. At American FO are hired to be Captains, and many of us have been Captains on the same or Larger equipment at other carriers. The position of Captain is just an entitlement from your experience at American, Not a Right of Experience.
The same applies to F/A's, Your schedules and your vacations and your trip selections just like the pilots are an entitlement because of your time with American, Not a Right of your Experience. What Can any one of you do that an American employee cant do? The economy will recover and we, AMERICAN AIRLINES EMPLOYEES, will get our jobs back.
The good thing is that we are unionized and unlike our counterparts in other business, we get recall rights. All we have to do is make due durring the interium.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #23
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 2:00:34 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:
A bit off topic here, but I've always wondered why TWA and their lawyers were not bright enough to figure a way out of uncle Carl's grasp the way AMR used the bankryptcy laws?
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[/blockquote]
Aloha FrugalFlyer,
Uncle Carl had good lawyers and TWA had dopes. The contract that got TWA out of bankrupcy and gave Carl the ticket agreement, he was the largest debt holder, forbade TWA from using bankrupcy to get out of TWA the agreement with the devil. Thats why an outside party, AA, had to do it. The whole AA/TWA bankrupcy thing was Cartys idea, Compton with his AA degree wasnt smart enough, he was just a pilot. TWA Unions had hook up with Boeing and others and were working on their own plan to keep TWA going, but it included throwing out the intire BOD. They were worthless and had driven TWA to the breaking point. When they heard that they, the BOD & Compton, quickly sold us out to AA so they could all get there golden parachutes and sell their employees to AA as indentured slaves, AA & the Unions could do what ever they wanted to do with them. Compton & the BOD didnt care what happen to the employees as long as they got their million$. I wonder how Compton sleeps at night these days?
FrugalFlyer I am sorry that you and other pax have heard decent among the ranks. This is very unprofessional. Once the airplane door is close so should the mouths. There are plenty of opportunities for fellow employees to discuss,politics, outside the workplace.
ALOHA, 007
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On 9/5/2002 2:00:34 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:
A bit off topic here, but I've always wondered why TWA and their lawyers were not bright enough to figure a way out of uncle Carl's grasp the way AMR used the bankryptcy laws?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha FrugalFlyer,
Uncle Carl had good lawyers and TWA had dopes. The contract that got TWA out of bankrupcy and gave Carl the ticket agreement, he was the largest debt holder, forbade TWA from using bankrupcy to get out of TWA the agreement with the devil. Thats why an outside party, AA, had to do it. The whole AA/TWA bankrupcy thing was Cartys idea, Compton with his AA degree wasnt smart enough, he was just a pilot. TWA Unions had hook up with Boeing and others and were working on their own plan to keep TWA going, but it included throwing out the intire BOD. They were worthless and had driven TWA to the breaking point. When they heard that they, the BOD & Compton, quickly sold us out to AA so they could all get there golden parachutes and sell their employees to AA as indentured slaves, AA & the Unions could do what ever they wanted to do with them. Compton & the BOD didnt care what happen to the employees as long as they got their million$. I wonder how Compton sleeps at night these days?
FrugalFlyer I am sorry that you and other pax have heard decent among the ranks. This is very unprofessional. Once the airplane door is close so should the mouths. There are plenty of opportunities for fellow employees to discuss,politics, outside the workplace.
ALOHA, 007
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #24
[blockquote]
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On 9/6/2002 11
36 AM BeenThere wrote:
TWAFA007
Please keep in mind that in the case of the TWU/IAM arbitrion ruling, TWALLCers were given either 4/10/01, 25% or 100%, depending where they are based and the TWAllCers affected by this ruling are not happy with it. They still want 100%, all and everything.
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[/blockquote]
ALoha BeenThere,
Thats the beauty of an arbitration ruling. Both sides can blame the arbitrator and not each other for their fates. An arbitrator has done a good job when he has equal numbers on both sides mad and glad, its a fine line. There will aways people who will aways be mad, no matter what, but for most of us we just accept and move on when an neutral party makes a decision. Thats what the TWA LLC F/As are waiting for. For now TWA/AA F/A intergration has been just a little one sided.
ALOHA, 007
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On 9/6/2002 11
36 AM BeenThere wrote: TWAFA007
Please keep in mind that in the case of the TWU/IAM arbitrion ruling, TWALLCers were given either 4/10/01, 25% or 100%, depending where they are based and the TWAllCers affected by this ruling are not happy with it. They still want 100%, all and everything.
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[/blockquote]
ALoha BeenThere,
Thats the beauty of an arbitration ruling. Both sides can blame the arbitrator and not each other for their fates. An arbitrator has done a good job when he has equal numbers on both sides mad and glad, its a fine line. There will aways people who will aways be mad, no matter what, but for most of us we just accept and move on when an neutral party makes a decision. Thats what the TWA LLC F/As are waiting for. For now TWA/AA F/A intergration has been just a little one sided.
ALOHA, 007
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #25
Aloha gogogadget,
Ask any pilot who is not part of your union and they will disagree with you. How do you expain that just about every other merger or buyout, airline groups respected each other and seniority was given? What about DAL a nonunion airline for the F/As giving a union airline, Western Airlines, seniority rights? Is everyone else just wrong and you are right. Or maybe......
ALOHA, 007
Ask any pilot who is not part of your union and they will disagree with you. How do you expain that just about every other merger or buyout, airline groups respected each other and seniority was given? What about DAL a nonunion airline for the F/As giving a union airline, Western Airlines, seniority rights? Is everyone else just wrong and you are right. Or maybe......
ALOHA, 007
B
bagsmasher
Guest
I read one time what Compton got, and it was not a golden parachute. I was more in line what a retiring AA Captain would get.
Also I don't care what Carty may have said about layoffs being shared equally. He has no control over occupational seniority issues, so it's out of his hands who gets laid off.
Let's say we fast forward into the future, and AA is going under, and WN wants to buy it to jump into the International market. AA declares BK and WN picks it up cheap in BK court. I wouldn't expect WN to screw their own workforce by giving us our AA seniority. We are competitors, and if I wanted WN seniority, I should have gone to work for them years ago. Both WN and AA's ramp are represented by the TWU, and I still wouldn't think it would be right for an AAer to go ahead of a original WNer in that scenerio.
Also I don't care what Carty may have said about layoffs being shared equally. He has no control over occupational seniority issues, so it's out of his hands who gets laid off.
Let's say we fast forward into the future, and AA is going under, and WN wants to buy it to jump into the International market. AA declares BK and WN picks it up cheap in BK court. I wouldn't expect WN to screw their own workforce by giving us our AA seniority. We are competitors, and if I wanted WN seniority, I should have gone to work for them years ago. Both WN and AA's ramp are represented by the TWU, and I still wouldn't think it would be right for an AAer to go ahead of a original WNer in that scenerio.
B
bagsmasher
Guest
I know that would never happen because WN takes care of their own, and would never even get into that situation. If it were to happen though, whoever it would be that WN buys in BK court, WN would make sure they protected their own employees first. How much of a reward would it be for their own employees work hard, and drive the competition out of business, only to see those ex-employees go ahead of them on the seniority lists? Doesn't make any sense at all to me.
FrugalFlyer
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 254
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/7/2002 10:28:41 AM TWAFA007 wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/5/2002 2:00:34 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:
A bit off topic here, but I've always wondered why TWA and their lawyers were not bright enough to figure a way out of uncle Carl's grasp the way AMR used the bankryptcy laws?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha FrugalFlyer,
Uncle Carl had good lawyers and TWA had dopes. The contract that got TWA out of bankrupcy and gave Carl the ticket agreement, he was the largest debt holder, forbade TWA from using bankrupcy to get out of TWA the agreement with the devil. Thats why an outside party, AA, had to do it. The whole AA/TWA bankrupcy thing was Cartys idea, Compton with his AA degree wasnt smart enough, he was just a pilot. TWA Unions had hook up with Boeing and others and were working on their own plan to keep TWA going, but it included throwing out the intire BOD. They were worthless and had driven TWA to the breaking point. When they heard that they, the BOD & Compton, quickly sold us out to AA so they could all get there golden parachutes and sell their employees to AA as indentured slaves, AA & the Unions could do what ever they wanted to do with them. Compton & the BOD didnt care what happen to the employees as long as they got their million$. I wonder how Compton sleeps at night these days?
ALOHA, 007
----------------
[/blockquote]
007,
I don't know if the term Compton and the BOD sold out the TW employees is the proper term to use. Here's my theory - and it's only a theory but here it goes. I believe that Compton (& BOD) realized that TWA has been shrunk to the point of no return and began shopping the airline around to the other majors. I would imagine that TWA realized this in the late 1990s when most airlines were making huge profits and TWA was reporting losses (most likely due to Ichans ticket deal and IAM workrules + 1998 contract).
NWA, being the most conservative probably was not interested
UAL also said no thanks as there was nothing TWA could offer to the UAL network
CO, DL and AA were most likely interested in TW slots at DCA, LGA JFK and not too much interested in anything else
US was probably interested as STL would give them the western hub they never had - but US probalby walked away for 3 reasons:
1) Ichans ticket deal
2) Fleet non-commonality (US was going all airbus)
3) nightmares that SWA would slaughter US/TW in STL just like in BWI
Then UAL + US announced their intention to merge and AMR had to do something. (Actually I don't know if AMR had to do anything, but I digress.) So, AMR considered TWA again. To AMR all the slots TW had at JFK, LGA, DCA were of some value, as well as STL - a connecting hub to take the pressure off at ORD and DFW. The problem was Ichans ticketing agreement, but I guess a good lawyer can get around that as well.
Would TWA have survived as a stand-alone carrier? IMHO it would have been very tough as the company was low on cash in the spring of 2001, the economy was slowing down, then the tragic events of 9/11. After 9/11, I think it would have been tough for TWA to remain a solvent company. BK filing would have probably followed, then ***et liquidation - and, AA would have probably taken some of the TWA ***ests in any case (along with DL and CO).
So, in no means do I wish the former TW employees or 'original' AA employees (both groups now AA employees)any ill will, I'm just trying to say this infighting is starting to leave a not so stellar impression with some customers.
----------------
On 9/7/2002 10:28:41 AM TWAFA007 wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/5/2002 2:00:34 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:
A bit off topic here, but I've always wondered why TWA and their lawyers were not bright enough to figure a way out of uncle Carl's grasp the way AMR used the bankryptcy laws?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha FrugalFlyer,
Uncle Carl had good lawyers and TWA had dopes. The contract that got TWA out of bankrupcy and gave Carl the ticket agreement, he was the largest debt holder, forbade TWA from using bankrupcy to get out of TWA the agreement with the devil. Thats why an outside party, AA, had to do it. The whole AA/TWA bankrupcy thing was Cartys idea, Compton with his AA degree wasnt smart enough, he was just a pilot. TWA Unions had hook up with Boeing and others and were working on their own plan to keep TWA going, but it included throwing out the intire BOD. They were worthless and had driven TWA to the breaking point. When they heard that they, the BOD & Compton, quickly sold us out to AA so they could all get there golden parachutes and sell their employees to AA as indentured slaves, AA & the Unions could do what ever they wanted to do with them. Compton & the BOD didnt care what happen to the employees as long as they got their million$. I wonder how Compton sleeps at night these days?
ALOHA, 007
----------------
[/blockquote]
007,
I don't know if the term Compton and the BOD sold out the TW employees is the proper term to use. Here's my theory - and it's only a theory but here it goes. I believe that Compton (& BOD) realized that TWA has been shrunk to the point of no return and began shopping the airline around to the other majors. I would imagine that TWA realized this in the late 1990s when most airlines were making huge profits and TWA was reporting losses (most likely due to Ichans ticket deal and IAM workrules + 1998 contract).
NWA, being the most conservative probably was not interested
UAL also said no thanks as there was nothing TWA could offer to the UAL network
CO, DL and AA were most likely interested in TW slots at DCA, LGA JFK and not too much interested in anything else
US was probably interested as STL would give them the western hub they never had - but US probalby walked away for 3 reasons:
1) Ichans ticket deal
2) Fleet non-commonality (US was going all airbus)
3) nightmares that SWA would slaughter US/TW in STL just like in BWI
Then UAL + US announced their intention to merge and AMR had to do something. (Actually I don't know if AMR had to do anything, but I digress.) So, AMR considered TWA again. To AMR all the slots TW had at JFK, LGA, DCA were of some value, as well as STL - a connecting hub to take the pressure off at ORD and DFW. The problem was Ichans ticketing agreement, but I guess a good lawyer can get around that as well.
Would TWA have survived as a stand-alone carrier? IMHO it would have been very tough as the company was low on cash in the spring of 2001, the economy was slowing down, then the tragic events of 9/11. After 9/11, I think it would have been tough for TWA to remain a solvent company. BK filing would have probably followed, then ***et liquidation - and, AA would have probably taken some of the TWA ***ests in any case (along with DL and CO).
So, in no means do I wish the former TW employees or 'original' AA employees (both groups now AA employees)any ill will, I'm just trying to say this infighting is starting to leave a not so stellar impression with some customers.
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